How important is tate?

[Shepardus]

Find a size/distance that you're comfortable looking at. Too small/far and you can't make out anything, too large/close and you can't see anything without shifting your vision around all the time.

Is there really anything more to say about this?

Oh right, there is - play horis or vertizontals and whether to tate won't even be a question.

[Bananamatic]

Oh right, there is - play horis or vertizontals and whether to tate won't even be a question.

reminds me of a certain 16:9 hori where the boss hp gauge is on the right side of the screen but you're on the left and you need to dodge and the hp gauge is too far away to safely look at it so you end up timing the cancel by guessing when the boss is about to die
then you realize how being able to quickly look at different parts of the screen is an advantage (and probably why the seemingly useless smaller boss hp gauges are at the bottom of the screen in mushi and futari - for arcade players who have a harder time looking up?)
the optimal point is probably where you can see everything easily without sacrificing any accuracy or having your eyes hurt from how small everything is

[WMD]

where the boss hp gauge is on the right side of the screen but you're on the left and you need to dodge and the hp gauge is too far away to safely look at it

I was once working on a game where they tried to solve this by moving the boss gauge to a mini-HUD that would move with the player. It went through several iterations, with the full gauge and then only a partial one (to the next phase/cancel). It was quite controversial and was dropped after a test audience disliked it. I still thought it was a good idea. In the end the project was canned (for financial reasons).

[Shepardus]

Oh right, there is - play horis or vertizontals and whether to tate won't even be a question.

reminds me of a certain 16:9 hori where the boss hp gauge is on the right side of the screen but you're on the left and you need to dodge and the hp gauge is too far away to safely look at it so you end up timing the cancel by guessing when the boss is about to die
then you realize how being able to quickly look at different parts of the screen is an advantage (and probably why the seemingly useless smaller boss hp gauges are at the bottom of the screen in mushi and futari - for arcade players who have a harder time looking up?)
the optimal point is probably where you can see everything easily without sacrificing any accuracy or having your eyes hurt from how small everything is

That's also why the boss position indicator in Touhou games is so helpful. Also, when ZUN switched to showing the boss HP as a circle around the boss, I found it harder to check the boss HP at a glance because it's not always in the same place and on top of all the bullets. The hit sound helps regardless though.

[Austin]

It's a matter of personal preference. For smaller displays I would rather TATE as I find it easier to judge where I need to be in relation to the rest of the bullets and patterns on screen.

[scrilla4rella]

Tate'ing my old 20" flatscreen Sony Trinitron Wega made a huge difference for my PS1 and Saturn shmups.

At the time I thought these old-school arcade games on my PS1 (Strikers 1945 II, Raiden Project) and Saturn (Galactic Attack) were fun, if a bit silly. But playing these tate'd for the first time was like being struck by lighting. I was noticing a ton of extra detail and seeing patterns in the bullets for the first time. I feel like my game improved, but more importantly it motivated me to spend more time at them and get better. It also made me hungry to find and play more.

It was good fun, until I found this site and eventually bought Battle Garegga for Saturn.

I've had this weird obsession with these games ever since.

The 32-bit era is still my fav for shooters.

[ardiel]

I like tate but I wouldn't say it's required.

Personally having to scan my eyes around just slightly helps me to notice more. On smaller screens I tend to die to "invisible" bullets because I'm convinced that I'm seeing everything when I'm actually not. This happens less when I'm forced to look around just slightly.

[waiwainl]

Playing in front of a 29" CRT tated in a cab is Very nice.
But playing the same game on a 24" LCD sometimes gives better results.

But personally I like it Tated when possible, just for the total experience.

[teetu]

For most ports up to the DC/PS2 gen, tate mode not only lets you play on a larger window but also increases the game resolution to match the arcade/original intent. In some cases (like Arika ports for the PS2) setting tate mode also switches from interlaced to progressive..

That's the same reason why I used to tate during the crt/480 era- I wanted native resolution and rgb. The games looked superb.

I recently got back into gaming after a long time and realized that with HDTVs/modern monitors there really isn't an advantage to tate from a resolution perspective- it's going to look pretty bad no matter what. Playing horizontally on a 50+ inch hdtv is giving me a much larger playing window than my old 25 inch crt did in tate. Of course many would prefer to tate on a laptop or smaller HDTV for more real estate, but you're still going to be stretching the image no matter what.

[arthurtheboss]

Hello everyone. What is the best option to play Saturn games in TATE mode? Any monitor model that is not very expensive and is optimal for turning it? Thank you!

[DialKnight]

This reminds me of those old apple jacks commercials. The answer is "we just do". Try it if you haven't, otherwise your hooked already. I keep a tube and an LCD in tate neither are larger than 14". I'll flip a larger one for two player sessions. Either way it's a great

[Sumez]

This intense discussion of completely subjective approaches to playing games in this thread is hilarious, I can't believe I missed out on it

it's optimal to have a big enough display to enjoy the art

I appreciate this approach. And although I'd say Eaglet's blatant claims sound a bit unfounded, I can say with certainty, that sitting close to a 29" tated monitor absolutely improved my games in the same way lower input lag or a better joystick would.
You can argue against those just as well. Sure some people prefer other controllers, and the games are perfectly beatable without the optimal setup, but if something provides you with an advantage, and helps you enjoy the game more, go with it, and don't give a shit what other people think. If you prefer no visible scanlines, go for that, it doesn't make difference to me.

(and probably why the seemingly useless smaller boss hp gauges are at the bottom of the screen in mushi and futari - for arcade players who have a harder time looking up?)

Holy shit, I never noticed that. My brain probably picked up on it subconsciously, but I never actively registered it.

[Bananamatic]

that sitting close to a 29" tated monitor absolutely improved my games in the same way lower input lag or a better joystick would.
You can argue against those just as well.

no you can't
there's nothing subjective about playing on a bad controller or adding more lag on purpose

[OmegaFlareX]

Tate'ing my old 20" flatscreen Sony Trinitron Wega made a huge difference for my PS1 and Saturn shmups.

This. Tate was extremely important for console ports during the 32-bit-through-PS2 era. The yoko modes always compromised something in the output, whether it was cutting off the top/bottom to fit, or those atrocious wobble modes. You also had to trust the port devs to make it so shit doesn't fire at you when offscreen. Not everyone did this!

Nowadays with our super-high-res displays I don't think it matters. I will say, however, that my previous monitor (1600x900) needed to be tataid to play the PC version of Raiden 3 as the highest res in yoko mode was a bit too small. See pics:



vs



I have since cleaned up my desk area and acquired a new, clean, keyboard.

[pmp]

with what magic are you holding that up?

[OmegaFlareX]

It was leaning up against the wall at *just* the right angle for the weight to support itself without sliding forward. Not ideal at all for extended use, unless I had something heavy to put in front of it.

I'm not using it right now since I've found that 4:3 tate on that monitor is nearly the same size as a 4:3 yoko on my 24" 1080p, but I bought one of those VESA mounts for it that let you put it in any orientation that you want.

[mrmccormo]

I'm into arcade games in general. I fell in love with Fighters and VS Puzzle games before shmups.

Setting aside the valid arguments like "people have won tournaments with game controllers!" and "Heck, I 2-ALL'd DOJ-WL with a Texas Instrument display, no need for fancy screens, mate!", I feel like tate is just part of the proper experience. I feel the same way about using arcade sticks: certain games just need an arcade stick (shmups included, in my opinion) and while I can always play the game with a controller, I'd prefer a stick. Racing enthusiasts buy racing wheels. Flight sim enthusiasts buy joysticks and throttles. Retro enthusiasts buy the original arcade boards and console cartridges. There's nothing wrong with authentic.

How important is tate to playing and enjoying shmups? Not at all. If you really get down to min-maxing, it's just one factor among many when it comes to playing shmups. But how important is it to the authentic experience? Essential. It's the right way to play a vertical shmup.

[Bananamatic]

and shmup enthusiasts don't play shmups

[charlie chong]

as long as the play area size is the size i like it doesn't matter whether the screen is tated or not.. this is a dumb thread

[mrmccormo]

and shmup enthusiasts don't play shmups

True. Discussing market value, discussing whether or not a home port was "arcade perfect" enough, discussing how to re-cap an arcade board, discussing how to get the best RGB signal to our display...

Playing them is entirely secondary.

[OmegaFlareX]

and shmup enthusiasts don't play shmups

I'll admit that I spend far more time reading/posting about shmups and watching replays/livestreams than actually playing them myself.

this is a dumb thread

you're a dumb thread

[charlie chong]

and shmup enthusiasts don't play shmups

I'll admit that I spend far more time reading/posting about shmups and watching replays/livestreams than actually playing them myself.

this is a dumb thread

you're a dumb thread

ooh we got a tough guy here
when you're brainwaves can actually move fast enough to 1cc a game we can talk

[gameoverDude]

I don't really bother with Tate on PC/PS3/PS4 vertical shmups. My PC is on a 27" 1440p monitor, while the PS3 & 4 are on a 43" 1080p TV. Battle Garegga on Saturn really needs to be Tated, but the PS4/X1 version is fine in Yoko thanks to 1080p allowing a 240 x 320 display to be tripled to 720 x 960.

PS2 Giga Wing Generations really needed it. Since you can't use Tate with it, the picture quality takes a dive (arcade is 480 x 640 while PS2 arcade mode cuts the display down to 360 x 480).