How important is tate?

[tnc]

Has anyone 1cced any serious shmup with an lcd below 23 inches with no tate? I'm trying to understand if it would make a big difference to have a bigger screen or if it is possible for some/many to clear a shmup with such a setup. Thank you.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I've 1cc'd shmups on a laptop screen with no tate so I'd say it's not that important. As long as you can see what's going on that's all that matters.

If you can tate somehow though, give it a try. You'll definitely appreciate the extra space.

[Bananamatic]

tate=better is a gigantic meme because of arcades that need big screens to attract people
the bigger the screen, the more effort it takes to see everything and to look at other parts of the screen
tate only helps with super dense patterns like tlb larsa's purple spam

[Eaglet]

Once again banana demonstrates a complement lack of understanding and knowledge.
95% of STG are designed for 29 inch monitor. They are best played this way. End of story.
You have a different opinion? Well, you're wrong.

[tnc]

So it's better to have a 29 inch screen but it's ok to have a smaller one I guess. So I should keep playing and not blame it on the monitor. Thanks guys!

[Lyv]

I've 1cc'd shmups on a laptop screen with no tate so I'd say it's not that important. As long as you can see what's going on that's all that matters.

This.
Screen size probably won't make a big difference, much less than proper knowledge of the game you're playing.

In my experience, the only drawback of playing on a small screen is that I suck when I get to play on cabs. Not a big deal though. And only relevant for arcade games.

[donluca]

Ideally, you want the playing field nicely centered and in focus of your sight.

Saying a 29" is needed isn't correct or wrong either. It depends how close you are to the screen.

Playing a vertical game on a horizontal monitor is akin to play a 4:3 game on a 16:9 screen: you're wasting a part of your screen estate although this could be alright if the monitor is big enough in relation to the distance you're looking at it from.

Although, I always prefer to stay pretty close to the screen to play shmups, which means that even a small screen will do for me.

[Kollision]

well, in my opinion once you go TATE you never go back
things just feel more... natural

that said, I have beaten a handful of verts with no TATE whatsoever, so as P/A stated in the end it all comes down to visibility I guess

[Bananamatic]

95% of STG are designed for 29 inch monitor. They are best played this way. End of story.

tell me how seeing less of the screen at once with more detail helps in games with fast bullets and a ton of snipers aside from jacking off to the pixel art
they weren't designed for shit aside from getting you to leave the cab as soon as possible while making you put in more credits at the same time

you could argue that 29 inch tate wasn't designed for humans in the first place because we have eyes on the left and right, not up and down and barely anyone uses a wide lcd monitor for gaming that's that big, let alone when tated and sitting up close

if it is possible for some/many to clear a shmup with such a setup. Thank you.

how the hell is this even a question? if it was impossible then why would there even be switch or mobile shmups?

[LordHypnos]

Will it make a difference compared to actually knowing what the hell you're doing? Not really. However, in my experience it's very difficult to actually play a vertical game on a horizontal 14" monitor, and I perform much worse (probably not a big deal if you're dealing with much larger screens, though). 29" is nonsense though. You probably couldn't even see the whole screen at that size. I have a 17" 4:3 screen, and that feels like more than enough. Of course size isn't everything and your proximity to the screen will also make a difference. Basically you want to be able to see the whole screen and not a lot else. One of the flaws of all vertical games is actually that you don't naturally see in a vertical 4:3 rectangle so you're always going to have a lot of empty space on the sides if you're far enough back to actually see the whole screen. This is part of why vertizontals are inherently superior to verts.

[Bananamatic]

so you're always going to have a lot of empty space on the sides

having the screen surrounded by empty black space on the left and right is good though, makes it easier to see the playing field due to contrast
21"-24" horizontal is perfect if sitting up close

[tnc]

if it is possible for some/many to clear a shmup with such a setup. Thank you.

how the hell is this even a question? if it was impossible then why would there even be switch or mobile shmups?

Hmmm... If the shmup is specifically designed for switch or mobile, sure. But I don't know how you could play Ketsui or Battle Garegga on them to be honest.

[Eaglet]

The answer should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
Of course the right monitor is not necessary but the optimal alternative.
Autistic banana is just being like he always is. Ignore.

[Bananamatic]

easily?
switch is getting arcade ports and no one is reporting they're impossible to play
don't forget that your eyes are even closer to the screen on handhelds
there was a guy who played and beat futari ultra on a 13" crt with composite cables and he never tated it or even resized the screen

The answer should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
Of course the right monitor is not necessary but the optimal alternative.
Autistic banana is just being like he always is. Ignore.

maybe optimal for the business to attract customers which is what their #1 goal is
next you're going to claim you need a neon sign above the screen and the control panel at midget height because that's how the arcade cab was designed
this is why we have new people coming in asking weird shit like "do I need a stupidly oversized screen to even beat this game"

[Xyga]

Has anyone 1cced any serious shmup with an lcd below 23 inches with no tate? I'm trying to understand if it would make a big difference to have a bigger screen or if it is possible for some/many to clear a shmup with such a setup. Thank you.

IMHO there is no definitive answer, and the display's orientation is not as important as the viewed size, what's really important is to play within a certain 'sweet spot' area where the kind of game, type of display, and player's eyesight all matter.
Of course bullets/sprites-busy vertical shmups require a certain size for most people, there's quite a lot of dodging tiny things after all, but I've long realized those who have perfect sight or correction don't realize how problematic playing with a small screen area can be for those who don't.
Then the comfort area varies with displays, most LCDs don't offer the same smooth motion CRTs do, and depending on their specs+performance some can even be bad for you at close distance; playing with flat panels should always be from a slightly further distance compared to CRT.
Then with low-res CRTs some games can be nearly unplayable if it's big and you sit too close.
Personally with my vision 'specs' I can't play comfortably on anything smaller than approximately 20" and I'm not too comfortable playing on a 29" Japanese cab, so for vertical shmups I use either CRTs of around 21"~25" tated, or LCDs that allow for approximately the same size experience tated or not (a 32" LCD monitor sometimes landscape, sometimes portrait, a 42" LCD TV always in landscape so all verts are played yoko) while sitting further than I do with the CRTs.

In any case all players can tell what configuration feels most comfortable for them without anyone else's intervention.

[tnc]

Has anyone 1cced any serious shmup with an lcd below 23 inches with no tate? I'm trying to understand if it would make a big difference to have a bigger screen or if it is possible for some/many to clear a shmup with such a setup. Thank you.

IMHO there is no definitive answer, and the display's orientation is not as important as the viewed size, what's really important is to play within a certain 'sweet spot' area where the kind of game, type of display, and player's eyesight all matter.
Of course bullets/sprites-busy vertical shmups require a certain size for most people, there's quite a lot of dodging tiny things after all, but I've long realized those who have perfect sight or correction don't realize how problematic playing with a small screen area can be for those who don't.
Then the comfort area varies with displays, most LCDs don't offer the same smooth motion CRTs do, and depending on their specs+performance some can even be bad for you at close distance; playing with flat panels should always be from a slightly further distance compared to CRT.
Then with low-res CRTs some games can be nearly unplayable if it's big and you sit too close.
Personally with my vision 'specs' I can't play comfortably on anything smaller than approximately 20" and I'm not too comfortable playing on a 29" Japanese cab, so for vertical shmups I use either CRTs of around 21"~25" tated, or LCDs that allow for approximately the same size experience tated or not (a 32" LCD monitor sometimes landscape, sometimes portrait, a 42" LCD TV always in landscape so all verts are played yoko) while sitting further than I do with the CRTs.

In any case all players can tell what configuration feels most comfortable for them without anyone else's intervention.

Yeah, I asked the question wrong. It's not about tate but screen size.

I tried my lcd tated and it did feel kinda better. I have to turn it and lean it against the wall everytime but maybe I should. The problem is there is no other monitor I can try on so I was wondering what others' experiences are with monitor sizes.

[LordHypnos]

having the screen surrounded by empty black space on the left and right is good though, makes it easier to see the playing field due to contrast
21"-24" horizontal is perfect if sitting up close

Not specifically denying this (can't say I've experienced it), but my point is that 4:3 horizontal is more natural given the range of human vision. I'd probably guess that 24" yoko would probably be more or less okay, 21" seems kinda small, but I suppose it depends how close you are. High contrast should indeed be a positive thing.

there was a guy who played and beat futari ultra on a 13" crt with composite cables and he never tated it or even resized the screen

to be fair, you were able to clear it much faster than he did. I can't imagine that a tiny pillarboxed 3:4 inside of a 13" monitor would be ideal for anyone. If you are stuck with a 13" monitor, you might want to try rotating it.

In any case all players can tell what configuration feels most comfortable for them without anyone else's intervention.

This is the truth of the matter. Just experiment to see what feels comfortable. There are quite a few variables that feed into it.

Also, vertizontals are the best.

[Bananamatic]

to be fair, you were able to clear it much faster than he did. I can't imagine that a tiny pillarboxed 3:4 inside of a 13" monitor would be ideal for anyone. If you are stuck with a 13" monitor, you might want to try rotating it

small screen+bad quality image+scanlines
13" is still playable but not with all that extra noise

[Xer Xian]

For most ports up to the DC/PS2 gen, tate mode not only lets you play on a larger window but also increases the game resolution to match the arcade/original intent. In some cases (like Arika ports for the PS2) setting tate mode also switches from interlaced to progressive..

[LordHypnos]

small screen+bad quality image+scanlines
13" is still playable but not with all that extra noise

Yeah, I think that would be pretty awful. In defense of scanlines, however, I don't think they're really all that noticeable, at least not on standard consumer monitors. I guess, looking at photos of high end broadcasting monitors, they can be pretty distinctive, but I never noticed them when I used to play games through composite (which blurs the image, btw, which might decrease the prevalence of scanlines, though I don't actually know) on SDTVs. I also don't notice sprite tearing when V-Sync is off, though, so I might just be blind. lol.

My PC monitor shows scanlines in 480p mode (Dreamcast resolution through VGA), but not as far as I can tell on higher resolutions. You have to look really close to actually see it, too. Here's some example photos I took a while back (my apologies for forgetting to resize these): https://imgur.com/a/vqusbFx
image 1: Close up view of scanlines, even up close they aren't very obvious.
image 2: Zoomed out, you can't even tell they're there, any more.
image 3: This one's just to annoy the videophiles (it's a unevenly scaled single pixel checkerboard pattern because the original resolution for Mars Matrix is 384x224, and I'm running it at 640x448, though it's exactly 2x scaled vertically, so the artifacts are only horizontal). Actually, you can kinda see the scanlines better in this one, anyway. I think my camera must've been a little unsteady in that first one.

Not the perfect example, because most people talking about scanlines are talking SDTVs or arcade monitors, and probably aperture grill rather than shadowmask, and also the game is paused, so the screen is darker than it would usually be, which probably affects how much the scanlines show. Also it's a photo, you can definitely see them more in person, but still not really when you're far enough away from the screen.

[mycophobia]

jacking off to the pixel art

fuck off

[mycophobia]

i like it when the games I play look good, personally.

[Weak Boson]

Playing on my horizontal 4:3 PC monitor I don't see much benefit to tate since. As long as you're comfortable with the distance you are from the screen. I agree that candy cabs seem a bit too up close and personal.

But this only applies if the image will be in the best possible resolution even when horizontal.

When I was playing shmups on a CRT tate made a huge difference whatever size TV I was using. Games that looked squashed and sad in yoko mode shone with brilliant clarity and it made everything so much more fun!

[Bananamatic]

In defense of scanlines, however, I don't think they're really all that noticeable, at least not on standard consumer monitors.

it's noticeable with super dense patterns, way easier to see what the hell is going on with a clear hd image than a mess with scanlines on top

[LordHypnos]

In defense of scanlines, however, I don't think they're really all that noticeable, at least not on standard consumer monitors.

it's noticeable with super dense patterns, way easier to see what the hell is going on with a clear hd image than a mess with scanlines on top

Well, like I say, I never noticed an issue with the 480p ones on my monitor, though they aren't exactly the thick scanlines you see in photos of professional SD broadcasting or arcade monitors. You can't even see them unless you're like a couple inches from the screen with your eyes. lol.

[Xyga]

And the bananabullshit goes on. Goes on. Goes on.

[LordHypnos]

And the bananabullshit goes on. Goes on. Goes on.

tbh, while I find it a bit difficult to take someone's biased word on it, and have no way to test it myself, I could see it getting in the way if you were dealing with A. lower screen resolution (e.g. 240p) and B. much thicker scanlines like you see in higher end monitors, and C. denser bullets than Mars Matrix like in a CAVE game, so I can kinda buy it. Especially if it were in yoko mode like in Gus' case. I doubt it causes any problems when using a 480p midrange PC monitor, though I do suck at micrododging, so maybe that's the secret

[Bananamatic]

And the bananabullshit goes on. Goes on. Goes on.

I played some games both on lcd and a big crt and many patterns are easier to read without scanlines (read: futari ultra bullet density, not novice mode, this pattern in particular)
meanwhile I don't even know what the hell you play (maybe not even shmups?) and you call it bullshit
I bet the arcade purist clowns in here would also think having the controls on the left or right side instead of in the middle is how it was "designed" and "optimal"

[mycophobia]

it's optimal to have a big enough display to enjoy the art

[MathU]

I've never owned a television or monitor that can actually be rested on its side, so it's never made a difference for me. It hasn't prevented me yet from beating scores of vertically-oriented games with impressive scores, from bullet hell to manic to more traditional shooters. Might be nice, but it's unnecessary.

I will say that someday I'd love to actually be able to read the radio chatter in Ultimate Shooting Collection that was translated to extremely tiny English text. Maybe I should try emulating it on Dolphin already.