New Neo-Geo shmup -- Last Hope [also for DC]

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:25 pm

I've attached a note to my review.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:42 pm

Just out of interest, have any Japanese reviews of the game surfaced yet?

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:01 pm

Kiken wrote:Just out of interest, have any Japanese reviews of the game surfaced yet?

Here's one: http://outrun1975.cocolog-nifty.com/blo ... _19e0.html

Pretty scathing, by the way:

It says that the enemy explosions are "too strong", which makes them hard to distinguish, that the pod is too sensitive to control, that you often die of hard to see enemies and their debris as well as hard to make out backgound features. He thinks that the boss BGM is not motivating. He says that the appearance is nice, but that it's not enough to motivate the player due to the aforementioned flaws.

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:17 pm

To save you the babelfishing

http://outrun1975.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2007/02/post_19e0.html wrote: Until 1 aspect it clears, because you did, temporarily the review.

Effect of explosion of the enemy being too lively, it is vague.

Per decision of fourth (we liking to see, being) being delicate, it applies to the enemy, the づ leprosy.

There are times when explosive sound of the enemy does not become in large quantity, there is no force.

There is no motivation of boss BGM.

There are many times when it dies being the vague enemy and topography, unreasonable remains.

1 degree of hardness is high strangely from the surface.

You saw the eye which is groovy it is, but from the point above motivation the plug. . .

From the feature of BGM and the like which the eye which you saw comes out the calling & unreasonable & the air,

How doing クソゲー of the PC engine without, it became る feeling.

Reluctant Hero · Post by **Reluctant Hero** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:29 pm

szycag wrote:To save you the babelfishing

http://outrun1975.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2007/02/post_19e0.html wrote: Until 1 aspect it clears, because you did, temporarily the review.

Effect of explosion of the enemy being too lively, it is vague.

Per decision of fourth (we liking to see, being) being delicate, it applies to the enemy, the づ leprosy.

There are times when explosive sound of the enemy does not become in large quantity, there is no force.

There is no motivation of boss BGM.

There are many times when it dies being the vague enemy and topography, unreasonable remains.

1 degree of hardness is high strangely from the surface.

You saw the eye which is groovy it is, but from the point above motivation the plug. . .

From the feature of BGM and the like which the eye which you saw comes out the calling & unreasonable & the air,

How doing クソゲー of the PC engine without, it became る feeling.

We're going to need more than Babelfish for this one. The item I understood the most is when the writer says

There are many times when it dies being the vague enemy and topography, unreasonable remains.

From the other review I've read, and comments on this forum, I assume the writer is saying that there were many times when he died and did not understand what caused his death.

This makes me wonder how large the hit box for your ship is. From everything I've read, it sounds like the hitbox is very large. Perhaps the game could be better recieved if the ship had a hit similair to size of the Vic Viper's hit box is Gradius V. That is, extremely small at the center of the ship.

*Sigh* I'm still waiting on my LE copy. I was playing the PC Engine R-Type last night on my Wii to get mysekf back into the mold of Horis with memorization.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:29 pm

I just translated the main points for my post above (I started translating before the babelfish translation was posted; babelfish is a bit quicker than I am).

Ceph wrote:It says that the enemy explosions are "too strong", which makes them hard to distinguish, that the pod is too sensitive to control, that you often die of hard to see enemies and their debris as well as hard to make out backgound features. He thinks that the boss BGM is not motivating. He says that the appearance is nice, but that it's not enough to motivate the player due to the aforementioned flaws.

Sorry for quoting myself.

boagman · Post by **boagman** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:57 pm

szycag wrote:I've attached a note to my review.

Okay, I can buy into that note. I'm still a bit leery about any one of us on this forum "reviewing" something that, by definition, we aren't actually "reviewing," but your caveat (and specifically that it was posted up top as the first thing a reader sees) seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Well done.

ubersaurus · Post by **ubersaurus** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:12 pm

Generally speaking, developers are close to their products and aren't able to really see criticisms until down the line. Or so Bungie said a few weeks back in an interview about Halo

But some of the criticisms I've been reading here are just attacks on the game, rather than anything genuinely helpful.

Also, I liked Trizeal!

Finally, anytime play-asia wants to send out that LE I'll be happy.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:59 pm

You saw the eye which is groovy it is,

I agree with this part of the japanese review 100%.

I saw the eye, and it was indeed groovy.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:26 pm

I ordered mine by phone from National Console Support yesterday.
I know there's invisible shrapnel in some places because I've seen the vid. But learning certain manuvers and patterns to avoid death is pretty much what I look for in a horizontal shooter. I could be wrong, but (by the looks of the game) it seems to portray a certain "grow-on-you" quality.

We'll certainly see.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:43 pm

Well, as far as I've seen, there's only been denial regarding the valid concern of hard to see bullets by the developers. I don't know whether it's been fixed in newer versions or anything, but overdefensiveness doesn't get anybody anywhere.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:27 am

RHE needs to learn how to take valuable constructive criticism to further improve their game.
I guess having worked on this game for 7 years made him think it would be perfect.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:27 am

I came so close to 1CCing this game on "Easy". I made it all the way to the sixth stage, but got plastered by the slow moving spore shots about mid-way through.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:33 pm

I couldn't wait any longer, so I downloaded it last night (I really did order a copy though, it's probably been delivered to my house already so I might have it tomorrow).

Gave it my very first shot just now (arcade mode), and here are the stats!

You killed 27 enemies
Kll ratio 52%

You shot 105 bullets
hit ratio 26%

They shot 55 bullets
You dodged 0 bullets
dodge ratio 0%

best surviving time 00:00:12
play time 00:00:31

Yeah. Every death (about 10 seconds) was a WTF just hit me death.

edit: Big improvement!! After about 20 minutes of play, I have managed to increase my best surviving time to 00:01:10!!!
I probably won't open my game when I receive it... Just keep playing this one from time to time for shits and giggles.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:18 pm

shinsage wrote:RHE needs to learn how to take valuable constructive criticism to further improve their game.
I guess having worked on this game for 7 years made him think it would be perfect.

If you keep working so closely on a project for such a long time, you badly need someone from "outside" to comment on it. I mean, they could have just given out beta test version via download for our community to test it. Now all they can do is to keep the critique in mind for the next game, released in 2014.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:26 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:
shinsage wrote:RHE needs to learn how to take valuable constructive criticism to further improve their game.
I guess having worked on this game for 7 years made him think it would be perfect.
If you keep working so closely on a project for such a long time, you badly need someone from "outside" to comment on it. I mean, they could have just given out beta test version via download for our community to test it. Now all they can do is to keep the critique in mind for the next game, released in 2014.

I asked him the same thing about beta testing it...in his defense, his answer made sense.

It wasn't logistically possible.

For example, for me to test it I would have to have flown to Germany, or he to Detroit, Mi..for it to be tested. No way he/they were gonna send builds of it (the game) out to strangers by internet or otherwise...or it would've been circulated all over the place...like has apparently happened already.

I know very little about how games are programmed and tested without giving away secrets...so I accept his (RHE's) explanation.

NAVVARR · Post by **NAVVARR** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:35 pm

I've preordered the limited edition and checked out play asia- does anyone know when the limited edition is gonna ship?

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:38 pm

NAVVARR wrote:I've preordered the limited edition and checked out play asia- does anyone know when the limited edition is gonna ship?

To put it succinctly, no.

NAVVARR · Post by **NAVVARR** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:42 pm

The Coop wrote:
NAVVARR wrote:I've preordered the limited edition and checked out play asia- does anyone know when the limited edition is gonna ship?
To put it succinctly, no.

Ok- cheers- that sucks- really looking forward to playing it despite the negative comments and reviews

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:59 pm

NAVVARR wrote:
The Coop wrote:
NAVVARR wrote:I've preordered the limited edition and checked out play asia- does anyone know when the limited edition is gonna ship?
To put it succinctly, no.
Ok- cheers- that sucks- really looking forward to playing it despite the negative comments and reviews

From what I remember, they're having a production problem, so the release got pushed to an unknown date.

Just keep in mind that not everyone shares the same sense of what's fun and what isn't (read through the 2006 shmup tournament threads for proof of that... oh the bickering

). It's true that there are more voices of disappointment here with Last Hope in terms of a ratio, but some of us are enjoying the game just fine. So try not to let what's been said here (pro and con) taint your view of the game before you get to play it. Let personal experience decide where your opinion will fall, not this thread

Varuga · Post by **Varuga** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:37 am

The game does suffer from lack of external playtesting, however there are many issues that the guys could have had regarding this. You cant just send out builds of your game to anyone, as you dont want the game you have spent all of your hard effort on being spread all over the internet.

Sure you can, just replace the graphics with ascii or something placeholderish and let the players concentrate on the gameplay.

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:31 am

I should have added to my review, I'm not a big fan of "slow" shooters... where the playfield scrolls rather slowly and your ship seems sometimes outpaced to enemy fire even if that isn't always the case. This is one of the slowest shooters I've played in a while and surely affected the amount of fun I had with it personally. I did mention the soundtrack being rather slow. Even the boss stage themes sound like the music that would play when the score is counting up (stage clear) or something like that, like the Osaka guy's blog said, is it that motivating of a theme for boss play? The main themes are pretty low tempo and for those boss themes it only jumps up to mid-tempo. This messed with my head but your reaction could be totally different.

Tactical shooting game is the term they chose to apply to this game which I find funny. I'd almost call this a Survival shooting game, although that would confuse people with Resident Evil or something. Tactics makes me think of something like Radiant Silvergun. Tactical in this case however seems to be, no twitch action, your ship is pretty slow so you better memorize your surroundings 100%. To me this is less tactical and more just trial and error. If that's the kind of shooter you want to play that's what you'll get, but it's very very different from any other shooter coming out on Dreamcast at the moment. Neo Geo and Dreamcast really are two totally different followings and "markets". But maybe this is what (some) Dreamcast owners have been waiting for... there's no shooter really like it on the system.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:10 am

RHE wrote:
Controls should be reconfigurable.

This is a undying wish by most players but developers know why they don't give them that freedom.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.

RHE wrote:
Not enough contrast between background and foreground - made worse by some non-sprite foreground elements.

Japanese developers tend to do that but this is actually a matter of taste and only slightly gameplay relevant. People who can't distinguish beetwen backgrounds and enemies should get rid off their set up.

Wait, I take back my previous comment...

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:54 am

I cancelled my preorder for the LE..... I'd rather spend 60.00 on something else. I bought the reg version used for around 30.00 shipped.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:56 am

Strider77 wrote:I cancelled my preorder for the LE..... I'd rather spend 60.00 on something else.

Smart man.

qatmix · Post by **qatmix** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Varuga wrote:

The game does suffer from lack of external playtesting, however there are many issues that the guys could have had regarding this. You cant just send out builds of your game to anyone, as you dont want the game you have spent all of your hard effort on being spread all over the internet.
Sure you can, just replace the graphics with ascii or something placeholderish and let the players concentrate on the gameplay.

I understand where you are coming from but changing the gfx isnt relly going to give you a good impression of the game.

Im in a similar situation. I have a game which is progressign well, (its nearly finished).

However Even though I've been a shump player since most of you guys were in nappies Im not in anyway awesome at them (although I was at terra cresta in the arcade). I have friends who are testing the game and one is a hardcore shump fan (and very good at shumps) however as we all know its good to have more opinions. I am keen to let one or two guys on here playtest it. However The fact is how can they vouch that they are not goign to spread the hardwork?

The code is watermarked so it easily traceable, but thats no good if its leaked. Also posts like those in the trigger heart thread with download links make me a bit cautious

Let me just state I am a very trusting bloke, However I have been stung on internet forums by beign trusting before.

hmmmm

Varuga · Post by **Varuga** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:21 pm

Do you want to give a good impression or beta test issues? Personally, I would rather have a game that is perfect before it looks pretty.
At any rate, I understand your point, I just wanted to clarify my point a bit more, but realize this is the wrong thread/board to do it..so I guess I will move this discussion over to the Development board later today.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:33 pm

TWE wrote:
Strider77 wrote:I cancelled my preorder for the LE..... I'd rather spend 60.00 on something else.
Smart man.

be praying...
be praying...
be praying...

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:41 pm

You know, I'd think to myself as the ideal target for such a product - shmup loving fan, hori supporter, with more than a knack for european taste in game music and such.

Yet I didn't get the excitement vibe over LH, probably because I see the choice of Neo Geo hardware as über elitism these times. I also don't think an heavily Pulstar-influenced shmup does any good to the same platform Pulstar is on - kinda like T-Racer doesn't add much to the amiga scene.

(for these reasons I was glad when I heard the game was heading to DC too, of course)

Anyway, I won't comment on the game of course as I just saw some videos. I respect too much the average intelligence in this forum to think that opinions are biased because of the limited release and stuff. But some parts of this thread definitely feel like it. There's a lot of defensive stances: homebrew, Germany-based team, and so on.

The fact that the game will become a rarity doesn't make it any better or worse - it's just a friendly reminder to all.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:53 pm

Strider77 wrote:I cancelled my preorder for the LE..... I'd rather spend 60.00 on something else. I bought the reg version used for around 30.00 shipped.

I hope more people will do this, so I can snatch a LE of it after all.

@ qatmix: glad to hear the secret project is finally near completing... it´s this DC project, right!?
Is it going the "Last Hope" way, being sold through Play-Asia or something?