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 Post subject: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:56 am 


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I've been meaning to collocate such a list for a few years now, yet always found reasons for prorogation - I intended to describe the precise nature of these exploits in detail, I'll just stick to curt descriptions to preserve my sanity for obvious reasons; if you're interested in a particular game, I'll happily elucidate the precise circumstances!

As many weatherbeaten, grizzled 16-bit veterans know, infinite scoring opportunities are rather the rule than the exceptions with this particular era of games. That doesn't necessarily invalidate playing them for score (either by ignoring those possibilities or by indulging them if they happen to demand some adroitness), it might be interesting for some of you to know in advance all the same.

I've not thoroughly investigated each and every game, hence the appendices with potential offenders. I would also like to note that some of those exploits are much more significant than others: you'd have to spend countless hours to materially increase your score in e.g. Dangerous Seed, Dead Moon or Hawk F-123 whereas leeching in Gleylancer, Rayxanber III or Zero Wing MD is a lucrative affair compared to the points you earn under regular conditions. Some of those listed utilizations are moreover purely hypothetical; I'm pretty sure you can't realistically milk bosses in Deep Blue forever without either hurting them or getting killed in the process, but it is at least theoretically possible.


The descriptions should be fairly self-explanatory, here's a quick legend nonetheless:

(Mid-)Boss milking: a (mid-)boss fires destructible projectiles/has accompanying goons which can be destroyed for points, there is no time-out preventing players from doing so indefinitely

Checkpoint milking: repeating a certain checkpoint offers such a high reward that you'll gain at least one extra live in the process, enabling you to repeat it ad infinitum

Stage milking: a stage either scrolls interminably unless a certain condition is fulfilled or it stops scrolling for a similar reason, likewise facilitating killing enemies forever

Games I consider to be merely theoretically possible are put in italics, interesting/demanding cases in bold letters.

The color coding works as such:

- If a game is put in green letters, the milking possibilites are so unrewarding (either in general or compared to the risks it entails) that it almost doesn't matter. If you were to spend countless hours, you might make a perceptible profit, but you'd have to go out of your way to do so.

- An orange hue indicates a game where milking will yield respectable results at least after a while, even though there might be risk involved. You might make a mistake after some time and/or the process is still fairly tedious, there is a substantial difference between exerting this sort of milking and not doing it, however.

- A red font is reserved for those specimens that are without a doubt irreparably broken. The milking exploit is so lucrative that there is an immediate difference between doing it and just playing the game regularly and/or you can perform the trick even without being present just by utilizing a safe spot somewhere.

If you can confirm some of those suspects or know of some other game, please say so!


PCE - HuCard

Aero Blasters (boss milking; stage 3)
Atomic Robo-Kid Special (stage milking; basically everywhere)
Bouken Danshaku Don: The Lost Sun-Heart (boss milking, stage milking, checkpoint milking; a few in case of the boss milking, such as the first, stage 2 regarding the stage milking, stage 3 for the checkpoint milking)
Coryoon (boss milking; stage 6, also power-up storks at all of them)
Cyber Core (checkpoint milking in conjunction with random extra lives; final stage)
Darius Alpha (boss milking; all of them by trying to destroy time-out cubes)
Darius Plus (boss milking; all of them by trying to destroy time-out cubes)
Dead Moon (boss milking, midboss milking; stage 3, stage 4 for the former, stage 5 for the latter)
Deep Blue (boss milking; all of them)
Download (boss milking; stage 5-1)
Dragon Spirit (boss milking; stage 5)
Fantasy Zone (stage milking; theoretically everywhere)
Final Soldier (boss milking; stage 1)
Formation Armed F (boss milking; stage 2)
Gunhed (midboss milking; stage 3)
Hana Tahka Daka!? (stage milking; hidden stages)
Heavy Unit (boss milking; stage 4)
Hyper Dyne Side Arms (boss milking; various, such as stage 1 & stage 3)
Kiki Kaikai (stage milking; various places)
Kyuukyoku Tiger (checkpoint milking; double K.O. on the final boss)
Magical Chase (boss milking; stage 2, first phase)
Ordyne (boss milking; stage 5, stage 6)
Override (boss milking; stage 1)
Paranoia (checkpoint milking; double K.O. on the final boss)
Parodius Da! (checkpoint milking; double K.O. on the final boss)
PC Denjin - Punkic Cyborgs (boss milking; various, such as stage 1 & stage 2)
Power Gate (boss milking; final boss)
Psycho Chaser (boss milking; stage 3, stage 4, stage 6)
Rock-On (stage milking; everywhere)
Saint Dragon (checkpoint milking in conjunction with boss milking; in particular the stage 2 boss milking)
Salamander (checkpoint milking; final stage, before the escape)
Soldier Blade (boss milking; stage 1)
Super Star Soldier (boss milking; stage 2)
Toilet Kids (boss milking; stage 2)
Violent Soldier (checkpoint milking; double K.O. on the final boss)
W-Ring - The Double Rings (midboss milking; gate before the final boss)
Xevious (Fardraut Mode, boss milking; final boss)

Currently unsuspicious titles:
Spoiler: show
1943 Kai
Burning Angels
Daisenpuu
Detana!! TwinBee
Dragon Saber
Final Blaster
Galaga '88
Gokuraku Chuka Taisen
Gradius
Image Fight
Mr. Heli no Daibouken
P-47: The Freedom Fighter
Rabio Lepus Special
Raiden
R-Type
Tatsujin
Terra Cresta II
Toy Shop Boys
Xevious (Arcade Mode)

PCE - CD

Ai Cho Aniki (boss milking; by using an invincibility glitch/exploit explained here, you can milk bosses with goons indefinitely, such as the one in 1-3)
Avenger (boss milking; stage 2)
CD Denjin - Rockabilly Tengoku (stage milking; Factory stage)
Cho Aniki (boss milking; stage 1)
Cotton - Fantastic Night Dreams (boss milking; stage 1)
God Panic (boss milking; final boss)
Hawk F-123 (boss milking; stage 5)
Image Fight II (boss milking; stage 9)
Hyper Dyne Side Arms Special (Standard Mode, boss milking; various, such as stage 1 & stage 3; Before Christ Mode, boss milking; stage 1, stage 3)
L-Dis (boss milking; stage 3)
Nexzr (boss milking; stage 1)
Rayxanber II (boss milking; stage 2)
Rayxanber III (checkpoint milking; final boss)
Seirei Senshi Spriggan ((mid-)boss milking in the sense that you can reap those periodically appearing power-ups for points; all of them)
Star Parodier (checkpoint milking; stage 7, first checkpoint)
Super Darius (boss milking; all of them by trying to destroy time-out cubes)
Sylphia (midboss milking, boss milking; various, particularly the fourth boss)
Terra Forming (boss milking; various, namely the final one)

Currently unsuspicious titles:
Spoiler: show
Choujikuu Yousai Macross 2036
Daisenpuu Custom
Download 2
Forgotten Worlds
Gate of Thunder
Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire
Gradius II
Hellfire S
Kiaidan 00
R-Type Complete CD
Spriggan Mark 2 - Re-Terraform Project
Steam-Heart's
Summer Carnival '92 - Alzadick
Super Darius II
Super Raiden
Winds of Thunder
Zero Wing

Mega Drive

Adventurous Boy (shoddy programming/stage milking; everywhere & anytime)
Aero Blasters (boss milking; stage 3)
Atomic Robo-Kid (stage milking; basically everywhere)
Battle Mania (midboss milking, boss milking; stage 3 & final boss, respectively)
Battle Mania Daiginjou (theoretically in several instances, but it's nigh impossible to not counterstop the game in the first place)
Battle Squadron (stage milking; everywhere on the overworld)
Chelnov (boss milking; stage 3)
Crying (boss milking; all of them, particularly the final boss)
Curse (boss milking, although it eventually requires checkpoint milking, too; final boss/checkpoint)
Dangerous Seed (boss milking; stage 1, stage 3, stage 4)
Darius II (boss milking; Grand Octopus, Yamato)
Eliminate Down (boss milking; stage 2, stage 3, stage 4)
Gadget Twins (boss milking, midboss milking; stage 1, stage 5 for the former, stage 6 for the latter)
Gleylancer (boss milking, checkpoint milking; stage 9 on both accounts)
Gynoug (boss milking; stage 5)
Heavy Unit (boss milking; stage 1 and during the refight in stage 5)
Insector X (boss milking; stage 4)
Master of Weapon (boss milking; you can destroy power-up carriers indefinitely during all but the final one, can be used to great effect in stages 2 & 5)
Mega SWIV (boss milking; first boss, second boss, fifth boss, final boss)
Musha Aleste (stage milking/midboss milking/scoring glitch; stage 1 & stage 2, respectively)
Phelios (boss milking; stage 4, perhaps final boss)
Senjou no Ookami II (Original Mode, stage milking; basically everywhere)
Super Fantasy Zone (stage milking; theoretically everywhere)
Task Force Harrier EX (boss milking; stage 1)
Thunderbolt II (boss milking; stage 6)
Thunder Force II (stage milking; all the overhead stages)
Thunder Force IV (stage milking; Strite)
Twinkle Tale (stage milking; stage 3, final stage)
Undeadline (boss milking; Drain stage)
Uzu Geobukseon (boss milking; all except the fourth)
Vapor Trail (boss milking; stage 1)
Verytex (boss milking; stage 5, final boss)
Viewpoint (checkpoint milking; final checkpoint, final stage)
XDR - X-Dazedly-Ray (checkpoint milking; final checkpoint on stage 5 for as long as you grab the extend)
Xenon 2 Megablast (stage milking; as early as stage 1, probably in countless other places)
Zero Wing (checkpoint milking; last checkpoint, last stage)
Zombies Ate My Neighbors (stage milking; basically everywhere)

Suspects
Darwin 4081 (almost inhuman play might enable infinite checkpoint milking...)
Super Airwolf (boss milking; possibly during the boss fights on both Cuba missions, the nullibiety of a score display during a stage makes it hard to determine whether that actually awards points or not)

Currently unsuspicious titles:
Spoiler: show
Arrow Flash
Daisenpuu
Divine Sealing
Earth Defense/The Earth Defend
Elemental Master
Fire Mustang
Forgotten Worlds
Gaiares
Granada
Hellfire
Koutetsu Teikoku
Kyuukyoku Tiger
Magic Girl
Raiden Densetsu
Same! Same! Same!
Slap Fight
Sol-Deace
Tatsujin
Thunder Force III
Uchuu Senkan Gomora
V-V
Whip Rush

Mega CD

Bari-Arm (boss milking; final boss)
Dennin Aleste (boss milking; penultimate boss - also via carriers (see Spriggan) everywhere)

Currently unsuspicious titles:
Spoiler: show
Keio Yuugekitai
Silpheed
Sol-Feace
Winds of Thunder

SFC

Archer MacLean's Super Dropzone (stage milking; everywhere)
Area 88 (stage milking/repetition; convoy stages)
Axelay (boss milking; final boss)
Choujikuu Yousai Macross: Scrambled Valkyrie (boss milking; stage 5)
Daioh Gale (boss milking/checkpoint milking; all of them except the fourth & final boss, respectively)
Darius Force (boss milking; zone H)
Flying Hero: Bugyuru no Daibouken (boss milking; stage 5)
Kiki Kaikai: Tsukiyo Soushi (boss milking; stage 2, final boss)
Märchen Adventure Cotton 100% (midboss milking; stage 3)
Parodius Da! (checkpoint milking; double K.O. on the final boss)
Phalanx (boss milking; stage 7)
R-Type III: The Third Lightning (midboss milking; portal before the final boss)
Raiden Densetsu (scoring glitch; boss of stage 7, only works in the SFC version)
Rendering Ranger R² (stage milking; stage 5)
Strike Gunner S.T.G (midboss milking; stage 3)
Super Aleste (checkpoint milking; penultimate checkpoint in the final stage)
Super SWIV (boss milking; first boss, fourth boss, final boss)
Thunder Spirits (boss milking; stage 5)
Uchuu no Kishi: Tekkaman Blade (midboss milking; stage 2)
Zombies Ate My Neighbors (stage milking; basically everywhere)

Suspect
Cosmo Gang: The Video (boss milking; final boss)

Currently unsuspicious titles:
Spoiler: show
Acrobat Mission
BioMetal
BlaZeon: The Bio-Cyborg Challenge
Darius Twin
Dimension Force
Gokujou Parodius
Gradius III
Hector '87
Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius
Kidou Soukou Dion
Kiki Kaikai: Nazo no Kuro Manto
Pop'n TwinBee
SD Kidou Senshi Gundam 2
SD Kidou Senshi Gundam: V Sakusen Shidou
Sonic Wings
Spriggan Powered
Star Force
Star Soldier
Super E.D.F.: Earth Defense Force
Super R-Type
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Last edited by Perikles on Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:13 pm, edited 36 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:47 pm 


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MD Zero Wing's checkpoint milking is particularly bad at the final boss. Kill the 13 UFOs it sends out and you'll get 2 or 3 extends. Die, repeat until your Mega Drive/Genesis blows a cap.

You can add Super R-Type to the list for checkpoint milking (stage milking?), stage 4 is particular is really easy to recover on and grants loads of power-ups.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:56 pm 


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This is kind of an interesting topic, why not expand it beyond 16-bit to 8- and 32-bit systems while at it? That would probably require much more input from other members, though.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:23 pm 


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Thanks a lot for compiling this list! :)

Don't have an ad-hoc overview of the milking circumstances in the games you listed - did you both incorporate cases of infinite milking (at least theoretically) and milking opportunities that "merely" provide a lucrative boost to your score, but are of a more ephemeral nature?

I can add one more game to the list: Hellfire (MD) - you can milk the big green ships before the endboss in the 6th stage that give 15k points each. You can prolong this for for quite a while due to the lives earned this way, but not ad infinitum if I remember correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:29 pm 


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Might as well make a list of games where it isn't broken.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:29 pm 


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^ Thinking through my question a bit more :lol: , I probably don't go out on a limb with the assumption that non-infinite checkpoint milking is a viable option in the lion's share of 16bit shmups? So yes, those cases should perhaps not be acommodated for here (which I don't think you did, following your preface).


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:24 pm 


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Doing eminent work, as ever. :cool: This will be a handy resource when revisiting the generation in search of score-minded shooting! Can I humbly request this be the thread's unofficial theme tune? Image

"Can we be responsible... is someone keeping score?!" :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:28 pm 


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Thought of a few more, namely Darius II (MD): while you will get killed extremely soon due to the time-out cubes, you could milk a few bosses forever on paper regardless. Nothing of practical relevance, but noteworthy.

6t8k wrote:
Don't have an ad-hoc overview of the milking circumstances in the games you listed - did you both incorporate cases of infinite milking (at least theoretically) and milking opportunities that "merely" provide a lucrative boost to your score, but are of a more ephemeral nature?

I would like to restrict the list to games where only infinite milking is feasible, and all titles on the list are indeed of the selfsame nature. Expanding the scope in favour of substantial milking would certainly lead to a lot of sophistry/semantics (what is the threshold?) and would furthermore probably mean that we'd end up with every 16-bit shmup in existence. :mrgreen: However, feel free to mention all sorts of inconspicuous opportunities in other games if you know them, I didn't even think of Hellfire's potential regarding checkpoint milking, for example!

Consequently, I won't add the aforementioned Super R-Type to the list since you only get a finite amount of lives in that game, thus averting infinite checkpoint milking.

Ghegs wrote:
This is kind of an interesting topic, why not expand it beyond 16-bit to 8- and 32-bit systems while at it? That would probably require much more input from other members, though.

I could only offer a few Famicom shooters were we to expand the scope of this topic, having no experience with the Master System whatsoever (I also can't think of a console-exclusive 32-bit game with exploits at the moment). I'd be willing to include other systems given enough examples, though.

Xyga wrote:
Might as well make a list of games where it isn't broken.

Ah, that is an aporia, as intransigent Popperian epistemology will searingly point out: you cannot verify the nonexistence of something. Every functional scoring system is one prima facie. :mrgreen:

In all seriousness, this is evidently not a bad idea. Here is my list of 16-bit shmups that, to my current knowledge, don't suffer from exploits (excepting suspects/borderliners mentioned in the first post/games without any scoring system):
Spoiler: show
PCE - HuCard
1943 Kai
Burning Angels
Daisenpuu
Darius Alpha
Darius Plus
Detana!! TwinBee
Dragon Saber
Final Blaster
Formation Armed F
Galaga '88
Gokuraku Chuka Taisen
Gradius
Image Fight
Magical Chase
Mr. Heli no Daibouken
P-47: The Freedom Fighter
Rabio Lepus Special
Raiden
R-Type
Tatsujin
Terra Cresta II
Toy Shop Boys
Xevious (Arcade Mode)

PCE - CD
Ai Cho Aniki
Choujikuu Yousai Macross 2036
Daisenpuu Custom
Download 2
Forgotten Worlds
Gate of Thunder
Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire
Gradius II
Hellfire S
Kiaidan 00
R-Type Complete CD
Spriggan Mark 2 - Re-Terraform Project
Steam-Heart's
Summer Carnival '92 - Alzadick
Super Darius
Super Darius II
Super Raiden
Winds of Thunder
Zero Wing


Mega Drive
Arrow Flash
Daisenpuu
Divine Sealing
Earth Defense/The Earth Defend
Elemental Master
Fire Mustang
Forgotten Worlds
Gaiares
Granada
Hellfire
Koutetsu Teikoku
Kyuukyoku Tiger
Magic Girl
Raiden Densetsu
Same! Same! Same!
Slap Fight
Sol-Deace
Tatsujin
Thunder Force III
Uchuu Senkan Gomora
V-V
Whip Rush


Mega CD
Keio Yuugekitai
Silpheed
Sol-Feace
Winds of Thunder


SFC
Acrobat Mission
BioMetal
BlaZeon: The Bio-Cyborg Challenge
Darius Twin
Dimension Force
Gokujou Parodius
Gradius III
Hector '87
Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius
Kidou Soukou Dion
Kiki Kaikai: Nazo no Kuro Manto
Pop'n TwinBee
SD Kidou Senshi Gundam 2
SD Kidou Senshi Gundam: V Sakusen Shidou
Sonic Wings
Spriggan Powered
Star Force
Star Soldier
Super E.D.F.: Earth Defense Force
Super R-Type
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Last edited by Perikles on Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:33 am, edited 13 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:47 pm 


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Perikles wrote:
Ah, that is an aporia, as intransigent Popperian epistemology will searingly point out: you cannot verify the nonexistence of something. Every functional scoring system is one prima facie. :mrgreen:

:lol:

Nevertheless, a list of titles that were to date spared by the sharp sword of falsificationism, is very much appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:24 pm 



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Firepower 2000 for sure has broken scoring as you can milk the spawns of the first boss forever.

I'm pretty sure one of the mid bosses on Strike Gunner STG can also be milked forever as well, I think it was the midboss of level 3? Been forever since I played i.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:55 pm 


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Good calls! Added Mega SWIV, Super SWIV and Strike Gunner S.T.G; the latter in italics since carefully destroying those minuscule missiles without hitting the enormous (mid-)bosses that dispense them doesn't seem realistic in the long run, maybe I'll try it out one day when I'm feeling particularly masochistic.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:15 pm 



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Perikles wrote:
Good calls! Added Mega SWIV, Super SWIV and Strike Gunner S.T.G; the latter in italics since carefully destroying those minuscule missiles without hitting the enormous (mid-)bosses that dispense them doesn't seem realistic in the long run, maybe I'll try it out one day when I'm feeling particularly masochistic.


For Strike Gunner STG, I was actually referring to destroying the tanks that spawn by the midboss of level 3 (the thing that looks like a hover craft). From what I remember it will start spawning tanks in a loop forever and you can kill them. Usually you will kill the thing before it starts spawning stuff unless you have an underpowered ship. Again this is all based off old memories though I won't say it's 100% confirmed until someone proves it again.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:21 am 


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Very interesting topic, and I also like the idea of expanding it to a general list of shmups with broken infinite scoring. One very modern example I can give is Shikhondo. With The Reaper (is that her name?) You milk the third boss' spiderweb pattern infinitely by using the burst mechanic repeatedly to cancel bullets and never firing. I got to number 3 on the hardcore leaderboards exploiting this (I got bored and just quit eventually).
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:48 am 


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pegboy wrote:
Usually you will kill the thing before it starts spawning stuff unless you have an underpowered ship.

Just like so - I wasn't even aware the thing would release tanks, I always destroyed it beforehand. :o Had to try it out and indeed, you can easily exploit this situation forever, just sit on top of the midboss and sweep from left to right as tanks trundle out of it. Removed the italics as a result.

ACSeraph wrote:
Very interesting topic, and I also like the idea of expanding it to a general list of shmups with broken infinite scoring.

For what it's worth, here is what I can I think of regarding the Famicom:

Abadox (boss milking)
Burai Fighter (stage milking)
Fantasy Zone (stage milking)
Fantasy Zone II (stage milking)

Gradius II (boss milking)
Guardic Gaiden (boss milking)
Gun-Nac (boss milking)
Gun.Smoke (stage milking)
Image Fight (checkpoint milking)
Life Force (stage milking)
Over Horizon (stage milking)
Recca (boss milking)
Salamander (stage milking)
Section Z (stage milking)
Silver Surfer (boss milking)
Zanac (stage milking/warping)

Suspects
ASO: Armored Scrum Object (stage milking/warping?)
Crisis Force (boss milking?)
Gyruss (stage milking?)


Assuredly a woefully incomplete list, just based on what I've seen so far.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:03 am 


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Perikles wrote:
Recca (boss milking)


Worth pointing out that Recca also has the Caravan modes, which are perfectly playable for score/time.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:47 pm 


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Very interesting topic, Perikles! Given that the game selection in my monthly shmup club will invariably include many 8 & 16-bit console shooters, and arcade ports, this is of interest. Most of the participants lean toward the casual side, and are less interested in pure score chasing, but this will still be an invaluable resource, so we can set ground rules for certain games, so those who want to do well (myself included!), know what the limitations are, and can avoid these explicit milking strategies specifically. I'll definitely be watching this topic, to see how many of these things are confirmed.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:09 pm 


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Kiki Kaikai (PCE HuCard), stage milking: normally, a blue flame circle appears after some time of standstill to end your life if you don't move forward.

If you move forward about 1-2 screens to reset its timer, you can simply go back to your previous position afterwards. Between that just find yourself a nice spot where nothing hits you and fire away.


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:06 pm 


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Another effulgent example of sleuthing, added to the list! I also appended Crisis Force (Famicom) to the suspect category: as per the inspiration (Compile games), you can destroy power-up carriers forever during boss fights. There's unfortunately no score display during stages, so it's not quite simple to ascertain whether that actually boosts your score or not, hence its place on the suspect category instead of the main list. Poetically fitting considering you never see your final score in that game anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:55 pm 


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is Star Soldier really broken? As i know, you can repeat stage(boss timeout) only one time.


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:11 pm 


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Perikles wrote:
Good calls! Added Mega SWIV, Super SWIV and Strike Gunner S.T.G; the latter in italics since carefully destroying those minuscule missiles without hitting the enormous (mid-)bosses that dispense them doesn't seem realistic in the long run, maybe I'll try it out one day when I'm feeling particularly masochistic.


More efficiently than milking destructables without killing the boss - the final boss of Mega/Super SWIV you can, I believe, milk forever. You need to shoot a special powerup into a hole and until you do that I think it keeps spawing enemies. When I first got to this boss back in '94 I spent ages there just clearing out enemies wondering why nothing else was happening!


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:55 am 


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I don't know if you want to keep this console-only, but if you decide to add homecomputer games, the Amiga version of Katakis/Denaris has infinite milking at the final boss. Amusingly, at some point the score counter starts writing digits in parts of the HUD where they are obviously not supposed to go.

I suspect that practically all of the homecomputer games of the aera had broken scoring in one way or another, because, let's be real, those developers didn't care.


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:03 am 


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2a03 wrote:
is Star Soldier really broken? As i know, you can repeat stage(boss timeout) only one time.

You're right, of course! I'm not sure why I was under the impression you could repeat the stages indefinitely - removed the game from the list(s).

Herr Schatten wrote:
I don't know if you want to keep this console-only, but if you decide to add homecomputer games [...]

I'm not opposed to it whatsoever, but just like with the Master System, I have absolutely no knowledge of this particular branch of shmups, thus necessitating other friendly members to point out exemplars.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:37 pm 


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I'd add PCE Aero Blasters / MD Air Buster. It has no boss timeouts, and I've found safe spots on three of them for infinite milking. Two of which work in the arcade version as well.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:57 pm 


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I seen this movie where they can score unlimited in battle garegga on the tank boss.


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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:45 pm 


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If you're talking about Stage 3/Earth Crisis, that's not true - it'll time out eventually, just like every other boss. You can milk its armour for what may seem like eternity, though. :wink:

Also, Garegga being an arcade game, I think this thread would be more interesting if limited to shooters designed for home platforms, or ports to those platforms. I wonder if there are any examples of broken arcade games getting fixed console ports? The only example that comes to mind offhand is from a few generations later - Mars Matrix for Dreamcast (removes the CPS2's counterstop).
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:13 pm 


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Jeneki wrote:
I'd add PCE Aero Blasters / MD Air Buster. It has no boss timeouts, and I've found safe spots on three of them for infinite milking. Two of which work in the arcade version as well.

Thanks for the confirmation, duly added to the list (the MD port was on the list already, also under the "Aero Blasters" moniker)!

Also took a quick look at Thunderbolt II and this one is indeed also broken, as I surmised.

BIL wrote:
I wonder if there are any examples of broken arcade games getting fixed console ports?

None in the demesne of 8-/16-bit ports as far as I'm aware. Gun.Smoke, Kiki Kaikai and Side Arms are the only specimens where I (off-hand) know for a fact that the arcade originals were broken to begin with, neither port rectifies those. There is supposedly some invincibility glitch in Gradius III AC which most likely is not present in the SFC port, that's quite a stretch, though. I understand why home console developers would expurgate their ports/exclusives from time-outs, but handing out points for projectiles/escorts at the same time was not a particularly bonifate idea. I don't mind those instances with tough checkpoint recoveries myself (i.e. the three games I've put in bold letters) for there is a real risk of losing the credit if the player is inattentive and/or unprepared, most exploits are unfortunately rather simple to effectuate.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:49 pm 


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Interesting research; I know it's a hassle but being case specific at least in the case of bosses would make this a very good source of reference. However, I agree with the sentiment that the issue(s) are so widespread that it's hard not to be left with the impression that the ones still not mentioned here are only awaiting to be added to the list at some point... Indeed listing the opposite would've shortened your trouble.
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:48 pm 


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Turrican wrote:
I know it's a hassle but being case specific at least in the case of bosses would make this a very good source of reference.

Added terse descriptions for all 16-bit games - those might not be the only places in those games, but I've made sure to include the most lucrative ones that I'm aware of.

Turrican wrote:
However, I agree with the sentiment that the issue(s) are so widespread that it's hard not to be left with the impression that the ones still not mentioned here are only awaiting to be added to the list at some point...

For reasons originating from epistemology (see above) and condign wariness, I'd never rule the possibility out, yet have to confess that I'm a lot more optimistic myself. It's indubitadly probable that a few more games have rather obscure exploits, I'd wager the majority of the ones not mentioned does not, on the other hand. Games like BioMetal, Super E.D.F., Gaiares, Download 2 or Burning Angels where bosses do not grant points outside of killing them, where the screen will continuously scroll outside of said boss battles and where there are no checkpoints, cannot easily adduce counterstop potential without some weird glitch (which would have to be so rare/outré that you might as well ignore/ban it).

It should also be reiterated that for a few of those incontrovertibly broken games, it's not as bad as it may seem. Take the Strike Gunner S.T.G example which pegboy pointed out: I've actually done a couple of runs to see just how useful this lacuna is. In one run, I've milked the midboss for roughly 30 minutes before proceeding as usual. I didn't lose any life until the final high-speed section and ended with a paltry score barely in excess of 1.1m. Afterwards, I abused the game's curious foible (which grants points for hitting (!) resilient enemies) by intentionally losing a life early on so that boss fights took considerably longer, hence rewarding much more points. Didn't do much milking, had over 1.5m in that run. Granted, it's an extreme example, but the point is lucidly clear: in order to actually benefit from the exploit, you'd have to play for several hours. In other games, the milking can be fairly enjoyable, even, I appreciated PC Denjin a lot more once I experimented a little how to efficaciously reap a lot of points without hurting bosses in the process. Maybe I'm just besotted with 16-bit shmups, though. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:39 am 


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Thanks, much improved list! Maybe i'm out of touch with the community here, but basically whenever you wrote "basically everywhere" there was an issue with the particular subgenre (cylinder shmup, or push-the screen a la Atomic Robo-kid. Those are borderline cases, but what Is Zombies Ate doing in the list at all?!? :P

Edit: about Xenon 2 even if you can use retro boosters to scroll backwards, I was under the impression that the waves the game throws at you are limited in number (thus preventing to milk cash other than points).
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 Post subject: Re: 16-bit shmups with broken scoring systems
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:43 am 


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Quote:
Parodius Da! (checkpoint milking; double K.O. on the final boss)


Which checkpoint can be milked infinitely?
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