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 Post subject: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:01 pm 


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Tonight I've downloaded this game following the recommendations of a website that claims that this is a very good and addictive shmup. Really? Are you serious? What kind of player can consider himself a shmup lover and say this is a good game? Analog control, inertia in the movement of the ship, stupid and boring graphics and level design... that's what I found in one minute of gameplay, which was enough to decide to exit and delete the folder. Seriously, what's wrong with western people making shoot'em ups. I remember Sine Mora and all the hype around it, and when I tried it all I found was a game almost as pathetic as this Sky Force. There are exceptions, for course, such as Locomalito, but in general I think most European and American developers do not have a clear idea what this genre is about.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:29 pm 


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Pretty rude opinion here. This game is at first designed to be a Freemium, meaning that you start tiny, must play every day to upgrade your ship and get bigger.
As you progress, you unlock more firepower, more stages, more difficult settings.

I had a pretty good time with it on mobile device and PS4. Harder difficulties sometimes give a nice sensation of oldschool shooters, with a somehow permissive hitbox. The inertia can be removed on PS4 by playing with the dpad iirc.

Well, I'm not saying this is the best shmup ever, but a pretty nice effort in making a game which may be both entertaining and challenging while it lasts.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:04 am 


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I hear what the OP is saying, but it could've been phrased in a more positive way for sure. It's likely that someone who's newer to the genre would find more value in it than us seasoned shmuppers would. For example, I know I used to really enjoy Tyrian when I was just getting into shmups around 1998. These days, I find it hard to go back to given its game mechanics deficiencies, but at the time the sheer amount of stuff in it kept me interested. Sine Mora I started out disliking, but I do appreciate the time mechanic-- the game could be refined a lot more, but it's neat that they were trying something new. And sometimes we find ourselves cutting old shmups too much slack. For example, I found a bunch of things I didn't think were good design decisions when I revisited Thunderforce 4 (it's still really good, but...)
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:43 am 


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Of course you have to judge things by comparison. I also played Xenon 2, Blood Money, Tyirian or Raptor with my PC in the old and dark days, when we had to get along with what we had, which was not much. But now, we can see how terribly bad they perform and play so we have to admit they are very mediocre shmups. Should we be indulgent with those flaws as we are with old graphics or old technology in general? I'm not sure. Anyway, what is not acceptable is to be indulgent with bad playability in modern games. I can accept that a indie game has poor graphics or whatever because you don't have a budget or enough people or time to make it better, but at least make it fun to play. In a shmup the fine and precise control of the ship is so basic and essential... If you can't get that right, better try creating another type of videogame.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:45 pm 



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Been playing shmups for 35 years and I love SF:R.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:28 pm 


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Sky Force series started on J2ME phones, if i remember it right.

It's pretty much for same target audience as Jet'n'Guns and other "shmups that NON-shmuppers love playing".

Quote:
but in general I think most European and American developers do not have a clear idea what this genre is about.


and i'm sure (some of) those people think the same about japanese/asian school of shmups and danmaku.

Quote:
indie game has poor graphics


bringing up graphics debate is risky :mrgreen: japanese shmups can't do "cutting edge" graphics anymore since when arcade died and they lost budgets for bigger production values.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm 



Joined: 03 May 2012
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qmish wrote:
Sky Force series started on J2ME phones, if i remember it right.

On smartphones and PDA like Symbian and Windows Mobile. And it's very different - no shop, no microtransactions, just pure arcade action from the beginning to the end. It's even has three different ships with different speed.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:37 am 


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Elaphe wrote:
Of course you have to judge things by comparison. I also played Xenon 2, Blood Money, Tyirian or Raptor with my PC in the old and dark days, when we had to get along with what we had, which was not much. But now, we can see how terribly bad they perform and play so we have to admit they are very mediocre shmups. Should we be indulgent with those flaws as we are with old graphics or old technology in general? I'm not sure. Anyway, what is not acceptable is to be indulgent with bad playability in modern games. I can accept that a indie game has poor graphics or whatever because you don't have a budget or enough people or time to make it better, but at least make it fun to play. In a shmup the fine and precise control of the ship is so basic and essential... If you can't get that right, better try creating another type of videogame.


I don't look at some of these classic PC shooters as "flawed", so much as that they are simply a different style of shoot 'em up. Games like Raptor, Tyrian, and Stargunner revolve more around endurance and smart use of weapon upgrade shops, rather than super reactive, dodge-heavy gameplay. Just because they aren't recreating an arcade-style feel that most of us are used to doesn't inherently make them bad. Played on their terms, they are solid, enjoyable games with distinct visual styles and memorable soundtracks.

Speaking of Sky Force specifically, it falls into that category but I don't think it's great. It lacks a unique identity and it feels wholly generic. The feel of the game and a cookie-cutter sound package plays into this, and it's an issue I find with a lot of indie shmup releases when I'm perusing the Steam store for new shooters.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:24 am 


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I've heard good things about it from people in real life, whatever they are doing with that game it has some traction with average game players, indefensible decisions like inertia aside.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:18 pm 


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guigui wrote:
Pretty rude opinion here.

I have observed a tendency to walk on broken glass here lately that is unhealthy. Shooter fans have become so hopeless and depressed with the modern state of the genre that they frequently seem unwilling to be critical of modern releases when it comes to terrible design or anti-consumer behavior, out of what I can only presume is fear of scaring off potential in some manner.

What is it you actually want in a game? If you just eat up everything crapped out in the genre without ever expressing dislike, you're never going to get it.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:27 pm 


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I have to concur with the rude opinion expressed by the OP.

SFR it's not a shooter, it's a grind to unlock weapons and buy improvements, with all the stages disconnected and locked behind an achievement barrier. It's the exact opposite of what a shmup should be.

It's obvious the developer wanted to give his game more longevity, but this shows how little developers know about what a shmup should be: longevity and replayability stands in the scoring system and goals like 1CC'ing the game.

I have unfortunately bought this because it was on sale for 1€ and it was available for Mac. If it was anything more than 1€, I would have probably asked for a refund.

In the end, this shows the direction the gaming industry (and developers) has taken: creating games trying to appeal the most possible vast audience, without any kind of respect to a genre's foundation.
And SFR, imho, is one of the best examples of this trend.

If you want to make a shmup more interesting to "outsiders", then create Novice modes similar to Cave's X360 ports and M2's recent work and that's how you appeal a more broad user base.
Put in auto-bomb, so people won't stop playing after 5 minutes because "1 shot and you're dead, how can that be fun? This game is way too punishing."

EDIT: I've witnessed a similar case with Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon, where people were complaining about the damage knock-back often resulting in them falling to a pit to instant death. That was ridiculous and what's more, there's an easy mode with the knockback disabled. Bah!


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:17 pm 


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OmKol wrote:
On smartphones and PDA like Symbian and Windows Mobile. And it's very different - no shop, no microtransactions, just pure arcade action from the beginning to the end. It's even has three different ships with different speed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHVsIwR_XzE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojh_O26mk6o

I mean, technically you are "right", but

1) Symbian was using advanced java and/or other language
2) While Symbian was "smartphone" back in days, we CAN'T compare it to what we call as smartphones since when iphone and samsung galaxy happened

Anyway, thanks for insight on differences!

Quote:
If you want to make a shmup more interesting to "outsiders", then create Novice modes similar to Cave's X360 ports and M2's recent work and that's how you appeal a more broad user base.
Put in auto-bomb, so people won't stop playing after 5 minutes because "1 shot and you're dead, how can that be fun? This game is way too punishing."


Those "Outsiders" in general not even remotely interested in 1CC. And yes, they prefer having 20 different levels with save/load instead of 5 levels. Also they want unlockable weapons, many weapons. :| Basically, same people who choose Doom2D over Contra.

Quote:
Just because they aren't recreating an arcade-style


PC crowd was always more about "simulation" and "possibilities". That's why games like Deus Ex or Jagged Alliance.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:34 pm 


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https://youtu.be/GE_f5JFBJjQ

Bithead1000 likes this game and that’s good enough for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:38 pm 


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Since this game is being discussed, here goes a noob question:
is Sky Force Reloaded the same as Sky Force Anniversary?
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:26 pm 


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Seems they're two different games, there's a bundle with both of them in it.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:35 pm 


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schnuth wrote:
https://youtu.be/GE_f5JFBJjQ

Bithead1000 likes this game and that’s good enough for me.

"This internet person likes it so I like it" is a pretty bad take and I hope you understand why.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:03 pm 



Joined: 09 Jan 2019
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I bought the game at a Steam sale, and i remember playing it for like 20 minutes and...i never had any desire to get back to it unlike many other shumps.

I just remember it feeling pretty boring and generic with nothing to make me come back to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:09 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
schnuth wrote:
https://youtu.be/GE_f5JFBJjQ

Bithead1000 likes this game and that’s good enough for me.

"This internet person likes it so I like it" is a pretty bad take and I hope you understand why.


Bithead is not just any internet person. He’s the host of the greatest video game program in the history of human civilization.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:38 am 


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schnuth wrote:
Bithead is not just any internet person. He’s the host of the greatest video game program in the history of human civilization.


You know who they should ask about Sky Force Reloaded? This dude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAqYYLt5Ip8
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 am 


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schnuth wrote:
Bithead is not just any internet person. He’s the host of the greatest video game program in the history of human civilization.

Regardless, building your opinions strictly on someone else's opinions is... aggressively shallow? Sometimes it's good to think for yourself :)
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:34 am 


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trap15 wrote:
schnuth wrote:
Bithead is not just any internet person. He’s the host of the greatest video game program in the history of human civilization.

Regardless, building your opinions strictly on someone else's opinions is... aggressively shallow? Sometimes it's good to think for yourself :)


:o it's not how it works

You don't blindly follow others opinions, surely

Key to reviewers etc. is that you choose person with whom you have similar taste and worldview and only after that you trust its opinion because you know that in most cases you will totally agree (however exclusions happen). That's why you don't for example listen up to this or that magazine or website or channel, but specifically to author who proved for you to have similar taste/view, who pays attention and cares for things in games/movies/music you do too, so it helps. And of course it builds up through the years.

At least how I see that.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:53 am 



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qmish wrote:
OmKol wrote:
On smartphones and PDA like Symbian and Windows Mobile. And it's very different - no shop, no microtransactions, just pure arcade action from the beginning to the end. It's even has three different ships with different speed.

2) While Symbian was "smartphone" back in days, we CAN'T compare it to what we call as smartphones since when iphone and samsung galaxy happened

Of course Android and iOS is much better but Symbian devices was much more advanced than J2ME. The whole console Nokia N-Gage is on Symbian.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:05 am 


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louisg wrote:
You know who they should ask about Sky Force Reloaded? This dude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAqYYLt5Ip8


:lol: FFS Is that even real?


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:46 pm 


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The thing IMO with Western-made shmups, is that you have to pay a lot more attention to the developers' background and influences. While the median new JP shmup we hear of is unlikely to have all that grinding/inertia/shop/slow pacing/analog control nonsense, Western teams may have more incentives (or think they have more incentives) to target casual players who won't see a difference.

That said, there are a bunch of examples of great shmups made by Western developers, many of them who actually are on this forum, and that's because those devs are a lot more passionate about JP-style shooting. Off the top of my head, we recently had Blue Revolver, Pawarumi, ZeroRanger, Jet Buster, Flight of Pigarus, and I am probably missing a few others. There's also games like Fire Lancer, ZenoDeath or WestGunne that are still in developement.

My point is, you're probably right about the Western developers as a whole, but if you focus on those who actually like JP shmups and hang out here, this statement isn't true.
Also, in hindsight, it makes sense that the website you've checked would call Sky Force addictive if it has all the usual Skinnerbox bullshit. I feel that when "addictive" is used in reviews, it usually refers (in a supposedly positive way) to games that use psychological tricks to makes you play more instead of being actually fun enough in their own right to make you want to play them again.

qmish wrote:
Key to reviewers etc. is that you choose person with whom you have similar taste and worldview and only after that you trust its opinion because you know that in most cases you will totally agree (however exclusions happen). That's why you don't for example listen up to this or that magazine or website or channel, but specifically to author who proved for you to have similar taste/view, who pays attention and cares for things in games/movies/music you do too, so it helps. And of course it builds up through the years.

I think that if you care about reviews, that's indeed the best way to see it.

You don't ask your mom recommendations for shmups, so why would do you ask a reviewer that probably has more in common with her than you for the same thing? :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:48 pm 


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Trust me the game looks generic at first but gets vastly better, and I like the grinding aspect


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:42 am 


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schnuth wrote:
https://youtu.be/GE_f5JFBJjQ

Bithead1000 likes this game and that’s good enough for me.


Leave here at once...
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:09 am 


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I don't have any opinion on the game, but attacking people for liking something has always been incredibly lame in my book. I'll admit that I've done this myself in the past, but thankfully, it's something I've grown out of.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:16 am 


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I don't see that happening here though? I only see people discussing their opinions of the game. Maybe their language is a bit aggressive, but it's not directed at people that like it, but the game itself.
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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:30 am 


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Haven't watched footage of this but inertia is one of the cardinal sins so I can understand the negativity.


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 Post subject: Re: Sky Force Reloaded, what a piece of sh...!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:11 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
I don't see that happening here though? I only see people discussing their opinions of the game. Maybe their language is a bit aggressive, but it's not directed at people that like it, but the game itself.


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What kind of player can consider himself a shmup lover and say this is a good game?
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