Sine Mora...why can't I enjoy it?

[Rastan78]

For the time thing to work it would be better to balance the game to where it feels like you're really mowing down enemies. The time mechanic could also be tied to something other than death. Maybe something tied to a power resource that comes in shorter bursts. The countdown could be triggered by the player. Triggering a time thingy could switch you into a Bayonetta witch time type of world with higher bonuses. Don't rack up enough and time bonuses and when time runs out you're back in normal time. Lots of ways it could be designed. The peashooter in SM just feels terrible. It makes the timer feel suffocating.

It could be cool though. It does feel great to barely grab a checkpoint in Outrun.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'd suggested previously for a time = life mechanic that a good compromise solution would be simply to make it so you die if you take a hit with 0 left on the timer. Makes it more forgiving to take hits over a long stage, as long as you don't take a final hit whenever the timer is at 0. Also removes the issue of dying simply because you were too slow at killing something (potentially due to being underpowered or low on resources to go for a speedkill).

[Dragonrough43]

I'd suggested previously for a time = life mechanic that a good compromise solution would be simply to make it so you die if you take a hit with 0 left on the timer. Makes it more forgiving to take hits over a long stage, as long as you don't take a final hit whenever the timer is at 0. Also removes the issue of dying simply because you were too slow at killing something (potentially due to being underpowered or low on resources to go for a speedkill).

Yes, that is a wonderful idea. A lot stages have a gap of 7-10 seconds between the last enemy and a checkpoint, which is the equivalent of the time lost from a hit on insane difficulty. Why would you punish players like this, especially the players that beat that portion of the stage by the skin of their teeth? Why?? It’s like “oh you beat that portion of the stage, but you didn’t beat that portion with enough health, so die.” This is particularly an issue in Stage IV A where you have to put yourself in harm’s way to kill enough enemies in order to have enough time to reach the cave and you can’t go back so if you realize you haven’t killed enough enemies and only a few enemies remain on screen, you’re dead. This is also notably somewhat of an issue in Stage I B where you can only take one or two hits in the cave and you kind of have to kill all of the worms.

There’s a lot that the developers could have done to make this game more casual and fair. For instance they could have given you 999 continues in arcade after enough hours or piano encounters (like in story mode), or allowed the extend and shield power ups to stack, or even allowed the player to be less dependent on the random drops. The possibilities are actually endless. I think the issue was that the developers have never played shmups but still wanted to inflate the game’s difficulty artificially. The developers probably wanted everyone to be able to enjoy the game but since they probably haven’t played the “inspirations” that “inspired” this game, they had to artificially inflate the difficulty by making the game unfair and unbalanced in order to appease the pro shmup players. Either that or Theodore Reiker didn’t really care about this game (but it seems like he did from the interviews so I don’t know what happened). Either way, Digital Reality went under about a year after releasing this game so they can’t make anyone suffer anymore.

The only nice thing about this game (besides the graphics) is the Roll Back Capsule. Seriously, thank goodness they didn’t remove it in development, it is the only thing that makes this atrocity bearable.

[SPM]

I've had this on my wish list for a year now. Removed it from there a couple times and added it back again. It seems that arcade mode and score attack have potential though, but that may be it, just potential...

[Rastan78]

I think there's a basic precedent in shmups and arcade style games where you have a survival layer to the game and a scoring/ advanced mechanics layer to the game. In the beginning most players will focus on survival play trying to minimize risk and keep their credit alive. Maybe you let some enemies pass by or let points drop in order to play it safe. The risk vs reward aspect added by the scoring elements of a game come in to play later in order to keep score chasers playing and add depth. Playing safe early on an not messing with multipliers, chaining, etc. should be rewarded with easier survival, not penalized with more risk of death like in Sine Mora.

One of the only other examples I can think of where a new player is penalized for playing safe is Radiant Silvergun, where if you don't chain, then you can't level up fast enough and the game feels really difficult. That's a thing that can be too off-putting for new players just trying to get a feel for the levels.

I think a perfect example of a game that balances survival and scoring mechanics well is Battle Bakraid. There is a rich and complex bomb, suicide then grab extends mulitplier system waiting for advanced players to uncover, but new players are also rewarded with a fun and balanced straight up STG experience in it's own right. For a new player, the punishing risk reward based scoring system doesn't intrude on the basic survival based aspect of the game in any way. If you play it safe, you will only be missing out on points, but survival will be much easier than if you go for all the risky high scoring strategies. And most importantly Bakraid is still a blast to play for survival. It's an ideal game for both beginners and experts.

Sine Mora is a game where it wants to push the time mechanic in your face and make the game all about it right from the beginning. I think the more advanced scoring gimmicks of a shmup should be like a hidden gem that you uncover the more you play, only if you care to. They shouldn't be something that is forced on you even just to play for survival.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I think the issue was that the developers have never played shmups but still wanted to inflate the game’s difficulty artificially. The developers probably wanted everyone to be able to enjoy the game but since they probably haven’t played the “inspirations” that “inspired” this game.

Yeah, that was kind of the vibe I got; they namedropped some shmups but didn't take any design cues from them or didn't understand the games enough to learn what made those elements great. On top of using time slowdown and shielding that was previously seen in Espgaluda and Giga Wing with scoring completely stripped from their mechanics, they also didn't have the extra graphical quality of life designs in place to help use those. Espgaluda shows a duration meter around your character, so you don't have to look at the top left to see how long your meter will last, whereas Sine Mora does not, meaning if you're looking near your ship to make tight dodges, you can miss when you're running low on your special meter.

I've said that Sine Mora really could be great with a rerelease that tweaks a lot of these elements, and I'm aware there's a Sine Mora EX version, but I remember what Sine Mora EX has addressed and what it hasn't. As far as I know it probably still insta kills you if time hits zero.

I think there's a basic precedent in shmups and arcade style games where you have a survival layer to the game and a scoring/ advanced mechanics layer to the game.

Agreed, a lot of really well designed games feel like you can play for survival or score, but the mechanics are setup so playing for survival does, to some extent, help you naturally transition into scoring. Again, Espgaluda and Giga Wing are great at this. Some games are more heavily tied to scoring well being directly related to survival, but those games have far more compelling scoring systems than Sine Mora, where you are penalized for using both your special ability and your bombs, and optimal scoring consists of using nothing but your basic shot.

The only other games with a score=level up mechanic I can think of are Batsugun and Mars Matrix. Batsugun is fairly tame and it actually gives you experience points for dying. It's setup so even newer players won't feel stuck and underpowered. Mars Matrix requires more aggressive play to score properly and therefore level up your ship power, but it's a brutally hard game and is not meant to be a beginner friendly experience. Its special ability also lets you work around being underpowered to a limited extent, although it's nowhere near as potent as Giga Wing's shield.

[Dragonrough43]

It seems that arcade mode and score attack have potential though, but that may be it, just potential...

Score Attack is awful because you only get one credit and can still be instakilled in the instakill zones and you have to start out each stage with a level 1 firepower. This is probably the mode that has the least potential in the entire game. Arcade suffers from similar flaws but gives you slightly more elbow room since you have to beat the whole game. Overall, I think Story has the most potential especially after you encounter the piano and get 999 credits, although, you are forced to use the Merenstein often (the worst ship in the game), speed up as your only capsule of choice (the worst capsule in the game), and the worst sub weapon in the game to fight the final boss, so perhaps not....

Sine Mora is a game where it wants to push the time mechanic in your face and make the game all about it right from the beginning. I think the more advanced scoring gimmicks of a shmup should be like a hidden gem that you uncover the more you play, only if you care to.

Well, as I said before, there is a hidden scoring mechanic that you eventually learn about. Except it’s not one that you would probably hope to find.

On a serious note, there is a little bit of depth with the Roll Back Capsule not lowering your rank like other sub weapons and capsules do. In fact, it can actually restore your rank and take off penalties. However, that is probably not anywhere near the level of depth that a shmup player would hope to find.

Espgaluda shows a duration meter around your character, so you don't have to look at the top left to see how long your meter will last, whereas Sine Mora does not, meaning if you're looking near your ship to make tight dodges, you can miss when you're running low on your special meter.

That would be extremely useful. I always thought that looking to the far right corner of the screen was likely a bad design choice. I will say this though, I came back recently to the game from a hiatus and I did a lot better than I thought I would, mainly because I didn’t look at the right corner or at the timer as much as I normally do. I only looked at the right corner when I was in a very “safe” position.

You can also see when the timer turns red (5 seconds remaining) with your peripheral vision without losing focus of what’s happening on the screen. Even if you can’t see that, there’s not really a whole lot you can do with this information anyway. Playing more aggressively to kill more enemies is riskier and that’s not really a risk you can afford to take at that point. The best you can do is just keep shooting and hope for the best. Honestly, when the timer turns red during a firefight, the game decides whether you live or die (especially on insane difficulty). This happens anyway because of the random drops so just hope the game is in a good mood (aside from its usual mood).

[Lethe]

The only other games with a score=level up mechanic I can think of are Batsugun and Mars Matrix.

There are also some games which outright require you to play them properly to progress: most notably Psyvariar. If you don't respect the scoring mechanics then the game will lock you to a bad route or just kick you out part of the way through. Personally I don't dislike the idea of gating progression like this, but the Silvergun/Mars Matrix approach is probably the better way of doing it, because at least then the fact that you're doing something wrong is represented in the gameplay. Still, in all these cases, there's a huge difference between scoring enough to 1CC and full-on scoreplay.

E: Actually Bakraid fits this conversation even better because it's the only Bat* game with a higher starting rank than minimum rank, so by learning to score the first boss you make the whole game easier even if you do nothing else. Bakraid's a great example of a game where the tiny, specific details are almost irrelevant to its overall design because the skeleton is strong enough to allow for emergent gameplay. Something like Sine Mora strikes me about as far in the opposite direction as it's possible to go (I haven't played it, thankfully).

[SPM]

So I just bought it for 6 bucks... And I'm enjoying it so far for the most part (not story mode, since it interrupts the flow too much, and neither some boss patterns that seem (almost?) unavoidable if you want to try and keep your multiplier. And the items drop randomness doesn't help as you may or may not get a shield on the stage).

Alex from AzorMX's "The search for the greatest shmup" perfectly explains one of the main problems I'm having with the game:

"as you tackle the harder difficulties, the inevitabilities of time start screaming in your face. The critical element that conflict with the implementation of time is that all shmups (or at least most) are auto-scrollers. You can’t control how fast you can advance, they always take a set amount of time. This means you will run into “checkmate” situations where your time is not enough to make it to the next checkpoint and the game won’t provide the means to replenish it. You are sentenced to death and you can’t escape"

In that regard, I think the sweet spot may be somewhere between challenging and hard difficulties. Probably the latter.

[XoPachi]

Funny thing.
Anytime I see this thread or just the name of the game, I think back to when a massively vehement furry was upset, like wildly, totally outraged that I didn't like this one.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Were they also upset that you didn't enjoy Eight Forces despite having an alcoholic unicorn pilot in it?

[Rastan78]

Funny thing.
Anytime I see this thread or just the name of the game, I think back to when a massively vehement furry was upset, like wildly, totally outraged that I didn't like this one.

https://youtu.be/VMHnGwomato

Maybe it was this kid lol

[SPM]

What do you guys think of the challenges? Jesus they're brutal! Has anyone over here completed them all?

After playing a few hours more I'm starting to hate the random power-ups and some tight sections with wind mechanics (there has to be something fucked up with those physics that I've not figured out yet).

Also, I think there are some inconsistencies with modes and difficulties. I don't know what it is but boss training, score attack and arcade seem to have some differences even when playing on the same difficulty (hard).

On the other hand, I'm enjoying boss training and arcade.

PS: I find the piano hilarious for casual play. Terrible for serious play.

[XoPachi]

Were they also upset that you didn't enjoy Eight Forces despite having an alcoholic unicorn pilot in it?

No, but he was none too happy that I find Super Cyborg to be WAY better than Clash Force.
I remember I linked to the old SM thread because I figured he assumed I just was offput by anthros in games. And that's actually...common. Rivals of Aether suffered that stigma for a LONG time. So I was willing to explain why SM is trash.

"Hm, sounds like you're just making excuses for being an anti-fur".
lmao

[christianbelchior]

Because it's a euroshmup. And I hate euroshmups.Except Tyrian, just wanted to add scoring to it