A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

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Mark_MSX
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A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site


Hi everyone,

I would just like to start off this post by saying that it is not my intention to spit in anyone’s eye or spite anyone’s work. I really appreciate all the work everyone has put in over the years, in terms of recording scores and preserving them. Also, I would like to say that I make this post out of genuine care for the shmup community and the shmups forums. If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t bother to put all of this work together. Seriously I have put less work into college papers.

So, with that out of the way, what I would like to talk about today is the need for the shmups forum to update how we keep track of scores. I believe that if we do not update our methods soon, there are a number of benefits we will miss out on and leave on the table. To give my full William Shakespeare view on the matter, I have composed this document:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sBc4n ... r2JDd-8pCh

However, if you are not in the mood to do a good deal of reading, I am going to provide a concise breakdown of my thoughts in this post. Again though, if you want the entire picture, please take the time to read the document.

Here is the summary of my thoughts:

Problems with our current record keeping methods

1. It is fragmented. There is no unified database. There is no way to quickly compile statistical data. For example, if I was interested in seeing a player’s entire resume of scores, I would have to manually go through all the different game threads and hope I didn’t miss a score.
2. None of our scores (that I found) have video links attached to them. Our scores are just recorded names and numbers.(Replay links don’t count, I’ll explain why soon).
3. Many of our score threads are too small and intimate. The people in charge of the scores are often high scoring players. This discourages newer players with lower scores from posting out of fear of being judged or other social reasons (I’ll explain the importance of low scores soon). The fact that people have the opportunity to readily comment on your score, since it is posted on a forum thread, adds to this problem.
4. Many of our score threads appear abandoned and haven’t been updated in years. Take this one for example: viewtopic.php?t=36854
Poor Plasticxo at the bottom of the thread never gets his score posted.
5. The majority of our score threads are top-heavy, meaning that the majority of the recorded scores are being submitted by expert players. The number of recorded scores is often extremely small, which further discourages newer players, as a low score would really stand out and look ridiculous.
6. There is no standardized system of deciding what we do with arrangements and variations of games. Sometimes they have their own thread and sometimes they don’t.
7. It is cumbersome and confusing to track how a game’s scores have evolved over time. Dates of when scores were submitted are often not readily available.
8. Aesthetically, forum posts appear outdated, like we are a community stuck in the past.

Why These Problems Matter

• In other gaming communities, their scoreboards, time boards, ladders, and leader boards are the central hub for player interaction and game play content. They are the avenue in which new players are introduced to the community and assimilated into it. If we don’t make a change, our deficiency in this area will be a continual barrier for growth as a community.
• As things are, our current player base has limited interaction with each other, when it comes to sharing our scores and competing. Only a small minority of expert players have their scores visible and actively compete with each other. To the average and beginner players, these high scores might as well be flags on the moon. This disparity decreases overall community participation and engagement. This is similar to trying to learn a fighting game, where your only competition are expert players who will completely destroy you. Beginner and average players need an opportunity to interact with each other.
• Without readily accessible video to accompany our scores, outside visitors of the forum (who might be initially interested) have no content to get them hooked. Names and numbers are meaningless to them. For example, it is not uncommon for casual people to go to a spreedrun.com page and watch a bunch of speed running vods of a particular game. Right now this is impossible with our current system. Casual observers are not going to have the motivation or know-how to upload replay files.
• If our scorekeeping appears outdated or under populated, this gives new people and outsiders the impression that these shmups are no longer being played actively and that the scene is dead. It also decreases the prestige of our top scores.
• And obviously, it sucks if your score doesn’t ever get posted because the thread owner left the scene and the thread has been abandoned.

My Proposed Solution

First off, I would just like to say that, when it comes to the details, I think we as a community can work together to figure out what works for us the best. This is not my pet project or anything, just a change I think needs to happen (though I am fully invested in helping make the change happen, if that is what is needed).

So, to address the problems I’ve listed above, here is what I think our new score-keeping system needs.

1. It needs to be a unified database. It can continue to be managed by a variety of people, but the data needs to be centralized.
2. Video needs to be strongly encouraged. Obviously there are some barriers depending on people’s setups and stuff, but the year is 2018, we can make this happen. There will be scores without video, but we should aim for the majority of scores having video. Also, the video doesn't have to be direct capture, people can do off-the-screen capture too.
3. We need the scoreboard to feel less personal, and more general. This will encourage a wider range of scores, rather than just a small list of top scores. A healthy spread of scores is good for everyone. It also adds prestige to the top scores.
4. Finally, and most importantly, we need our new method of tracking scores to be connected directly to the forum. As in, a first time visitor opens the site, sees the “hi scores” section, clicks on it, and is immediately directed to the new scoreboard in some fashion or another.

Models we can learn from

While speaking to my discord about this idea, I got a great deal of very helpful feedback. One of them being that there are currently two websites that are close to what I am envisioning. There is the French hi score website:

http://hiscores.shmup.com/

or Restart Syndrome:

http://www.restartsyndrome.com/

Personally of the two, I like the French site better. Really, I’d say it is perfect other than being light on videos.

Again though, as great as these websites are, the problem with them is that they are external to the forums. What we need is an internal solution of some kind, as referring players to these other sites is just fragmenting our already small player base.

So what should we do? (The Action Plan)

Overall, this is the part of the proposal that could go a number of ways, depending on how things shake out. So, what I will do is list some possible outcomes we could work towards, ranked from best to worst. I am sure there are other plans we could put into action as well, but this is what I have come up with so far.

A++ tier Outcome:

That the mods and admin of these great forums decide to take me up on this idea and the hiscore section of the site is reworked and updated to reflect these changes.

B tier Outcome:


That the mods and admin agree to create a permanent and prominent link to either the French website or RS in the “hiscore” section and we work with them on integrating with the shmups forum.

Or

We build a new external website specifically for this purpose and it is integrated into the shmups forum. Here’s an example I’ve put together on my basic WordPress website (this is just for demonstration purposes, the new site would be much more robust and appealing).

https://shmuppodcast.wordpress.com/shmup-scoreboard/

C tier:

We, at the very least, go through and try to start cleaning up the system we have now and adding video links. Though, honestly, I feel like this effort would be better spent working towards an update.

So that’s what I for everyone. Hopefully this post generates constructive conversation about this topic. Also, when you do reply to this post, please try to focus on the larger picture, rather than just focusing in on some super specific minor detail, otherwise this conversation isn’t going to go anywhere.
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Shepardus
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Shepardus »

I haven't worked with it myself, but I imagine integrating phpBB with some third-party solution would be quite a demanding task.

Here's my perspective on certain points:

I mainly store my scores on Restart Syndrome (many thanks to CStarFlare for running that!) along with replay files, and cross-post them here when I feel like it. I feel that it works well enough, aside from when the site is missing a game or a game has the wrong fields or something. I don't post scores for competition's sake, I do it more as a form of personal record-keeping. Seeing other peoples' scores and having my scores added to the table promptly is nice but not the main reason I participate. I would still post scores even if there were no table at all and I were just doing it on something like Twitter (actually this is what I do for some games such as Cambria Sword).
Mark_MSX wrote:Aesthetically, forum posts appear outdated, like we are a community stuck in the past.
Like the games themselves?
Mark_MSX wrote:If our scorekeeping appears outdated or under populated, this gives new people and outsiders the impression that these shmups are no longer being played actively and that the scene is dead. It also decreases the prestige of our top scores.
That would be an accurate impression; most shmups really aren't being played actively, and the "scene" really is all but dead.
Mark_MSX wrote:Without readily accessible video to accompany our scores, outside visitors of the forum (who might be initially interested) have no content to get them hooked.
I don't see video content as much of a hook; I find most videos to be quite boring unless I were already interested in the game and there's no way I'm going to watch most of the videos people already do post. I don't think lack of videos is much of an issue - people who have any interest in sharing video already do so, and there's not much you can do about those who don't.
Mark_MSX wrote:We need the scoreboard to feel less personal, and more general. This will encourage a wider range of scores, rather than just a small list of top scores. A healthy spread of scores is good for everyone. It also adds prestige to the top scores.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. To me the bigger, "more general" scoreboards are the least interesting to me and the ones I care about the least. Extreme examples of this would be games with global online high scores, such as Ikaruga. Such boards address pretty much every point you have save the forum integration one, especially if they have downloadable replays. Frankly, however, I couldn't care less whether my score is #9270 or #8345; it's all just a big blur to me (assuming the boards aren't just dead like many are even with automatic score submission). I find them far more interesting when they're filtered down to my (nonexistent) friends list, but even so it doesn't matter all that much to me because I don't see scores as a primarily competitive or interactive thing. I'm just trying to have fun on my own, and score is one of many guides toward that goal.
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Lyv
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Lyv »

As a user of the French hi scores boards, I must say it's quite a great system, and really necessary for such a small and dwindling community.
I'm not too aware of the technical details, but if you want to exchange about this system, feel free to post in the English section of the forum or in this thread : http://forum.shmup.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19768

About what you say, there are two things I kinda disagree with :
- video replay should not be mandatory, because 1) some people can't record their runs (especially when played on original support) or 2) some people don't want to record their runs or 3) it's too much of a hassle, especially if you're in a phase where you get new scores every few days.
- leader boards here aren't really top-heavy imo (it ain't the chinese leaderboards...). The only weird thing is that some of them have a limited number of spots in the ranking, which is counter-productive.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by M.Knight »

Yeah, the French leaderboard system is really neat, and the dev who suggested the idea and implemented it is doing a great job!
It's actually integrated to the forum and isn't completely external the way Restart Syndrome is. IIRC, you have to be logged in to the forum to be able to submit a score. On top of that, the hiscores threads with automated leaderboards all have links to the score submission form in their first post, as well as the ranking itself.
The only thing the player has to do besides filling the small form is copy-pasting a condensed version of his submission and posting it on the thread, to notify the other players.

I definitely agree that an automated scorekeeping system would be a neat addition to this forum.

As for some of the specific points :

-Video replays : I am not sure we can force the players to provide videos, but encouraging them and giving the possibility to link a video with the score is a step in the right direction. If they have replays, that's cool. If they have an inp instead, sure why not. And if they only have a score, it's not the end of the world. Anyway, always asking for videos would actually be a deterrent for people who could throw in a some quick credits in a game they don't know inside-out yet and post the scores even if it's low, which is something you want to see happen more often. It's not everybody who'll go through the hassle of setting up a recording/replay saving system for a game in which they don't score that much.

Still, I understand the utmost importance of replays when the scores are very high. Not in order to verify if the score is true or not, but to help other players understand the strategies and stuff. If there are super high scores with zero reference as to how you can get them, it's not that motivating.

-Gap between the newcomers and experts : I don't think it is exactly the same as in fighting games since here you play on your own and can make progress at your own pace. It's true that smaller scores could be some approachables milestones to reach for newer players, but unless the game itself is super popular, there might not be lot of new players playing the game. Hopefully, if the submission process is fast and painless, that will make it easier for the potential new player to post its score. But you can't force a player to post a low score or create low scores out of thin air if there isn't anyone interested in the game who isn't already an expert.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by FRO »

You've really put a lot of thought into this, Mark. Kudos to you for your passion for the shmup community, and I would agree that there needs to be a better system for recording scores. The only thing I would add to the conversation is, in the absence of a video, would a photo of the score on screen be a sufficient verification? I don't have a streaming/recording setup yet, and even once I do, I'm not necessarily going to want to record every single attempt I make, especially for console games/versions. So for me, whipping out the trusty smartphone and snapping a pic of a good score would be my go-to, outside of when I was specifically streaming or recording. I'm not naive enough to believe that I'd always record my best runs, and that such situations would be more serendipitous than anything. Of course, there are cheats in some games, so folks are still on the honor system to an extent, but that's the way it is now with people just posting scores w/o any verification, so I feel like at least posting a picture of a high score is a step in the right direction.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by chum »

It's really not worth taking scoreboards this seriously when asian players don't use them. Ideally the scoreboards should be Japanese but still allow Western players, like PND's list (it's capped at a high level) https://thscore.pndsng.com/index.php or RF (allows everybody to contribute) http://score.royalflare.net/

If the scoreboards aren't worth anything in a global sense (as in, they aren't actually documenting the best scores achieved, and are leaving out 99% of arcade players who got anywhere in the game) then it is not worth talking about these points. You can't leave out all the asian players and call it a unified database, and given how de-centralized and personal playing is (with most not streaming, and many not recording replays) it can't be compared with speedrun leaderboards where streaming and a globalized community interaction is key.

I'm all for improving stuff but I want to avoid pretense that we can achieve an "unity". Scores-wise this community is just a small blip on the radar, and even if somehow we can form a good JP/EN/CN/KR global leaderboard that documents a lot of scores, we will either have to leave lots of people out because theres no video, or inevitably open up for many cheaters and endless cheater debates.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by ookitarepanda »

Go to the trading station and you'll see exactly why the high score tables don't matter. More people care about valuations and whether or not they can use their Batrider as a viable retirement strategy than how to actually play the game. We have French people on these forums whose most active threads are "What's it worth" and then put their PCBs in glass frames to put up in their houses.

Also, if you want videos to go with high scores, you wanna buy me a Sanwa VC02 and a dedicated streaming PC so that I can record video from my cab? Or should I just dangle my phone from a string and have it hold record from behind my head?
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

chum wrote:It's really not worth taking scoreboards this seriously when asian players don't use them. Ideally the scoreboards should be Japanese but still allow Western players, like PND's list (it's capped at a high level) https://thscore.pndsng.com/index.php or RF (allows everybody to contribute) http://score.royalflare.net/

If the scoreboards aren't worth anything in a global sense (as in, they aren't actually documenting the best scores achieved, and are leaving out 99% of arcade players who got anywhere in the game) then it is not worth talking about these points. You can't leave out all the asian players and call it a unified database, and given how de-centralized and personal playing is (with most not streaming, and many not recording replays) it can't be compared with speedrun leaderboards where streaming and a globalized community interaction is key.

I'm all for improving stuff but I want to avoid pretense that we can achieve an "unity". Scores-wise this community is just a small blip on the radar, and even if somehow we can form a good JP/EN/CN/KR global leaderboard that documents a lot of scores, we will either have to leave lots of people out because theres no video, or inevitably open up for many cheaters and endless cheater debates.
Hey man, thanks for the response.

When I wrote about a "unified database," I didn't mean unified as in it includes scores from everyone in the world (as that would be an impossible goal). I meant unified in that all the score data is kept in the same database. That way you can search for players and games and see stats about them -- such as how many scores a player has and what placings a player has and stuff like. The French site does this: http://hiscores.shmup.com/players
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

ookitarepanda wrote:Go to the trading station and you'll see exactly why the high score tables don't matter. More people care about valuations and whether or not they can use their Batrider as a viable retirement strategy than how to actually play the game. We have French people on these forums whose most active threads are "What's it worth" and then put their PCBs in glass frames to put up in their houses.

Also, if you want videos to go with high scores, you wanna buy me a Sanwa VC02 and a dedicated streaming PC so that I can record video from my cab? Or should I just dangle my phone from a string and have it hold record from behind my head?
I'm sorry if my post offended you man.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by chum »

Mark_MSX wrote: When I wrote about a "unified database," I didn't mean unified as in it includes scores from everyone in the world (as that would be an impossible goal). I meant unified in that all the score data is kept in the same database. That way you can search for players and games and see stats about them -- such as how many scores a player has and what placings a player has and stuff like. The French site does this: http://hiscores.shmup.com/players
just use Restart Syndrome
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

Reading through everyone's responses, it sounds like a large sticking point for everyone was my point of strongly encouraging players to provide video with the score submission. So I'll elaborate on that point a little.

The first thing I'd like to say is that I don't think that video should be mandatory, just encouraged. I agree with everyone's points that getting video might be too big of a hurdle for certain players, or many players might not care about recording their play. Shepardus also mentioned that he personally wouldn't be that interested in watching other people's replays, and I can understand that.

Overall, the idea of encouraging players to provide video for the runs is to provide more content as a community to people who are looking to get into shmups or learn more about a particular game. Video is a way to demonstrate how shmups are played to the wider gaming community. Having video also shows the various approaches and play styles people can use and gives more context to the scores we provide on the hiscore list.

I'd say that, overall, when you read my post and the ideas I put forward, try not to think how they will directly effect the seasoned player. As many of you have pointed out, it probably won't, especially if you know already about Restart Syndrome or hiscores.shmup.com. Instead, try and put yourself in the shoes of a new visitor to the shmups forum who is interested in looking up scores for a game and learning more about how that game is played.

I am not opposed to the idea of just using RS or hiscores.shmup.com. But the problem, currently, is that these sites are not obvious or accessible to people entering the shmup community.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Keade »

Mark_MSX wrote: Video needs to be strongly encouraged. Obviously there are some barriers depending on people’s setups and stuff, but the year is 2018, we can make this happen. There will be scores without video, but we should aim for the majority of scores having video. Also, the video doesn't have to be direct capture, people can do off-the-screen capture too.
Please explain how you are going to "encourage" it.
Unless it is a requirement, like input recordings are at MARP (I know that site is ugly, but still, I'm sad it wasn't mentionned alongside the others in this thread :oops: ), I think this is never going to "work".
I have always been a vocal advocate of such recordings, and it seems to me that most people don't care, or can't (because they play on original hardware for instance...ok that does not mean "can't", but that is much more complicated and expensive to set up).
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by CStarFlare »

I do really love the French shmups.com site. It's a perfect community centred solution and is clearly built by someone who knows how to code rather than someone who trial and errored his way through PHP before getting bored when the site had basic functionality (which is what restart syndrome is).

I'm not sure I care so much about videos. There's a lot of generally worthless videos online and even scores that people are proud of don't actually get watched unless you're literally Jaimers-tier. People looking for demonstrations would be better served watching demo-specific videos (ideally those edited and commented on to break down what is happening and why as well as how to do it) or just rewatching WR videos. Digging through videos of moderately OK scores for insights is going to be a waste of time unless you just want to watch the game be played - and one only needs one of those which are generally on youtube already. More how-to videos or commented content would be great, as it would provide context for the things that are happening (personally I don't really care for speed runs unless they're either commented on or of games I already know). But it's more of a Strategy Forum thing than a High Score Forum thing.

A central database is great because it allows you to play with the data - I expect most people who use RS do so to keep a record of their scores, rather than for competitive purposes. The sheer volume of content means that competition is usually non-existent - when someone takes the crown, there's usually not someone who wants to take it away from them immediately (who also has the necessary skills). And by the time someone does, the first record holder has moved on to something else. Thanks to emulation, Steam prices and general piracy there are hundreds of games to choose from so unless you discover something that obsesses you, most people are going to move on once they get the first achievement that makes them happy. I imagine chasing 1CCs is more popular than scoring, and that would be the reason.

On point 3, I agree completely that we want to encourage everyone to post everything and it was one of the things I had in mind when building RS. No work for other people, so why note submit everything? I've been a bit annoyed at myself that the answer is vanity - I don't submit scores for most games unless I play them for several days because I don't want to have an ocean of halfassed scores.

Anyway - I haven't read the google doc yet, but thought I'd throw out of a few comments while I was still conscious tonight. Scoring is what makes STGs interesting to me, but I admit I tend to prefer to watch other people put in the hard work and just marvel at the videos while I scum clears. Oh well.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

Keade wrote:
Mark_MSX wrote: Video needs to be strongly encouraged. Obviously there are some barriers depending on people’s setups and stuff, but the year is 2018, we can make this happen. There will be scores without video, but we should aim for the majority of scores having video. Also, the video doesn't have to be direct capture, people can do off-the-screen capture too.
Please explain how you are going to "encourage" it.
Unless it is a requirement, like input recordings are at MARP (I know that site is ugly, but still, I'm sad it wasn't mentionned alongside the others in this thread :oops: ), I think this is never going to "work".
I have always been a vocal advocate of such recordings, and it seems to me that most people don't care, or can't (because they play on original hardware for instance...ok that does not mean "can't", but that is much more complicated and expensive to set up).
As far as encouraging video goes, the source of encouragement could be as simple as a short little message during the submission process. The message read something like "Please, if possible, include a video link along with your score. Video helps improve the shmup community's visibility to new people, as well as shows your approach to the game and playstyle. Video is not required, however."

In terms of making this work, I don't think this change has to happen overnight or anything. These can be goals we gradually work towards.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

CStarFlare wrote:A central database is great because it allows you to play with the data - I expect most people who use RS do so to keep a record of their scores, rather than for competitive purposes. The sheer volume of content means that competition is usually non-existent - when someone takes the crown, there's usually not someone who wants to take it away from them immediately (who also has the necessary skills). And by the time someone does, the first record holder has moved on to something else. Thanks to emulation, Steam prices and general piracy there are hundreds of games to choose from so unless you discover something that obsesses you, most people are going to move on once they get the first achievement that makes them happy. I imagine chasing 1CCs is more popular than scoring, and that would be the reason.
You are completely right about this. And I agree that only a small minority of players are going to have the skills to trade top scores back and forth with each other. However, the nice thing about having a unified database, more recorded scores, and video available, is that it allows average players to form rivalries with each other (friendly or not), like we used to do in the arcades. We aren't competing for the top score, but with the players just above us on the scoreboard. If the only scores posted are from expert players, then average players will just prefer to get a clear and move on to the next game (as I find myself doing, along with everyone else).
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Jeneki »

I've kept my stuff on Restart Syndrome lately. I like that site, as it has only what it needs with no extra fluff. I'd love it if it hosted non-shmup arcade stuff as well.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by CStarFlare »

You are completely right about this. And I agree that only a small minority of players are going to have the skills to trade top scores back and forth with each other. However, the nice thing about having a unified database, more recorded scores, and video available, is that it allows average players to form rivalries with each other (friendly or not), like we used to do in the arcades. We aren't competing for the top score, but with the players just above us on the scoreboard. If the only scores posted are from expert players, then average players will just prefer to get a clear and move on to the next game (as I find myself doing, along with everyone else).
Speaking as an average player, I almost always move on as well. There's just too much out there on my to-do list, in the same way I hardly ever reread a book - I've got a dozen on my shelf and another dozen on my to-buy list. We're spoiled for choice and usually short on time.
One could probably use the same database for non STGs, and add a flag for genre and build a sister site around the others. People who used the site from day one might remember that Elemental Gearbolt was actually up there because I'd been playing it while building the site, but I pulled it because I wanted the site to have a specific focus. It was meant to be the shmups version of sites likes Solid State Squad and be for the benefit of one community.
The main problem with expansion is that RS has 650 games and there's dozens I know I haven't added. Depending on how well I know a game adding one can take anywhere from 3 minutes to 30 minutes trying to track down information on length, ship names, different modes (I spent a silly amount of times downloading PCE CD games just to check what the difficulty options were because there was no youtube videos that showed all of them). In the beginning I was doing things like trying to hunt down clears on the in-game scoreboard to decide if I should list clears as ALL or Clear, but I've become less exacting since then. :roll:

There's a lot of features that RS could have (time attack support, support for games where scores don't exist/aren't shown at the end) which would be useful when expanding the scope. Even if I were to some day consider expanding I would want to do those first. And I'm afraid I haven't done serious work on improving the site for quite a while now - to the point where every time I touch it the site has a learning curve again. :oops:
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zakk
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by zakk »

While I can appreciate all the time you spent writing this out and what not, it's not the first time all this has been proposed.

it is very unlikely you are going to see changes to this forum that would support built in score boards. It has been shot down in every previous attempt at someone proposing it get done. Simply put, running some weird plugins/custom code/hacked phpBB makes updating the forum software too difficult, and it's not really an option to never update.

The best you could get is some external utility that scrapes posts in hi-score topics and auto-updates the scoreboard based on new posts. It'll still require lots of human intervention though, because most people are terrible at following directions and you get tons of posts not in the requested format, or missing information etc.

Honestly, the best move is to just encourage the use of some place like Restart Syndrome. This forum is ill-equipped to handle anything beyond basic high score tracking and that is unlikely to change.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Sumez »

Mark_MSX wrote: My Proposed Solution

First off, I would just like to say that, when it comes to the details, I think we as a community can work together to figure out what works for us the best. This is not my pet project or anything, just a change I think needs to happen (though I am fully invested in helping make the change happen, if that is what is needed).

So, to address the problems I’ve listed above, here is what I think our new score-keeping system needs.

1. It needs to be a unified database. It can continue to be managed by a variety of people, but the data needs to be centralized.
2. Video needs to be strongly encouraged. Obviously there are some barriers depending on people’s setups and stuff, but the year is 2018, we can make this happen. There will be scores without video, but we should aim for the majority of scores having video. Also, the video doesn't have to be direct capture, people can do off-the-screen capture too.
3. We need the scoreboard to feel less personal, and more general. This will encourage a wider range of scores, rather than just a small list of top scores. A healthy spread of scores is good for everyone. It also adds prestige to the top scores.
4. Finally, and most importantly, we need our new method of tracking scores to be connected directly to the forum. As in, a first time visitor opens the site, sees the “hi scores” section, clicks on it, and is immediately directed to the new scoreboard in some fashion or another.

Models we can learn from


.... I was actually working on a system to do exactly this some time ago (a unified scoreboard database for forums and competitions, supporting a wide variety of score formats, and individual categories within games, personal score tracking, etc.).
Eventually we ended up just using it for local competitions in some local communities and groups of friends :)

I don't know if it's useful for what you are proposing, or what people's thoughts are on whether there is actually an issue here (I actually agree with a lot of the points here against the proposal), but I wouldn't mind taking the task back up and continuing my work.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by CloudyMusic »

CStarFlare wrote:I'm not sure I care so much about videos. There's a lot of generally worthless videos online and even scores that people are proud of don't actually get watched unless you're literally Jaimers-tier. People looking for demonstrations would be better served watching demo-specific videos (ideally those edited and commented on to break down what is happening and why as well as how to do it) or just rewatching WR videos. Digging through videos of moderately OK scores for insights is going to be a waste of time unless you just want to watch the game be played - and one only needs one of those which are generally on youtube already.
I don't necessarily agree with this; I actually think there's historically been a critical shortage of intermediate-level replays out there. It's perhaps not as much the case these days, especially due to the advent of livestreaming, but I think it's really valuable for footage below superplay-tier to be available. It depends on the game, obviously, but generally I'd say it's a bad idea for new players to go for superplay-level strats right out of the gate, assuming they can even decipher what's happening in the superplay video in the first place. My Garegga replay, for example, shows an approachable way to get an intermediate-level score without many dangerous tricks or complicated execution, and I think that kind of thing can be really valuable. Likewise, replays in chaining games that show easier-to-accomplish-but-not-completely-optimal chaining routes are also the kind of thing I think are very useful to demonstrate.

You're right that there are a lot of worthless videos out there from a strategic perspective (especially TAS "longplays"), but there's no real way to control that, we just need to put the actually useful resources out there so that people can find them if they're looking.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by mrmccormo »

Keres wrote:I don't necessarily agree with this; I actually think there's historically been a critical shortage of intermediate-level replays out there. It's perhaps not as much the case these days, especially due to the advent of livestreaming, but I think it's really valuable for footage below superplay-tier to be available. It depends on the game, obviously, but generally I'd say it's a bad idea for new players to go for superplay-level strats right out of the gate, assuming they can even decipher what's happening in the superplay video in the first place. My Garegga replay, for example, shows an approachable way to get an intermediate-level score without many dangerous tricks or complicated execution, and I think that kind of thing can be really valuable. Likewise, replays in chaining games that show easier-to-accomplish-but-not-completely-optimal chaining routes are also the kind of thing I think are very useful to demonstrate.

You're right that there are a lot of worthless videos out there from a strategic perspective (especially TAS "longplays"), but there's no real way to control that, we just need to put the actually useful resources out there so that people can find them if they're looking.
Agree with you on this one. I've had to piece together my own bridge between "just starting out" and the high-level superplays available online. Video runthroughs specifically tailored to newbies would be valuable. A Youtube video of a basic route (explaining survival techniques and a general layout of safe areas of the stage) would be easy enough to learn from but that sort of material isn't readily available. Booting up a random Let's Play isn't ideal either because you're not building a foundation upon which you can learn scoring, chaining, etc (depending on the game). Skilled players need to "break down" these games in finer detail for the masses.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

zakk wrote:While I can appreciate all the time you spent writing this out and what not, it's not the first time all this has been proposed.

it is very unlikely you are going to see changes to this forum that would support built in score boards. It has been shot down in every previous attempt at someone proposing it get done. Simply put, running some weird plugins/custom code/hacked phpBB makes updating the forum software too difficult, and it's not really an option to never update.

The best you could get is some external utility that scrapes posts in hi-score topics and auto-updates the scoreboard based on new posts. It'll still require lots of human intervention though, because most people are terrible at following directions and you get tons of posts not in the requested format, or missing information etc.

Honestly, the best move is to just encourage the use of some place like Restart Syndrome. This forum is ill-equipped to handle anything beyond basic high score tracking and that is unlikely to change.
Thanks for the response man. This sounds like the general consensus everyone is coming to. I have no problem using RS or hiscores.shmup.com. But the problem with these sites is that they are unknown to most new players and people coming into the community. Maybe we should all now start to talk about ideas for getting more exposure for these sites? Maybe a thread at the top of the highscores page about them?
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

Keres wrote:
CStarFlare wrote:I'm not sure I care so much about videos. There's a lot of generally worthless videos online and even scores that people are proud of don't actually get watched unless you're literally Jaimers-tier. People looking for demonstrations would be better served watching demo-specific videos (ideally those edited and commented on to break down what is happening and why as well as how to do it) or just rewatching WR videos. Digging through videos of moderately OK scores for insights is going to be a waste of time unless you just want to watch the game be played - and one only needs one of those which are generally on youtube already.
I don't necessarily agree with this; I actually think there's historically been a critical shortage of intermediate-level replays out there. It's perhaps not as much the case these days, especially due to the advent of livestreaming, but I think it's really valuable for footage below superplay-tier to be available. It depends on the game, obviously, but generally I'd say it's a bad idea for new players to go for superplay-level strats right out of the gate, assuming they can even decipher what's happening in the superplay video in the first place. My Garegga replay, for example, shows an approachable way to get an intermediate-level score without many dangerous tricks or complicated execution, and I think that kind of thing can be really valuable. Likewise, replays in chaining games that show easier-to-accomplish-but-not-completely-optimal chaining routes are also the kind of thing I think are very useful to demonstrate.

You're right that there are a lot of worthless videos out there from a strategic perspective (especially TAS "longplays"), but there's no real way to control that, we just need to put the actually useful resources out there so that people can find them if they're looking.
You're exactly right man. I've actually been watching your replay to figure out how I am going to plan my clear for Garegga. As awesome as the special demonstrations of high level play are, there is still a place for videos that show more achievable strategies for new and intermediate players.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Despatche »

You have no idea how much I've wanted this exact thing for years now. However, the OP is not the person who needs to be communicating this. I intended to break the post down, but quickly realized that it was all saying the same thing from the same wrong angle.

Far too many of the "problems" you speak of are cultural issues that are never going to be fixed until people realize they are, in fact, cultural issues. For whatever reason, the West collectively decided to give up on playing arcade games seriously around the mid-'80s, likely due to things such as the NES, and very few have really bothered to look back. Street Fighter II "saved" arcades for a while, but all it really did was drown every other arcade genre and kill the vast majority of them. Japan doesn't have this problem because they have never had this problem. They just... haven't. Even when things were looking kinda grim in the late-'80s, they never got as grim as Western arcades have been for the past three decades. This problem exists because very few people in the West respect arcades and their purpose, and the kinds of games that were created from them. All we have left are a bunch of old men and a bunch of crazy kids. Neither of these groups have any idea what they're doing, and it's easily arguable that they mostly don't really have fun with these games.

There's also a hint of prioritization of information mediums going on in this post, and that should never be respected under any circumstances. Throughout history, so much information has been lost because of prioritizing a "new" medium or a personal favorite medium.

There are other problems, and the rest of the thread has done a good job of pointing those out. Shmup.com is by and large good, because Europe has always cared more about these games than America ever did. I actually wanted to learn French at one point, because of Shmup.com.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by BryanM »

I personally don't think it's a bad thing this place is just a clubhouse for old men to chill out at. It never aspired to be a database to begin with, and there are better places for that. It's a bit odd to expect anyone to want to post their scores for games they're not trying their best at. Hundreds of us have played Ketsui, but I don't want my pathetic number clogging up the board. Not just because I can't loop the thing or whatever - but because I've never made a serious effort to master the game. There's no trophy or reward at the end of the rainbow, besides sitting in the dark and satisfactorily sternly nodding my head, once.

Honestly if you want to revitalize this dead genre, effort might be better served developing that mythical hit viral SHMUP game that millions of people get hooked to.

... just add tits and gacha mechanics and make it only playable on a cell phone aaaaaand I already want to die.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Keade »

BryanM wrote:I don't want my pathetic number clogging up the board. Not just because I can't loop the thing or whatever - but because I've never made a serious effort to master the game. There's no trophy or reward at the end of the rainbow, besides sitting in the dark and satisfactorily sternly nodding my head, once.
This is an egg and chicken problem, ihmo.
The fewer scores there are, the less likely people are to submit average or low scores, and the less activity there is going to be overall.
Not to say this is the main reason there isn't much activity (here or anywhere else), of course, probably just one of many.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Despatche »

I don't really believe in this "encouragement" stuff. Cool tutorial videos, which is what we really need, are gonna go a much longer way than people making submissions that they don't really want to make.

Some games are just naturally popular and get lots of submissions. There might be some kind of feedback loop there, but it has to be really minor. The killing of forums as a form of communication is a much bigger problem than this.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Mark_MSX »

Despatche wrote:I don't really believe in this "encouragement" stuff. Cool tutorial videos, which is what we really need, are gonna go a much longer way than people making submissions that they don't really want to make.

Some games are just naturally popular and get lots of submissions. There might be some kind of feedback loop there, but it has to be really minor. The killing of forums as a form of communication is a much bigger problem than this.
I definitely agree about tutorial videos being a great idea. That's actually something I am planning on working on in the near future.

As far as my proposal goes, if you guys aren't interested in updating how we do things on this forum or encouraging people to post their scores, I don't think there is much more I can say to change your mind. I guess what I will say is if you guys are reading this thread and like my ideas, there are close examples I think are great to check out:

http://hiscores.shmup.com/

http://www.restartsyndrome.com/

I appreciate everyone who has responded to this thread. Even though it doesn't sound like many of you guys were keen on my ideas, or feel like making a change won't be possible at this point, I think it is still good to have the discussion. Hopefully I haven't rubbed too many of you the wrong way, this really has been a sincere idea and effort on my part.
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Re: A Proposal for Updating How We Record Scores On the Site

Post by Despatche »

It's not that people aren't interested, it's that you're going about this the wrong way. You assume that people aren't interested and basically blame us for what is clearly a specific problem on your end, and on the end of that other handful who doesn't really play these games and who doesn't understand the context of this entire genre going back decades.

Again, the real problem isn't at all what you're talking about. The only way to fix the real problem is to completely upend how people think about this genre (probably a lot of other things too actually), and no amount of fancy forum footwork is going to go even 1% towards accomplishing this.

You're not even wasting your time. You're asking others to waste their time for you.
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