How long did it take before you got good at shmups ?

[ardiel]

Sure, maybe for the first few times you play. After a few hundred or few thousand times it's really not random stuff anymore. Probably wrong stuff if you don't try to improve it, but not random stuff.

if you do random stuff several hundred times, you'll be doing random stuff until the world ends because it's near impossible to come to any conclusion with a billion things you randomly did once without giving it any thought
you need to actively think about what you want to achieve, how to get to the goal, understand what you need to do and why you're doing it and not something else and suddenly even just getting a 1cc becomes infinitely easier to achieve (or possible to achieve in the first place)

it's like playing fighting games with your friends when you were kids, just jumping in at each other and attacking without giving it any thought
you could play for years like that and someone who's been playing for a week would beat you all day just by understanding the basics to playing well and you'll never understand why you're losing unless you think about why it's happening and how to prevent it

Well sure I thought that goes without saying. I'm pretty sure nobody who wants to get better is going to play like that. In the harder games it seems pretty obvious to me that you can't get through it without some serious planning. The patterns will literally not even let you survive if you're in the wrong position at all.

Edit:
Also it's not the same as playing fighting games with your friend. In the case of shumps the game itself is the opponent. You're not allowed to think you're doing well like you are when you're playing a fighter vs. another noob. Mistakes don't go unpunished.

[Bananamatic]

and in an easier game you can 1cc them with a steering wheel
you just have to change your approach to "how do I get past this part with motions that don't require much accuracy and without vertical movement" and start actively looking for solutions

[ardiel]

and in an easier game you can 1cc them with a steering wheel
you just have to change your approach to "how do I get past this part with motions that don't require much accuracy and without vertical movement" and start actively looking for solutions

Easier games you can 1cc by scoring high enough or some times even finding the right weapon. I BS'd my way through DDFK novice just by scoring enough to get a bunch of lives to blow on the laser wheels. Even made it into the 2nd loop. Same with Imperishable Night on easy - scored enough to get enough extra lives to just throw them away to get past parts that I didn't care for.

What knowledge is going to help you on say, Espgaluda's final boss?

[Bananamatic]

What knowledge is going to help you on say, Espgaluda's final boss?

knowing ahead of time where to bomb and kakusei, knowing how to beat the rest of the game safely which gives you more lives to spare and knowing that the final attack is completely static
also that you can shoot your bomb to the side to not heal the boss during the final attack

shmups aren't about dodging rain but about working around human limits
if you're worse at basic mechanics like accurate movement you'll need a more detailed plan (but the hardest games are made so that no one can just get by purely on reaction and basics)
the only time when you theoretically need to "git gud" is when even the easiest approach available is too hard

also, play touhou 8 lunatic or something, just to get exposure to high bullet counts and the need for more accurate movement without needing a plan to stand a chance
touhou is good training wheels in general if you constantly push for higher difficulties

[ardiel]

What knowledge is going to help you on say, Espgaluda's final boss?

knowing ahead of time where to bomb and kakusei, knowing how to beat the rest of the game safely which gives you more lives to spare and knowing that the final attack is completely static
also that you can shoot your bomb to the side to not heal the boss during the final attack

shmups aren't about dodging rain but about working around human limits
if you're worse at basic mechanics like accurate movement you'll need a more detailed plan (but the hardest games are made so that no one can just get by purely on reaction and basics)
the only time when you theoretically need to "git gud" is when even the easiest approach available is too hard

also, play touhou 8 lunatic or something, just to get exposure to high bullet counts and the need for more accurate movement without needing a plan to stand a chance
touhou is good training wheels in general if you constantly push for higher difficulties

That's exactly it for me. Knowing what to do is not the main obstacle that I have. Doing is harder than knowing for me.

I got the TLB of Mushihimesama for example and just couldn't handle it. Even using the trick where you can bomb and then jump into the hole in the middle.

[Bananamatic]

time to practice then
also, most people lose several lives on aki anyways
or maybe you're doing something horribly wrong because if you can get to the final attack you can't be that bad

[ardiel]

time to practice then
also, most people lose several lives on aki anyways
or maybe you're doing something horribly wrong because if you can get to the final attack you can't be that bad

The first half didn't bother me that much but there was some luck involved. There's actually a lot of clear gaps until the end of the patterns at first. It gets crazy at around 1/3 health for me.

Edit:
Also fast but few bullets seems harder than screen filling nonsense, up until the point where the screen is literally full.

[Square_Air]

What knowledge is going to help you on say, Espgaluda's final boss?

the final attack is completely static

If you want to get technical it's not truly static. It's 2 opposite static patterns that are decided based on your position on screen like a Strikers boss.

[unsane]

I find it very hard to keep playing a game over months and months

In fact, this is the one and only skill that makes you get better at shmups: persistence. If you cannot stick to a game, I cannot see you getting anywhere with anything skillwise in shmups, other than some adlib reaction skills, which are admittedly not very important in this genre (but nonetheless might turn out to be helpful sometimes).

If i'm reading this right, shmups are all effectively memorizers? I thought that was mainly horizontals. I chose the wrong hobby!

[Shepardus]

Some have more or less emphasis on execution quality, but all of them are going to involve memorization, at least as you try to get better at them. Unless it's just totally random throughout.

[Nameschonvergeben]

Don't take Plasmo too seriously on this, persistence is certainly required to become good and without it you probably wont get too far even if you have good base ability, but it's not the only skill that matters at all.
There are a lot of differences between people in terms of how quickly they learn and also in terms of what their skill ceiling is. That being said, you won't be able to tell what you ceiling is based on just a hundred hours or so, so don't give up early, thinking you're just not talented enough. Also don't think you can do anything if you just persist and go insane like gus though.

[Plasmo]

Don't take Plasmo too seriously on this, persistence is certainly required to become good and without it you probably wont get too far even if you have good base ability, but it's not the only skill that matters at all.

Indeed, I was kinda oversimplifying it by saying that it's the only skill required. The reason why I did that, is to underline just how important it is and I think we can agree on this. Your whole progress is dependent on it.

Also don't think you can do anything if you just persist and go insane like gus though.

But didn't he win in the end?

[Stevens]

Don't take Plasmo too seriously on this, persistence is certainly required to become good and without it you probably wont get too far even if you have good base ability, but it's not the only skill that matters at all.
There are a lot of differences between people in terms of how quickly they learn and also in terms of what their skill ceiling is. That being said, you won't be able to tell what you ceiling is based on just a hundred hours or so, so don't give up early, thinking you're just not talented enough.

This is beyond true.

I am far far far from the best player, what I am is persistent as fuck. It took me four years and 400 hours to ALL Under Defeat. 400 hours to clear a game that is about 50 minutes for two loops.

Still haven't hit my ceiling in that game either.

Natural talent imo is a small % of the equation.

[Nameschonvergeben]

But didn't he win in the end?

He has a cute asian gf, so I guess he did, though I'd argue that going insane over shmups is not the best way to achieve that.
Just in case you're talking about shmups, he poured his life into a counterstop that Banana got with relative ease and then got a wr in a game nobody plays without meeting his final goal. He achieved impressive runs, but he wasn't able to do everything.

[Bananamatic]

Also don't think you can do anything if you just persist and go insane like gus though.

But didn't he win in the end?

if a counterstop clear in futari ultra makes you feel like sisyphus then you're never going to make it
I'm fairly sure if many players here stuck to their games for the same amount of time gus did they'd be in the WR zone

[agyx-groovy]

if a counterstop clear in futari ultra makes you feel like sisyphus then you're never going to make it

Well the whole point of sisyphus is the joy in pushing the rock uphill for it's own sake ie the task and not the goal, so if you enjoy the grind you're winning already.

[Axelay]

I feel I can only be good at one shooter at a time.
Gradius V
Layer section
Ikaruga
Radiant silver gun
Strania

I have to play one everyday to be decent and the best I can do is get to the end using all my credits.
I think gradius v is the exception because the shield really helps.

And watching the replays of a really good ikaruga player helps me get through stages.

I love the hobby 24 years in and I have so much to learn

[TodayIsForgotten]

Interesting topic. I don't remember ever being good at shoot'em ups. I also don't ever remember being bad at them. If i like a game i will put in the time. Plasmo mentioned persistence. I will stick to games if i have goals in mind all day. Literally. I will spend hours and hours trying to accomplish something. It becomes the only thing I am interested in. This also applies to real life. Blessing and a curse kind of deal.

I don't like watching super plays or how people tackle shooters because then i become a carbon copy of someone else and its quite boring copying what someone else does to get good. On games where there is a lot going on i will just bow out or 1cc the game and go for my own personal best.

I know if i really wanted to I could waste days and weeks and months going for top 3 scores in games but honestly, sometimes it's just not worth it and makes no less better than someone else. It's just persistence.

I don't know if i am good but i have the potential to be great as many games come easy to me and with practice they become "easy." It's just i watch myself do the same mistakes over and over again. Even as something goes on I'm telling myself don't do ...fuck. And with this persistence probably kills motivation to play the game to a higher level.

It's very hard for me to stay with a game plan which leads to my death. I also hate bombing and missing points on the field which then alter my game play. All while keeping things simple would make my life a whole lot easier.

[Doctor Butler]

I still haven't.

[Mark_MSX]

Just curious, i can't say myself because im not godd yet .
Im sure im getting better.
Btw I love this forum, the community is great.

Like yourself, I am a bit of a new comer to playing shmups (having started to concentrate on them two years ago). And, like yourself, I have wondered this same question. When it comes to defining being "good," I agree with everyone on this thread that we all can give our own definitions of what that means.

Personally speaking then, when I decided what good meant to me, my operating definition of "good" is a player who is able to achieve a 1 all in most of the milder cave games. To me, this is a "good" player. I'm sure to some people this outlook on being "good" is setting the bar too low, but, to the general shmup playing audience (those who aren't particularly invested in the genre), a 1 All in DOJ might as well be a trip to the moon.

So, applying this definition to myself, it took me two years of studied play to go from being new to the genre, to being "good" by my own standards. In my eyes though, the more interesting question is how long does it take to become an excellent player or a straight up shmup playing machine (like Fufufu).

Anyway, I'm usually not one for long posts, but I found the question interesting.

Peace!

[Plasmo]

Personally I don't care that much about "getting good", but rather enjoy to focus on "getting better". It's also much easier to define and you can notice small steps of progress more easily.

In my eyes though, the more interesting question is how long does it take to become an excellent player or a straight up shmup playing machine (like Fufufu).

Do not switch games and focus on one only. Play it for several years exclusively. Clever use of all practice tools available. Good balance of full runs, practice and theory, depending on which phase of your journey you are in (e.g. full runs in the very beginning make little sense). Grind it out and show will to power. Playing in an arcade environment also helps.

[Goompaolo9500]

It took a few years for me, reaching up to Stage 4 in some shmups but Crimzon Clover is no exception.

[Blinge]

it's like claiming that weed expands the mind, except every pothead you happen to know is a pathetic druggie

lmao this is so true. For every Rogan podcast I hear about how amazing weed is, the only people I know IRL who smoke it are goons.
Not like ME sat in my basement addicted to videogames, that's a good wholesome waste of your life.

That being said, you won't be able to tell what you ceiling is based on just a hundred hours or so, so don't give up early, thinking you're just not talented enough.

My friend did this with 50hrs and it breaks my heart.

Honestly if you need a video game to teach you about practice and discipline and whatnot, then I'm fine with you making video game playing your life's ambition because you're probably not getting far in other things anyway.

This is an unusually judgemental statement from you, Shep. What if someone had no instinct or practice ethics instilled in them growing up? At least no sensible, functional way other than "do good at school because school." Asking for a friend..

I see no reason why you can't apply, loosely or otherwise, the practical framework for getting good at a shmup to other areas in life. Learning a musical instrument is the first thing that comes to mind.

As for shmups? Man, it feels like I'm getting worse.
My embellished personal history is that I exploded onto the scene and quickly racked up decent clears, then plateau'd and now shit.
The greatest victory may have been the first one - starting with 0 shmups experience and 1-ALLing Progear with a dualshock 2 using the analog after 3-4 months.
I never really found that game where I wanted to say 'baby let's take it to the next level.' Other than an intense summer romance with Ikaruga in 2015. To be fair having a job and a girlfriend left me with precious little time to shmup, but this is a tired excuse.

I'll tell you what giving up feels like. It's not "I can't take this any more I'm done."
It's rather the goal itself loses all of its appeal, the pervading thought being "what's the point."
That's a real killer, man.