New Neo-Geo shmup -- Last Hope [also for DC]

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:28 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:If the game appears roughly the same on all televisions...

The screen size is important too. Mostly Japanese gamers have rather small TVs so they had more issues with that than any others. S-Video or different video standards will not give the same result as RGB, so colors may bleed out.

szycag wrote:like you agreed

It's rough around the edged means it could be more player friendly which is not an issue at all. R-Type isn't much player friendly too since it has instant death and only a few check points per stage. Many players hate that while others like it or just don't complain about it.

bloodflowers wrote:Tell that to the devs who produced most of the recent PS2 ports.

Do you mean that devs who produces blurried ports of arcade games instead of using proper 240p?

There's no setup issue, this is a visibility issue pure and simple, and it has an incredible effect on the gameplay.

Did you test it on every set up?

I even hear you elected not to fix a typo in the manual for the LE release, because you just didn't want to.

Who told you?

your responses indicate that you have absolutely no ability to take on board valid complaints and/or suggestions.

Play the Dreamcast mode, it's a result of responding to suggestions.

...it has an incredible effect on the gameplay. You're blind to it however...

None backgrounds would enhance that effect even more but it would lower the games attraction. It's you who's blinded by the explosion.

Ikaruga should not use the politary system then, since it's hardly playable. But it is if ou get used to it. Ikaruga even stays playable without using that system but that's not the Ikaruga concept which defines Ikaruga. Psyvariar's buzzing gameplay is much more sensitive, unusual and difficult to handle than Last Hope's rotable pod system. Psyvariar was nearly unplayable on my set up, with its spongy graphics, some PS2 ports feature. With another set up and bigger sized screen it could be better.

As I said erlier, nearly every enemy in Last Hope shoots only a few bullets heading to the players ship direction. So it's complety clear where the bullet will emerge out of the explosions. If the enemy is in front of you, the bullet will heading forward to you. An enemy below your ship will shot the bullet from that point straight to the players ship current position. And there's a pod for absorbing them.

This is at the core of the problem.

Understand a games concept first, then complaining about it.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:53 am

RHE wrote:
Do you mean that devs who produces blurried ports of arcade games instead of using proper 240p?

My ESPgaluda and DOJ ports provide both mappable controls and non-blurried video modes...

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. There's no good reason to deny control customization from players, especially when all the customization they need is button remapping. Unless you're trying to say your artistic vision for the game somehow involved specific button mappings on a dreamcast controller (which most people don't even use)

tekneekz · Post by **tekneekz** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:03 am

still dont like the bullets lol, a new setup wont be much different either . the color of debris and bullets are the same. hope u guys use a diff color bullet next time in your future games.

Post by **system11** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:25 am

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the universe - another discussion was taking place...

<Zakk> lol at doing all your own testing internally. that's so fucking crazy
<szycag> the review http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=12764
<Zakk> "THIS GAME I DESIGNED RULES"
<bVork> I think they got some neogeo people to sorta test it too :/
<Kuik> What could possibly go wrong? :3
<Kuik> *cough*MvC2*cough*
<bVork> but of course they decided to completely ignore the actual audience for the game
<Zakk> neo-geo people play games?
<bVork> and surprise! we hate it!
<bloodf> Such a shame, I really gave it a chance, but it plays like crap, and mostly due to poor design
<bloodf> technically very good
<_Bnu> No way man, you just don't understand the concept of the game.
<bloodf> shit, im sorry
<bloodf> im so wrong

<Zakk> a strategy guide that was all about how to psychically divine where bullets are would be good
<_Bnu> The players obviously don't know what they want.
<_Bnu> It's a good thing they have some guy who made a game hardly anyone likes to tell them what they really want.

This continued for some time.

<TwystNeko> are there any youtube videos of this pile of crap?
<EdOscuro> of course
<EdOscuro> http://youtube.com/watch?v=M8xiiFdJeag
<EdOscuro> haha what is with that goofy yellow shrapnel from the enemies
<bloodf> Fuck knows - you can't see a thing
<bloodf> Even on a 36" TV with RGB you cant see a fucking thing
<TwystNeko> wait. I asked for last hope, not a slower, boring R-Type
<EdOscuro> yeah
<szycag> ugh
<EdOscuro> heh, it looks better than I had thought, although the comparison with Pulstar is maybe not that flattering
<EdOscuro> it's got a bit of DOOM III syndrome going on

<EdOscuro> and the shrapnel is ridiculous.
<bloodf> It's actually worse when you have a sharper picture - the background and foreground is just a mass of hard edges
<EdOscuro> or are those shots?
<TwystNeko> yea
<szycag> he says my review looks like a first impression
<EdOscuro> I CAN'T FUCKING TELL
<EdOscuro> it seems the shrapnel flies off the screen
<szycag> my first impression was that it was some ported up multimedia fusion game
<EdOscuro> oh god
<bloodf> lol
<EdOscuro> the shots are less visible than the shrapnel
<bloodf> yes!
<TwystNeko> oh boy. It has the rotational pod of Dino Isle
<bloodf> Now watch shots go behind tube scenery and explosions
<EdOscuro> I suddenly noticed that the player absorbed this flashing thing and I was like
<EdOscuro> AHA
<EdOscuro> hahaaha
<bloodf> And note the power ups look a bit like some of the bullets
<EdOscuro> yeah I was wondering at the beginning
<EdOscuro> why he was collecting bullets without a pod

<TwystNeko> Wow, nice design ripoff
<TwystNeko> first boss looks like the R-Type boss
<EdOscuro> the game looks a lot like Pulstar's first level, except...DOOM III style as mentioned before
<EdOscuro> it's a shame too, the background/intro CGI graphics look pretty slick
<EdOscuro> although
<EdOscuro> WTF is UP with those throbbing anuses in the background :C
* EdOscuro le cry
<EdOscuro> ...that was a bit too graphic, wasn't it
<TwystNeko> fuck, I don't even play a lot of shmups, and I think my time would be better suited to playing pulstar. At least that has variety in the weapons
<Zakk> everyone at neo-geo.com is going to hate our forum even more

<TwystNeko> oh, he got a red power up. What's that do? Red shots! Green power up? GREEN SHOTS. How groundbreaking.
<EdOscuro> wow, everything's a Pulstar rip-off
<TwystNeko> shittier
<EdOscuro> all stuff that can be found in the first level of Pulstart
<EdOscuro> ehhh that too
<EdOscuro> green pool of slime = water in Pulstar
<k56g> last hope more like lost hope amirite
<k56g>

<EdOscuro> k56g: I already made that joke
* k56g is now known as g56k
<g56k>

<szycag> i've been playing the game on very easy
<TwystNeko> it's like Pulstar filtered through a pile of bullshit. Except I can see that being better than this.
<szycag> lives turned up to max
<szycag> can't clear that fucking level 2 boss
<szycag> fucking still
<szycag> please someone tell me i'm not the worst video game player in the world and this game is just all kinds of broken
<g56k> hehe
<EdOscuro> szycag: you're not the worst video game player in the world, playing this game is like breaking a test tube in your urethra

Apologies for the stronger than usual language. Normal programming resumes now.

ubersaurus · Post by **ubersaurus** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:45 am

Seems awfully rude to post that, isn't it?

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:34 am

WTF UNPLAYABLE

The invisibility of these bullets is mind boggling. It's worse than driving from Beijing to Shanghai blindfolded. Compared to this, Battle Garegga's bullets stand out like that huge gaping hole that I just put in my TV screen.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:53 am

I might have my copy this weekend. Hahaha, just watch me 1-life to stage 3 on my first try.........or not...

Despite the all the negative impressions, I am still looking forward to try it for myself. Whether or not I will be disappointed remains to be seen..

yojo! · Post by **yojo!** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:11 am

szycag wrote:I should say that I've been playing this game for about eight hours total so far. This is not a "first impression" review. I just can't progress any further than that, and I have other games to play that I find more fun.

This is a tactical game just like R-Type is. How far did you go in R-Type after only 8 hours of gameplay ?. For the second end level boss I usually stay in the top right corner of the screen while the snake moves around and switch back to the center to shoot at the boss when everything is clear.This reminds me of the last level of Rtype which look unbeatable at first but gets easier as your learn the patterns even when you start from scratch.

I don't think this game deserves the trash and bad publicity people are giving him. I didn't like the buttons setting either at first but quite frankly I got used to it after 1/2 hour; I also have no problem distinguishing bullets from debris on my 10 years old sony TV w/ composite video input.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:20 am

Stage 2's boss isn't as tough as it first seems. The area to hit it is pretty small, but it can be killed in about twenty seconds or so. Stage 3's boss isn't too bad either (it was easier than Stage 3 itself

). I'm on stage 4 now, and it's pretty cool.

And to the folks who made it... was that a Shadow of the Beast reference I saw with the gargoyle-ish monster sitting on a tower of rock once you're close to the boss?

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:24 am

Writing a game is hard work when you're a small team and doing it as a hobby. Please learn to code in something besides BlitzBASIC before launching into an unrelenting attack on independent developers.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:27 am

louisg wrote:unrelenting attack on independent developers.

I think the attacks on the people providing criticism iare what should be considered unrelenting, lol.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:40 am

Psyvariar's buzzing gameplay is much more sensitive, unusual and difficult to handle than Last Hope's rotable pod system. Psyvariar was nearly unplayable on my set up, with its spongy graphics, some PS2 ports feature.

Silence......

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:03 am

I don't know what to say besides that I find R-Type a far more fun and forgiving game. When I mess up, I know exactly why, and the look on my face is "shucks" instead of "not again." It may be just as challenging of a game, but at least the pattern recognition is far more approachable.

I don't think this game deserves the trash and bad publicity people are giving him.

The asking price for this game is as much as for games done by huge studios for current generation consoles. I had far, FAR more fun with Nanostray, and it was done by a very small team too. I don't see anything wrong in critiquing them by those standards. It was a pretty amateur review for the game that I did, yes, but it's pretty obvious IGN doesn't play games to completion before they review them either. I was repeating a lot of things that people had already said about the game. For some reason that Beat Takeshi game for Famicom comes to mind...

dczx · Post by **dczx** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:04 am

I completely agree. This game is designed for a target audience: those who like challenging arcade style shmups in the R-Type genre. Even among shmup fans, there are those who like and hate R-Type or the play style of Gradius, etc. The Neo Geo IRC log reflects a general audience who probably play Metal Slug or fighting games. It's not that this is bad, it's just that this game type is not going to be appealing to fans of those genres.

Of the people who dislike this game, I wonder how many like Viewpoint? How many like to try to 1CC an R-Type? My suspicion is that there are many who play this game that don't even understand the type of game it is and get extremely frustrated. Now, there are games that are so difficult, I've found them unplayable. This brings to mind many old hyper NES shmups that I could hardly beat the first level on. I don't find Last Hope to be one of those games.

I have to say that I can tell the shrapnel from the bullets. It's not that bad. I'm even using the composite connection on my TV and not the S-Video so it's not as clear.

Last Hope is a great game and an amazing effort IMHO. Sorry for the long post.

This is a tactical game just like R-Type is. How far did you go in R-Type after only 8 hours of gameplay ?. For the second end level boss I usually stay in the top right corner of the screen while the snake moves around and switch back to the center to shoot at the boss when everything is clear.This reminds me of the last level of Rtype which look unbeatable at first but gets easier as your learn the patterns even when you start from scratch.

I don't think this game deserves the trash and bad publicity people are giving him. I didn't like the buttons setting either at first but quite frankly I got used to it after 1/2 hour; I also have no problem distinguishing bullets from debris on my 10 years old sony TV w/ composite video input.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:25 am

Guess BIG gets the "I TOLD YOU SO" Award of 2007, huh?

yojo! · Post by **yojo!** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:37 am

Specineff wrote:Guess BIG gets the "I TOLD YOU SO" Award of 2007, huh?

He only played the NeoGeo version; not the DC mode...

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:49 am

Specineff wrote:Guess BIG gets the "I TOLD YOU SO" Award of 2007, huh?

Not as far as I'm concerned.

yojo! · Post by **yojo!** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:59 am

szycag wrote:I don't know what to say besides that I find R-Type a far more fun and forgiving game. When I mess up, I know exactly why, and the look on my face is "shucks" instead of "not again." It may be just as challenging of a game, but at least the pattern recognition is far more approachable.

I don't think this game deserves the trash and bad publicity people are giving him.
The asking price for this game is as much as for games done by huge studios for current generation consoles. I had far, FAR more fun with Nanostray, and it was done by a very small team too. I don't see anything wrong in critiquing them by those standards. It was a pretty amateur review for the game that I did, yes, but it's pretty obvious IGN doesn't play games to completion before they review them either. I was repeating a lot of things that people had already said about the game. For some reason that Beat Takeshi game for Famicom comes to mind...

I guess it all depends of what your definition of fun is. I found nanostray pretty boring and uninspired in term of challenges. I like my shmup as tough as nails so Last Hope clearly makes my day in that category. The graphic and music are brilliant which does not hurt either .(The end of level 3 leading to the boss is prime example). This game is worth every pennies I've paid for.

boagman · Post by **boagman** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:07 am

I have to address some of this, since it *directly* describes me in many cases. Forgive, please, my lack of ability to break up the quotes in the proper manner...I'm pretty computer-stupid.

"This game is designed for a target audience: those who like challenging arcade style shmups in the R-Type genre. Even among shmup fans, there are those who like and hate R-Type or the play style of Gradius, etc. The Neo Geo IRC log reflects a general audience who probably play Metal Slug or fighting games. It's not that this is bad, it's just that this game type is not going to be appealing to fans of those genres."

O.K. I'm a Neo-Geo AES owner, and have been for years. I love Metal Slug, and many of the shooters on the Neo. I fully agree that Last Hope is a game designated for the lovers of strategic horizontal shooters in the vein of R-Type, Pulstar, Last Resort, and others. I state this *for the record*: I own *no* fighting games for my Neo-Geo, and have never purposely bought one because I wanted it. Period.

"Of the people who dislike this game, I wonder how many like Viewpoint? How many like to try to 1CC an R-Type? My suspicion is that there are many who play this game that don't even understand the type of game it is and get extremely frustrated. Now, there are games that are so difficult, I've found them unplayable. This brings to mind many old hyper NES shmups that I could hardly beat the first level on. I don't find Last Hope to be one of those games."

Viewpoint has been, and continues to be, my favorite video game of all time. Ever. I'll repeat: Viewpoint is my favorite game of all time, to this point. It's 15 years old, and it's still got an iron-fisted grip on my heart. In fact, Viewpoint is the biggest singular reason I bought a Neo-Geo. Sure, I enjoy (and wanted) other games for the system, but Viewpoint was the REASON I bought it. I will *never* sell it, unless it dies on me, and I'll certainly never sell the game itself. I have *forgotten* more about Viewpoint, as a game, than most people will ever know. What value do the stars max out at? How do you change the moving X blocks in Stage 6 into moving idols instead? How do you go through the game without using bombs on the bosses? These are questions that I can still answer...but my skills on the game have greatly diminished from the days when I could 1LIFE the game. No, not just 1CC the game...1LIFE it.

I have 1CCed R-Type (SMS) many, many times. This includes either path: going through the normal way, or accessing the secret hidden Super Stage in Stage 4. I *love* this game. I'm no stranger to defeating the strategic hard stuff. I've 1CCed Last Resort, NAM-1975 (1Lifed that one, too), Viewpoint, R-Type, Metal Slug, etc. I love the satisfaction of doing so on shmups...but don't have the time to practice that I used to. I'd say that gives me at least some pedigree to speak to the issues at hand.

"I have to say that I can tell the shrapnel from the bullets. It's not that bad. I'm even using the composite connection on my TV and not the S-Video so it's not as clear."

I found the shrapnel to be a bit disorientating, but even more than that, I found the background/foreground distinction to be darned near *impossible* to figure out/navigate through. What's relevant? What's going to destroy my ship? Is that article present in front of my ship, or in the vast regions of space beyond it? This is something that I *definitely* found to be problematic with the game. Shrapnel is annoying, yes, but as a player, I N-E-E-D to know what's going on *around my ship*. Without being able to distinguish the background from the foreground, I found the game to be an exercise that lacked the same sense of fair play that I find in games like Viewpoint and R-Type.

The other big criticism I have with the game is the nature of the pod attachment itself. The pod isn't consistent with regard to whether it will kill/damage the killable enemies in the game, or not. The peon enemies that are vulnerable to ordinary fire from my ship should be just as easily vulnerable to contact from my ship's pod. In other words, if I can destroy something by shooting it from a distance, it should *also* be destroyed or take damage (depending on the veracity/strength of the enemy) from my pod attachment. Always. I don't have any real problem with the (what I consider to be) overproliferation of indestructable enemies in the game (they did seem to draw from this well a bit too often in the brief time I played the first two stages of the game), but *all* destroyable enemies should be damaged or destroyed (again, depending entirely on how "strong" they are to begin with) when they come into contact with my pod attachment. Period.

"Last Hope is a great game and an amazing effort IMHO. Sorry for the long post."

Despite my complaints about it, I thought it was rather impressive. It's far from perfect (::cough::Viewpoint::cough::), but neither is it a total loss, either. I really like the graphics, the music, and the "feel" of the thing, but the execution of some things is most definitely flawed, and I can certainly relate to those who would cry foul at the graphical "inaccuracies" that make themselves known all-too-well, and the general feel that the game "decided" to kill you, rather than your own lousy play contributed to your death. Just because the game has some forgiveness built in via the 3-hit system does not excuse the lack of ability by the game to allow the player to differentiate between what will harm their ship and what won't.

To those who are complaining about the price of this game: honestly, get the heck *over* yourselves. It's 40 stinking US dollars for an import...60 if you want the LE edition with CD soundtrack included. While I don't actually own the game yet (I'm still trying to see if I can get in on the LE which has been presold out at Play-Asia for a while), I'd definitely pick it up for this price. I see no one holding a gun to your head to buy it, and while it's not for everyone, certainly the person who "reviewed" the game having only played less than two stages should be ashamed of themselves. Call it what you'd like, but *don't* call it a "review," since that's not accurate. I'm the first to defend your right to call it "Crap-And-A-Half!" if you want to, but posting a "review" without actually having played the game out to its (or one of its) logical conclusion(s) is not only extremely short-sighted, but it's also dishonest. And using "IGN does it!" as a reason is just complete BS. We're on a real shmup board here...IGN tactic BS doesn't cut it here.

Anyway, the game is certainly flawed in a few respects, and I can fully understand why at least one of those flaws would be something that certain reasonable people can't just let go...they're relatively obvious flaws. That being said, I rather like the game, such as it is, and think that it's quite reasonably priced considering the current market for shmups, and if I'm able to pick up a brand-new LE of the game, I won't mind throwing some cash the developers' way to keep stuff like this coming our way, as I know that flaws can be corrected. I don't believe that Trizeal *ever* experienced this level of backlash.

Ignore something, and it'll go away. That, my friends, is an option that I do not find selectable by me.

yojo! · Post by **yojo!** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:00 am

The Coop wrote:Stage 2's boss isn't as tough as it first seems. The area to hit it is pretty small, but it can be killed in about twenty seconds or so. Stage 3's boss isn't too bad either (it was easier than Stage 3 itself ). I'm on stage 4 now, and it's pretty cool.

And to the folks who made it... was that a Shadow of the Beast reference I saw with the gargoyle-ish monster sitting on a tower of rock once you're close to the boss?

Yeah, level 3 end boss is much more predictable than level 2's one. It feels really good to finally see some parallax scrolling in a shmup again after all these years... the 4 layer ones in level 4 are oustanding.

Post by **system11** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:03 am

dczx wrote:The Neo Geo IRC log reflects a general audience who probably play Metal Slug or fighting games. It's not that this is bad, it's just that this game type is not going to be appealing to fans of those genres.

That IRC paste was from the shmups channel, and the people quoted (who said more than 2 lines) are aware that it has been reproduced here. Several are people with significant shmup PCB collections - these are /not/ KOF minions.

The response wouldn't be even slightly as bad if the developer was able to say "thanks for the feedback" whether they agreed or not, instead of "you are wrong, your opinion is wrong, and your TV is broken".

boagman wrote:I don't believe that Trizeal *ever* experienced this level of backlash.

Key differences: Trizeal didn't have visibility issues, and the developer did not tell everyone that their opinion and equipment were substandard. You reap what you sow.

I still don't regret the purchase, as I believe in supporting new developers. I can't support people who refuse to take constructive criticism, which is what it was to begin with.

boagman · Post by **boagman** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:38 am

bloodflowers wrote:
boagman wrote:I don't believe that Trizeal *ever* experienced this level of backlash.
Key differences: Trizeal didn't have visibility issues, and the developer did not tell everyone that their opinion and equipment were substandard. You reap what you sow.

I still don't regret the purchase, as I believe in supporting new developers. I can't support people who refuse to take constructive criticism, which is what it was to begin with.

About Trizeal: okay, so it may not have had this same specific issue (visibility of lethal bullets/objects...is that a fair way of stating it? We're certainly in agreement that the problem exists in Last Hope), but you must admit that there were *definitely* quality issues with Trizeal. While one might pick on a certain issue more than another, substandard quality is substandard quality, no matter which subcategory of substandard quality it happens to fall under. It's the degrees of said substandard quality that really make the difference to me.

As well, Trizeal's designer also did no less than beg for people to purchase the game, *not* on the basis of the game being necessarily good, but "for the love of shooting games" in general. It was, still is, and will forever be, one of the worst low-ball tactics I've ever seen. The makers of Last Hope may not be taking well-meant and well-founded criticism very well, but at least they're not sinking as low as the Trizeal guy. Calling the Last Hope people arrogant and rude isn't unfair (and I agree, you reap what you sew), but to me, what the Trizeal guy did is far lower.

My question(s) to you then, are:

1. Do you have a problem with the Trizeal guy's tactics, and if so, then
2. Will you continue to support his newest offerings with your dollars?

I can appreciate what you're saying, but man...Trizeal couldn't *possibly* be more defendable than Last Hope is, at least in terms of overall quality. And for the creator to basically commit emotional blackmail to sell his wares was *so* uncalled for. Let's not forget that Trizeal was more expensive than Last Hope was, too. These things matter to some people, even right here in this thread.

Post by **system11** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:48 am

boagman wrote: My question(s) to you then, are:

1. Do you have a problem with the Trizeal guy's tactics, and if so, then
2. Will you continue to support his newest offerings with your dollars?

I can appreciate what you're saying, but man...Trizeal couldn't *possibly* be more defendable than Last Hope is, at least in terms of overall quality. And for the creator to basically commit emotional blackmail to sell his wares was *so* uncalled for. Let's not forget that Trizeal was more expensive than Last Hope was, too. These things matter to some people, even right here in this thread.

1) Not especially. Triangle Service appealed to the community, NG:DEV already had a community who were almost certain to buy anything they made. Both used the community as a milking ground for sales, just in different ways. Being part of that near-guaranteed sales demographic, I would have bought them both anyway.

2) Yes. I found Trizeal to be more playable despite the large number of flaws present. It was a definite improvement over XII-Stag. Again, I'd point out that he didn't register on the forum and tell people they were wrong. Maybe I'd change my mind if I saw an interview with the guy where he denies the flaws. If it had not been for this bullish attitude, I would have said I'd buy any future shooters NG:DEV make. Now I'll wait before I buy.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:49 am

Trizeal was quite craptacular looking....

Tigershark · Post by **Tigershark** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:50 am

Some of these comments seem a tad over the top people. No game is perfect which is why not many get 10/10 in reviews. You don't like it? Fine. get over it and move on.

I paid £40 for mine in the UK (inc posting) and I've got no problems with that even though it's no way my favourite shooter. I play the DC mode through a VGA box on my computer monitor and it looks great. I can definitely see the difference between bullets and shrapnel.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:05 am

From the vid, I have no problems with bullet vs shrapnel. Bullets vs background on the other hand... meh.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:27 am

Tigershark wrote: I paid £40 for mine in the UK (inc posting) and I've got no problems with that even though it's no way my favourite shooter. I play the DC mode through a VGA box on my computer monitor and it looks great. I can definitely see the difference between bullets and shrapnel.

who charged you 40 quid for that....you got ripped son!
should be £20-£25
i personally never had any interest in this.. so many people will just buy ANY shooter released for the d.c ...sure i love d.c too but not enough too buy every game..chaos field,trizeal and last hope all look weak to me...
i bought under defeat and though that was pretty pish so god knows what these are like

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:02 pm

Firstly: If you've purchased the game, or plan on purchasing it, then in my opinion you are fully entitled to voicing your concerns and distress loud and clear. Likewise, the opposite also holds true.

Now then. This seems like a pretty sticky situation. I don't have Last Hope yet (the LE is still pending, but shouldn't be too far off), and even when I do play it, chances are good that I'm not of the appropriate skill level to make heads or tails of it.

However, it seems to me that there are both technical and personal issues with this game. What I'm gathering is that the developers had a particular vision with the game, and for them to deviate too far from that vision woule likely end up with their completing a different sort of game than they had originally wished for--even if it came as pleasing to a particular group of STG fans. I can understand why this, for their pilot title, was probably not an option.

Still, I do agree that a simple, "Thank you for your input and support, we will remember it in the future" would go a long way, even if the unspoken truth was that they had been working on this game for six years, pouring their heart and soul into it, and that it's exactly the way that want it. There are those that seem to be having a good time with the title, and that's probably enough.

I would strongly recommend that both developers and players be open to gentle discussion, as this sort of open communication is a pretty good thing. If civility and open-mindedness can be maintained on both sides, then the next NG:DEV.TEAM game could be both close to their vision, and also agreeable with a wide majority of STG fans.

boagman wrote:As well, Trizeal's designer also did no less than beg for people to purchase the game, *not* on the basis of the game being necessarily good, but "for the love of shooting games" in general. It was, still is, and will forever be, one of the worst low-ball tactics I've ever seen.

I finally understand. When I read the message, I saw it as asking anyone that believes in the developer's values to support these values by purchasing the game. They explained that they didn't like the idea of posting the message, or explaining why, but they hung their pride up on the rack and told of the events that led them to their particular situation, and why.

But I've just now realized what those sharing your opinion of the message are thinking... that people like me were played like fools. Admittedly, that could be the case, and it does make me wonder. I never thought of it that way before.

In any case, I could appreciate the story, and consider it as a believable course of events. I also believe in the philosophy that they described, and while it's good to be careful not to be taken advantage of, I'd rather do what I can whether or not it's needed than merely wish I'd done something. As it turned out, Trizeal is one of the most enjoyable games that I've played in recent years, despite its flaws. Furthermore, I certainly appreciate Triangle Service being around as an STG developer. They're new and they're different, but I don't see either of those as detrimental attributes. Exzeal and SPM are good examples of progress, and I'm happy to have helped make this possible.

Anyway. It's very confusing to see people working out how to get through Last Hope on composite video, while others have trouble on much higher-quality displays. I have color-deficient vision, so I'll have no chance if there is a level with a red background and green bullets.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:55 pm

bloodflowers wrote: 1) Not especially. Triangle Service appealed to the community, NG:DEV already had a community who were almost certain to buy anything they made. Both used the community as a milking ground for sales, just in different ways. Being part of that near-guaranteed sales demographic, I would have bought them both anyway.

2) Yes. I found Trizeal to be more playable despite the large number of flaws present. It was a definite improvement over XII-Stag. Again, I'd point out that he didn't register on the forum and tell people they were wrong. Maybe I'd change my mind if I saw an interview with the guy where he denies the flaws. If it had not been for this bullish attitude, I would have said I'd buy any future shooters NG:DEV make. Now I'll wait before I buy.

WOW. And I thought some of my early comments were harsh.

I don't think RHE was out of line...he's just passionate about his project. Nothing wrong with that, he certainly wasn't vulgar with his replies. I found Last Hope much more enjoyable than Trizeal. I also don't think Triangle Service should be commended for the equivalent of giving you oral pleasure and then asking you to buy their game/product. I found RHE's responses to criticism acceptable, and without insult.

I explained my issues with "Last Hope" early on...its not perfect nor is it my favorite shmup...but its a good effort and I look forward to the next project from NG:DEV Team.

I intend to support just about any shmup maker right now including TS...there are so few of em.

qatmix · Post by **qatmix** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:00 pm

charlie chong wrote:
Tigershark wrote: i personally never had any interest in this.. so many people will just buy ANY shooter released for the d.c ...sure i love d.c too but not enough too buy every game..chaos field,trizeal and last hope all look weak to me...
i bought under defeat and though that was pretty pish so god knows what these are like

You are missing out on Trizeal, its a great game, it may have a few minor faults but from a gameplay point of view its one of my favourite shooters of the last few years.

anyway, back on topic.

I have Last Hope, and have only played it for about 3hours at the moment and can also agree on the fact that there are a few times when the backgrounds are overcomplicated. Also the shrapnel being orange hot when its initially drawn isnt great as you initally think the ships are shooting lots of bullets at you (although RHE is correct the ships shooting patterns are quite strightforward).

It would also have been good to have made the 1st level more easy though, as most games like to hold you hand at the start

The game does suffer from lack of external playtesting, however there are many issues that the guys could have had regarding this. You cant just send out builds of your game to anyone, as you dont want the game you have spent all of your hard effort on being spread all over the internet.

Other than those issues which are quite significant in some areas, Im finding the game to be challenging and quite addictive. I definately dont regret the £20 I paid for it (inc postage from playasia).

I also dont think that RHE is out of line with his comments, he was not rude. He is going to be passionate about a game which he has spent six years on

I think its an admiral effort for the first game. I look forward to seeing the next shooter from these guys and hope its not going to take another six years.