shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Sun May 09, 2021 8:37 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 3:45 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 1126
bcass wrote:
Is there a recommended ROM set for shmups on MAME, or is everyone using ShmupArch these days?


Absolutely no one is using ShmupArch.

Just grab the latest MAME and a set with as large a number as you can find and you'll be good to go. I actually just updated to 0.231 this week, and I'm pretty happy with the rewritten FM audio emulation.

Don't forget to enable the low latency option in mame.ini if you have a VRR monitor.
_________________
Indie hipsters: "Arcades are so dead"
Finite Continues? Ain't that some shit.
RBelmont wrote:
A little math shows that if you overclock a Pi3 to about 3.4 GHz you'll start to be competitive with PCs from 2002. And you'll also set your house on fire


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:00 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 14446
Location: COLONY
trap15 wrote:
MAME even says Gradius is 60.606060...Hz refresh, not 60. That's the cause. If it's not jerking at all on your setup, it's probably because you have MAME set to adjust game refresh rate to display refresh rate.


Oh wow, it does. :o I was going off MAMEdev notes. I wonder if Gotch quietly dialled the ACA version down to 60hz. I've been playing their ACA Thunder Cross all afternoon, and that too is ultra-smooth (typing this while glowering at my monitor as BLUE THUNDER 45 putters its way back to the start of the loop).

OTOH, ACA Super Cobra (another 60.6hz MAME entry) clearly chops a bit, consistently, when switched it to PCB speed.

Anyway, calling it quits for today. This just happened in TCII and I didn't even see the bullet. The Theme Of Biruford :cool:
_________________
Image
PUSH DON'T PUMP
[THE MIRAGE OF MIND] Metal Black ST [THE MASSACRE] Gun.Smoke ST [TRAGEDY FLAME]


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:44 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
BIL wrote:
I've been playing their ACA Thunder Cross all afternoon, and that too is ultra-smooth.

That's odd, because I did a playthrough of the ACA PC release recently, and it's slightly choppy, like Gradius. I did a capture of it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSg6EoIfN7s


Last edited by bcass on Sat May 01, 2021 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:49 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
trap15 wrote:
If it's not jerking at all on your setup, it's probably because you have MAME set to adjust game refresh rate to display refresh rate.

I was unaware of that option, it was turned off. I just tried turning it on, and it's fixed the choppy music. However, I noticed that the missile sound effects seem to sound slightly corrupted when they hit enemies, see here:

https://youtu.be/-SShBhUsFto?t=17

That's from Nemesis, but the issue is present on Gradius too.

Any idea what might be causing that?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:02 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 14446
Location: COLONY
bcass wrote:
BIL wrote:
I've been playing their ACA Thunder Cross all afternoon, and that too is ultra-smooth.

That's odd, because I did a playthrough of the ACA PC release recently, and it's slightly choppy, like Gradius. I did a capture of it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSg6EoIfN7s


It's difficult to tell via 30fps capture. FWIW, I uploaded a stage 3 scoring demo earlier today, which displays some chop (on my potato desktop, at least) - despite the game running without a hitch at 60fps. (by comparison, Thunder Cross II has a subtle, regular chop every couple seconds, noticeable on both the ship and backgrounds)

I keep hearing bizarre things about the Anniversary collection, like it being impossible to toggle extends in Thunder Cross US (per SCC). It almost sounds like they deliberately crippled it to offset it containing seven ACA titles. Which would be quite the shitbird move. :/
_________________
Image
PUSH DON'T PUMP
[THE MIRAGE OF MIND] Metal Black ST [THE MASSACRE] Gun.Smoke ST [TRAGEDY FLAME]


Last edited by BIL on Sat May 01, 2021 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:06 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
The video capture I posted is 60fps, not 30.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:09 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 14446
Location: COLONY
Either my PC's even worse than I thought, or it's not giving me the option to watch at 60fps like most 60fps captures do.

Regardless, if Gradius and Thunder Cross are noticeably choppy on this collection, and it's not a hardware issue on your end, it sounds like they perform worse than the PS4 Arcade Archives stand-alones.
_________________
Image
PUSH DON'T PUMP
[THE MIRAGE OF MIND] Metal Black ST [THE MASSACRE] Gun.Smoke ST [TRAGEDY FLAME]


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:18 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
Weird, you're right, it is 30fps. It won't let me change to 60 either. I captured this using Plays, an app that was discontinued a while back, but it usually captures stuff at 60.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 5:27 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
According to the Xbox Game Bar I have installed on my PC, the game is running at 60, so it must have been an issue with the Plays app.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 7:41 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 730
Location: Virginia, USA
The Youtube conversion algorithm seems to be pretty picky about resolutions and framerates. Most of the time, if the video being uploaded is below 720p, it will refuse to do 60fps. I have seen rare 480p60 and even 360p60 videos, though, so who knows. I'm guessing channels like Replay Burners upscale their videos 4-5x before uploading.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:20 am 


User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 36
bcass wrote:
I've noticed that the horizontal ship movement in Gradius in this collection seems slightly jerky:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSqHpGpfXLo

It's more prominent after selecting a speed-up. I'm playing the Steam release. I don't remember the arcade version having this jerky movement. Has anyone else noticed this issue in this collection? Thunder Cross also seems slightly jerky as well.

It's literally the same issue as in R-Type Dimensions, I don't think it's directly caused by refresh rate mismatch as the judder/choppiness is present even on my gsync setup which should theoretically eliminate it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:00 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 751
In the case of a port that is trying to mimic an authentic arcade game speed that's slightly off 60, g sync probably wouldn't change anything. The game is likely only able to output 60 hz, it's just doubling or skipping certain frames (or some similar technique) to get the end result as close as possible in terms of the original game speed.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:00 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 751
double post, sorry


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:42 am 


User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 36
Rastan78 wrote:
In the case of a port that is trying to mimic an authentic arcade game speed that's slightly off 60, g sync probably wouldn't change anything. The game is likely only able to output 60 hz, it's just doubling or skipping certain frames (or some similar technique) to get the end result as close as possible in terms of the original game speed.

Yep, as always it's bad emulation...
Sadly you can't extract the roms like in other two collections (Contra and Castlevania).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 11:19 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 751
That's not bad emulation, it's just making the best of porting games from an analogue technology where different refresh rates would play smoothly on CRT. When you have consoles that can't output these odd refresh rates natively and non VRR monitors that won't work well with them, it's either slight stutter or sync to 60 and have the game run faster or slower than it should. I much prefer to play with the stutter at correct speed.

That being said this type of stutter is almost unnoticeable until you get way down to Seibu SPI type speeds where it becomes very obvious, something Ike 54 - 55 hz. Looks like there might be something else happening here, but hard to say from a youtube vid.

Maybe with VRR monitors and TVs becoming common we'll see official arcade ports to PC, XBOX whatever the newest one is called? X, and PS5 in the future that have smooth motion at correct game speeds?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:44 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 36
Rastan78 wrote:
That's not bad emulation, it's just making the best of porting games from an analogue technology where different refresh rates would play smoothly on CRT.

No, that's bad emulation.
If MAME can emulate both R-Type and Gradius smoothly so should official ports, especially since you're paying for them.
Not to mention there are many other arcade/retro ports from different companies running without any choppiness.

Quote:
That being said this type of stutter is almost unnoticeable

You must be joking, it's super obvious unless you never played the originals.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 1:06 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 751
You're not specifying if MAME is set up to sync to 60 or the ports you're talking about are attempting to match original game speed or lock to 60. It's not all good or all bad. It's just a trade off deciding to prioritize smooth scrolling vs accurate speed. You can't have both on a console that can only output 60. Devs that are really thorough might give you the option to toggle it like Raiden Fighters Aces.

As far as if it's noticable, on a game that isn't that far removed from 60 and has minor stutter, I don't find it distracting and really only notice it if I stop to stare at it.

But yeah , if it's extremely obvious or inconsistent, it could be some other issue. I have only played the Hamster ports on console on the ACA versions not the Anniversry Collection and those were all fine so far.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:35 am 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
I updated to the latest version of MAME64, which has fixed the odd sound issue I was having with Gradius, so I will stick to MAME for that one. I tried Thundercross on MAME, but it still has this odd graphical issue that MAME has had for years now. It's an issue with the background on stage 3:

https://i.imgur.com/1Qf6ZSN.png

Is that fixable, or am I going to have to go back to the Anniversary Collection? How is the Hamster release compared to the Anniversary Collection version? I'd like to stick to MAME where possible for integer scaling, but it's concerning to see that old glitch with Thundercross still not being fixed after all this time.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:42 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 7835
Location: MD
Also, some TVs and monitors handle different resolutions and odd sync rates better than others. One model of a TCL 4K TV can have odd graphical glitches in 720p with game mode on (seems to come and go. I'm under the impression it may have been fixed, but I'm not completely sure).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:58 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 14446
Location: COLONY
bcass wrote:
How is the Hamster release compared to the Anniversary Collection version?


The PS4 one is absolutely perfect, imo. I believe you've cleared ACA Gradius II and Darius on PS4? Same standard. ACA Thunder Cross and Darius were both developed by Gotch Technologies, association with whom seems to have profoundly improved Hamster (ACA Gradius II is apparently theirs). Gotch are staffed by founders of Rutubo Games (developers of the beautiful 32X/SS Space Harrier/After Burner II & SS OutRun), and for quality remain on par with M2. Sometimes better - their Arcade Archives: Contra was that game's first home release, licensed or not, to correctly emulate the 3D stages, something MAME just recently fixed (though MAME's "Continue?" graphic remains bugged).

(of course, nobody approaches M2 for combined quality and extras :cool:)

ACA: Thunder Cross includes Old Japan, New Japan (said to be subtly harder... I think it may be the loop? Japanese arcade ops complained about the old ver, BITD), Europe (seems very much like Old Japan) and US (the notorious one - removes the Option spacing mechanic, and most of the special weapons, instituting a traditional Tiger Heli bomb... as SCC says, it's an interesting oddity for completists). Apparently, it has all the DIP switch settings missing from the Anniversary Collection, too. Even lets you reverse the player sides, if you feel like using the red ship without hooking up a second controller.

TC being a 60hz-adjacent board, it runs smooth as hell. I spent all Saturday eyeballing my PS4's monitor and never saw a gatdamn thing. Then I played VS. Gradius & VS. Castlevania (dat Famicom refresh :cool:) and ACA: Rygar (another good display benchmark - long, contiguous scrolling vistas without a hint of slowdown), to identically good times. I hope someday we get M2/Gotch/Hamster-quality emulation with VRR support. That's the one thing I'm left wanting at this stage.

I've never tried ACA: Thunder Cross on Switch, but it seems to get similarly good reviews there, too.

TLDR: Good stuff. Image
_________________
Image
PUSH DON'T PUMP
[THE MIRAGE OF MIND] Metal Black ST [THE MASSACRE] Gun.Smoke ST [TRAGEDY FLAME]


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 36
bcass wrote:

I don't understand how people can play pixel art games with uneven pixels...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 am 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
Arthandas wrote:
bcass wrote:

I don't understand how people can play pixel art games with uneven pixels...

I don't, I resized it because the screengrab was so small. I play using integer scaling where possible.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:36 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 2324
Location: Island of Dots
BIL wrote:
bcass wrote:
How is the Hamster release compared to the Anniversary Collection version?


The PS4 one is absolutely perfect, imo. I believe you've cleared ACA Gradius II and Darius on PS4? Same standard. ACA Thunder Cross and Darius were both developed by Gotch Technologies, association with whom seems to have profoundly improved Hamster (ACA Gradius II is apparently theirs). Gotch are staffed by founders of Rutubo Games (developers of the beautiful 32X/SS Space Harrier/After Burner II & SS OutRun), and for quality remain on par with M2. Sometimes better - their Arcade Archives: Contra was that game's first home release, licensed or not, to correctly emulate the 3D stages, something MAME just recently fixed (though MAME's "Continue?" graphic remains bugged).

(of course, nobody approaches M2 for combined quality and extras :cool:)

ACA: Thunder Cross includes Old Japan, New Japan (said to be subtly harder... I think it may be the loop? Japanese arcade ops complained about the old ver, BITD), Europe (seems very much like Old Japan) and US (the notorious one - removes the Option spacing mechanic, and most of the special weapons, instituting a traditional Tiger Heli bomb... as SCC says, it's an interesting oddity for completists). Apparently, it has all the DIP switch settings missing from the Anniversary Collection, too. Even lets you reverse the player sides, if you feel like using the red ship without hooking up a second controller.

TC being a 60hz-adjacent board, it runs smooth as hell. I spent all Saturday eyeballing my PS4's monitor and never saw a gatdamn thing. Then I played VS. Gradius & VS. Castlevania (dat Famicom refresh :cool:) and ACA: Rygar (another good display benchmark - long, contiguous scrolling vistas without a hint of slowdown), to identically good times. I hope someday we get M2/Gotch/Hamster-quality emulation with VRR support. That's the one thing I'm left wanting at this stage.

I've never tried ACA: Thunder Cross on Switch, but it seems to get similarly good reviews there, too.

TLDR: Good stuff. Image

Great, thanks for the info. I already purchased ACA Gradius II years ago, so will checkout ACA TC on PS4 and delete the awful Konami Collection on Steam.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Konami Anniversary Collection
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:39 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 4706
Location: Southern Ontario
OmegaFlareX wrote:
The Youtube conversion algorithm seems to be pretty picky about resolutions and framerates. Most of the time, if the video being uploaded is below 720p, it will refuse to do 60fps.


This is my experience too. In order to get 4:3 video at 60 FPS, your resolution has to be high, 1280 x 960 seems to do the trick. It simply refuses to accept low resolution, high framerate footage, and will reprocess and demolish the framerate of low resolution videos.
_________________
YouTube VideosTwitch1CCsSideLine game guide


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: slateman and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group