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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:24 am 


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Can I just call additional attention to that? "auto-fire breaks the first Raiden", like Jesus fucking Christ can a human being know any less about a topic while acting like they "know enough"?

Can we all agree to never ever ever say "auto-fire breaks Dodonpachi"? Please? Please. I can't take these people anymore, people just believe their own bullshit so hard.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:48 am 


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Despatche wrote:
Can I just call additional attention to that? "auto-fire breaks the first Raiden", like Jesus fucking Christ can a human being know any less about a topic while acting like they "know enough"?

Can we all agree to never ever ever say "auto-fire breaks Dodonpachi"? Please? Please. I can't take these people anymore, people just believe their own bullshit so hard.


How about a respectful, logically-sound response instead of jumping straight to the attacks. Have you even played the first Raiden?

*Edit: Listen, if you really want to go there, I have no problem with you propping up long, tedious games on pedestals like they're the second coming of Christ (*cough* Silpheed TLP, Raiden V, Tatsujin Ou). Everyone's entitled to enjoy what they do for the reasons they do. However, the way you approach these conversations lacks any semblance of tact, as if what's in your head is the reality everyone must conform to. You have a history of what seems like intentionally going against the grain, and while I would normally respect something like that, instead of trying to have a respectful conversation, you immediately jump to, "Fuck you guys, you're all dumb." Sorry if guys like myself have to point that out every now and again. Grow up.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:22 am 


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Oh fucking please. Why should I have patience for people who have no patience for anything? Why do people who literally run their lives on their or their friends' personal opinions think they can accuse me of anything remotely resembling forcing my perceptions on people, and why do they always do that when I point this out to them?

Like, you are literally talking about Raiden, a long and tedious game itself. An actually long and tedious game, not just one people like to meme about like Tatsujin Ou or whatever. There's absolutely nothing you could possibly say that could make you look any less petty. No respectful or logically-sound response I have would ever work on people like you. You know that as much as I do, so please drop the pretense.

Raiden and Raiden II/DX still suck by the way. And Raiden is still not playable without autofire.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:39 am 


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I wouldn't say it's unplayable (Vludi knows what he's talking about in that respect), but I certainly wouldn't recommend it either. 30 Hz autofire shreds through some bosses in ways that almost makes me feel bad for them, but I'd rather do that than shred through my hand. I suppose you could always use a slower autofire rate if you're looking for more challenge...
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:06 am 



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Now that you mention it, the one thing that could make Raiden unplayable is that atrocious graphical bug if you bomb boss 3 (is that even a thing in the pcb?).
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:43 am 



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Vludi wrote:
Now that you mention it, the one thing that could make Raiden unplayable is that atrocious graphical bug if you bomb boss 3 (is that even a thing in the pcb?).


Pretty sure it's a mame bug.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:58 am 


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I mean I greatly respect that video. I really do! Thing is basically no other game will require that kind of effort. Only weird broken games like Lethal Thunder would ever fight you like that.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:05 am 


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Despatche wrote:
Oh fucking pleaseWhy should I have patience for people who have no patience for anything? Why do people who literally run their lives on their or their friends' personal opinions think they can accuse me of anything remotely resembling forcing my perceptions on people, and why do they always do that when I point this out to them?...


These are pretty drastic assumptions to be making about myself and others. Who are you to assume one's overall gaming (and stg) experience and how their opinions of games are formed?

I make it a point to only comment on things I can see with my own eyes, and what I see in your text is pretty clear: A "holier than thou" attitude unwilling to have a decent, respectful conversation, and unwilling to understand what makes the other side's opinions tick. Instead we get things more akin to, "Nah nah nahhhh, this is what I think, I don't care what you think. *shuts door on face*".

Despatche wrote:
Like, you are literally talking about Raiden, a long and tedious game itself. An actually long and tedious game, not just one people like to meme about like Tatsujin Ou or whatever.


By what standard is the original Raiden "long and tedious"? I can tell you that when I think "long," I first think of something measurable like a game's actual length. For comparison, on a good run the original Raiden takes 40 minutes to complete. Raiden V (as an example) is double that.

When it comes to "tedium", I consider a wide variety of factors, and I don't do so lightly: How many enemy types are there and how well are they implemented? Am I attacking the same handful of patterns repeatedly with minor increases in difficulty, or is the game mixing things up and constantly offering me distinct fights from earlier parts of the game? How about aesthetics, as these play a role in my enjoyment of a game: Am I looking at the same or similar backgrounds seemingly endlessly? Is the music varied and dynamic, or are the same handful of notes on loop? Certain combinations of these have a better chance of fully keeping my attention than others, but it doesn't mean I can't warm up to the games that don't initially hit that sweet spot (like Raiden V, something I have warmed up to).

Despatche wrote:
There's absolutely nothing you could possibly say that could make you look any less petty. No respectful or logically-sound response I have would ever work on people like you. You know that as much as I do, so please drop the pretense.


It's hard to know until you try. I've at least done my part.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:12 am 


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Tedium also depends on how fun you find the game's core (the part that you aren't changing all the time) - what's "tedium" to one may very well be a "fun gameplay loop" to another. If you don't find that satisfactory then it doesn't matter how much the rest varies or whether it's five minutes or five hours, any nuance within is just going to be overlooked.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:32 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
Tedium also depends on how fun you find the game's core (the part that you aren't changing all the time) - what's "tedium" to one may very well be a "fun gameplay loop" to another. If you don't find that satisfactory then it doesn't matter how much the rest varies or whether it's five minutes or five hours, any nuance within is just going to be overlooked.


I agree.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:49 am 


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Despatche wrote:
I dunno. Raiden II is pretty hard but it's not that huge of a jump over the original.

Quite the contrary. Raiden II's third stage is about as hard as the final stage in the first game, and it only gets more harrowing from there. The toughest section in the first game (such as the sniping drones in the final stage) can still be managed with a solid knowledge of the stage and dodging on the spot, but if you're just slightly off your rhythm with sweeping across the screen in II, you probably either have to bomb or die. What makes II and DX so excruciatingly tough is that you actually have to take your time - you want to move laterally in an almost leisure manner so that bullets barely miss you, allowing you to maximize the dodges per manoeuver, as it were. However, since bullets get so frighteningly fast, you (or I at the very least) start to panic and just start to move left and right at full speed, thus cornering yourself.

In fact, the jump in difficulty from the first Raiden to the second is one of the most pronounced ones I can think of when it comes to shmup sequels (specifically first game -> second game). There's also Rayforce -> Raystorm and Dragon Spirit -> Dragon Saber, but that's about all.

Despatche wrote:
Thing about SSS is that there are, in fact, weapons besides the white weapon. The white weapon is just seriously OP, not like the red weapon in Raiden where it's almost required just to play the game on a basic level.

I strongly doubt that, too. The regular shot is the only way to consistently control space ahead of you, you simply cannot take out a large unit of tanks with either the laser or the flamethrower in time - there are instances where the flamethrower can be extremely potent, but it always has a blind spot somewhere, which is not desirable in a game where every enemy is so deadly. On paper, checkpoint recovery in Same!³ is easier than it is in Raiden, but for the purpose of actually clearing the game, dying too soon will still obliterate your run since all you do is limp from one checkpoint to another. It's probably going to take you a dozen lives or so to actually get through an entire stage in the late game, and that's only if you're playing well.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:23 pm 


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I too have been playing Raiden (on pcb) a lot this year as one of my New Years resolutions was to NMNB the game which is hard for me as my brain works in slo-mo when it comes to shmups (argh). But I do find the game addicting so it's no trouble at all to play a few rounds every night just to relieve stress from the day (yes, by playing Raiden lol). There's something about the gameplay style, graphics and sound that make the game stand out to me. I do play with auto-fire (jnx spitfire) and yeah, honestly, it feels a bit like a cheat most of the time but also makes the game more fun to play for me personally. I can still play OK without auto fire, but tend to use the laser more and after a while my hand hurts. I'd rather enjoy the game using auto fire than worry about the specific intention from the developers.

Also, the game may have its faults, but some people act like shmup purists are putting it on a pedestal for no good reason. I don't think that's true, and one reason is to look back at how successful it was during its time in the arcades. In a way, in the 90's the consumer spoke with their wallet and they said they like Raiden quite a bit. That's not to say it doesn't have flaws, or that it hasn't been surpassed in many areas as game development matured over the years, but it still retains many of the good qualities people found enjoying back in the day.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:41 pm 


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There's no denying Despatche's points of criticism on Raiden's gameplay are totally valid.
Yes, these games stray from the path of what would be considered comprehensive gameplay as far as shmups go.
They are cruelly designed, even more so than their contemporary peers, but only because they take to the extreme the idea of being arcade quarter munchers.

On the other hand, Seibu was genius in also providing great graphic/music to go along with the suffering. From the slow scrolling speed that allowed you to marvel at the terrains down below (cows flocking, humans running over bridges, floating roads, etc.), no other title at the time merged the sci-fi motif with close-to-home aesthetics like Raiden did, and that seems to have hit a nerve with audiences everywhere.

Plus the homing missiles, man.
Definitely one the best, coolest-looking secondary weapons ever designed in shmup history.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:47 pm 



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For a reason I can't fully explain, I smile every time I die in this game.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:21 pm 



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Despatches criticisms always seem to boil down to "what's too hard for me is deeply flawed and bad" and "the ones easiest enough for me to clear are awesome and refined masterpieces", not really seeing much depth to the point beyond that.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:35 pm 


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But he likes Tatsujin Ou.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:37 pm 



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EmperorIng wrote:
But he likes Tatsujin Ou.


does he? or does he like the idea of tatsujin oh? has he cleared it?


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:38 pm 


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dannycheeto wrote:
Despatches criticisms always seem to boil down to "what's too hard for me is deeply flawed and bad" and "the ones easiest enough for me to clear are awesome and refined masterpieces", not really seeing much depth to the point beyond that.

Now that's just bait and not at all consistent with anything he's said... not that there's anything wrong with preferring easier games either. I find his criticisms of Raiden valid, albeit hyperbolic.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:46 pm 



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Shepardus wrote:
dannycheeto wrote:
Despatches criticisms always seem to boil down to "what's too hard for me is deeply flawed and bad" and "the ones easiest enough for me to clear are awesome and refined masterpieces", not really seeing much depth to the point beyond that.

Now that's just bait and not at all consistent with anything he's said... not that there's anything wrong with preferring easier games either. I find his criticisms of Raiden valid, albeit hyperbolic.


no not really just if he lists raidens from best to worst it correlates with difficulty.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:00 pm 


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You can post-you're-scores me all you want, clp, I don't have to prove anything to you. You're the kind of person who demands escalating amounts of "proof". I don't have the patience for that.

I generally put Raiden II over the first, so no. I put Raiden III over IV for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with difficulty; whether III is harder than IV depends on how you play IV. Also I literally just put Same! Same! Same! 1P, one of the hardest games in the genre, over Raiden and Raiden II. Like if you just remade Raiden and Raiden II with the same difficulty but with all the weird design flaws removed, they'd be amazing games.
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Last edited by Despatche on Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:01 pm 


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dannycheeto wrote:
Shepardus wrote:
dannycheeto wrote:
Despatches criticisms always seem to boil down to "what's too hard for me is deeply flawed and bad" and "the ones easiest enough for me to clear are awesome and refined masterpieces", not really seeing much depth to the point beyond that.

Now that's just bait and not at all consistent with anything he's said... not that there's anything wrong with preferring easier games either. I find his criticisms of Raiden valid, albeit hyperbolic.


no not really just if he lists raidens from best to worst it correlates with difficulty.

But it's inconsistent with pretty much every other game mentioned in this thread, e.g. SSS. Difficulty's pretty subjective anyway. It's like you didn't even bother reading the criticisms Despatche actually bothered listing out when he was asked to.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:02 pm 


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Difficulty has some objectivity to it. There is such a thing as "raw difficulty", and an important part of that is putting resources to the side.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:44 am 


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dannycheeto wrote:
no not really just if he lists raidens from best to worst it correlates with difficulty.

No way, a 1-all of IV is way easier than a clear of III or V. V gives you a ton of "lives", sure, but it's fairly long and really stingy with bombs compared to the others; it seems like all of the people who talk about how easy it is haven't actually cleared it. III is just much tougher than IV in general.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:38 am 


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I enjoy the US/set 2 version of Raiden, but not quite enough to defend very passionately, as it's certainly a game full of various flaws. I can't really agree with some of Despatche's more hyperbolic posts, but there's some truth to what he's saying.

dannycheeto wrote:
Shepardus wrote:
dannycheeto wrote:
Despatches criticisms always seem to boil down to "what's too hard for me is deeply flawed and bad" and "the ones easiest enough for me to clear are awesome and refined masterpieces", not really seeing much depth to the point beyond that.

Now that's just bait and not at all consistent with anything he's said... not that there's anything wrong with preferring easier games either. I find his criticisms of Raiden valid, albeit hyperbolic.


no not really just if he lists raidens from best to worst it correlates with difficulty.
dannycheeto wrote:
Exy wrote:
Eh

Memorising stages is even less fun than dying to sniper tanks, tbqh.


then continue to fail.


2/10

You should stick to your "no one is worthy enough to desire Guwange 2" shtick, it's actually pretty funny whereas this just comes off as mildly pathetic. We all know you can do better than this.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:56 am 



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Square_air it's literally a fact that if you ignore the way a game works and don't apply the correct approach you WILL continue to fail at it by applying the same flawed methodology of "i'll just try reacting to everything", what's the mystery here? as for the previous it wasn't meant to be funny, everything i said was 100% truth and was mistaken for elitism by those insecure types who need to just mindlessly collect shit to attach to their image because they have no intent or fortitude to learn anything to even a competent degree to get the most out of things so they opt for short term dopamine release from sick grabs like the man children they are, empty vacuous sad dorks basically. The truth is never popular here nor is opinions not liked by those who want a safe space justified by infantile notions like "hurr be nice" as one mod said.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 am 


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dannycheeto wrote:
what's the mystery here?

The mystery is how you feel such a need to tactlessly inject your proselytization of dedicating one's life to playing a video game into a forum that clearly has no interest.
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Last edited by Shepardus on Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:44 am 


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Square_Air wrote:
You should stick to your "no one is worthy enough to desire Guwange 2" shtick, it's actually pretty funny whereas this just comes off as mildly pathetic. We all know you can do better than this.

Nice, thanks.

Hey, let's go play like, Mad Shark, or Shienryu, or something. Better games. Mad Shark is even ridiculously hard.
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:28 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:38 pm 


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So by memorizing he means "memorize the whole queue of several thousand inputs that you do with pressing buttons" yeah? So every run is totally identical?
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 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:29 pm 



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I think he means memorize what happens onscreen but your post made me think of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6UVOQ0F44

Has anyone done that with a shmup yet?


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