eschatos is trash compared to JSS

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Bananamatic
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eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Bananamatic »

change my mind

eschatos:
boring as hell earlygame that drags on for too long
options take way too long to unlock, forcing you to go through the earlygame over and over just to get rammed 3 times in stage 3 by the huge battleship with weird hitboxes while you're trying to not throw up from the camera spinning everywhere
awful camera angles that ruin everything leading to too many patterns meant to be shielded
not enough bullets, too many enemies trying to ram you

meanwhile judgement silversword has a quick earlygame with the engaging parts being longer (especially the end boss fights), good balance of dying from bullets and collisions, no perspective camera bullshit and way less cheap kills
plus a cool boss rush with new bosses instead of some alternate modes no one seems to play

the only unfortunate part is the shot glitch (and the fact that it was stuck on a shit console for way too long and then stuck on an expensive release of a crap game as a bonus)
thank god for steam and pc gaming
pc always wins
Last edited by Bananamatic on Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Plasmo »

While I think that this is an interesting topic, "change my mind" is a kinda strange attitude to begin with when we are merely talking about our subjective opinions and our favourite games here.

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As for myself, I prefer Eschatos. Please don't change my mind (hint: you will fail and there's no point in it). Judgement Silversword is also an amazing title though.

What I particularly like about Eschatos is the setting of an alien invasion and the whole atmosphere of slowly making your way through the enemies' attack waves, ultimately reaching the rainbow face of death. Honestly, that last boss alone makes it worth playing Eschatos. :D This sorta outworldish appeal also manifests itself in the spinning cones or the heart midboss. It's as surreal, as it is fascinating. I also really enjoy the seamless transitions between stages, making you feel like being part of a story. JS also has this, but on a much smaller scale. Eschatos is generally very fast-paced (further enforced by the score system) and after some time, I even began to like the weird angles (which admittedly put me off at first).

It's not that Judgement Silversword is not also a very good game, it's just that Eschatos feels even better for me.

Also, where's the Ginga Force love at?
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KAI
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by KAI »

I'm with you banana.
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M.Knight
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by M.Knight »

Probably talked about that in another thread already, but yeah, I agree.

Eschatos has beautiful atmosphere, setting, music and it conveys a very engaging sense of adventure (as Plasmo explained it). JSS's atmopshere is nice and all, but Eschatos is clearly superior on that front.

However, Eschatos' scoring mechanics punish you a lot for missing a single enemy, with too many of them doing what they can to avoid your gunfire. The 3D camera angles are frustrating but barely passable on Normal; however on Hard onwards they are godawful and a source of tons of cheap deaths. Stage 3 in particular becomes such an unfair chore, but I am sure it is not the only part of the game hit by that questionable design decision. The Wonderwitches are a nice caravan influence but their execution is deeply flawed : as soon as you uncover them you have to do some weirdass dancing movements to get them before they run away, which leads to yet another bunch of deaths. I also believe some of them are located at random locations but don't quote me on that.

A thing I don't like about both Eschatos and JSS is the shield system. The fact that absorbed bullets can push you aside is pretty infuriating as it feels like the game is taking control away from me, in the same way intertia does. JSS is even worse than Eschatos in that regard because none of its bullets are instantly cancelled, unlike in Eschatos where only the bigger ones have this "feature".
Milestone shield > M-KAI shield

Still, I would recommend trying out JSS but also Eschatos as I can't deny having had fun 1CCing Eschatos' Normal difficulty. Scoring and higher difficulties are where most of the problems are noticeable IMO.
Plasmo wrote: Also, where's the Ginga Force love at?
I would love to have things to say about Ginga Force, but it's not on PC (yet?) so I can only comment about its very pleasant soundtrack.


EDIT : Oh, I forgot about the F items : their movement pattern is so "F"ucking annoying. They are useful but at the same time, their implementation is kind of an admission that enemies are trying to run away on purpose.
On a side note, you have to dodge them in Advanced mode. Fun times ahead for scorers.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Chaos Phoenixma »

Don't forget a lot RNG enemy positions in a game where missing enemies is a huge hit to score in addition to that. JSS does this too, but that's more about speedkilling due to the area bonuses, and with the double shot thing is reasonable to do pretty consistently regardless. Doesn't help that the higher difficulties also throw in a lot more revenge bullets and other stuff too(which yes JSS does have some as well, but not as much)


One thing I'll complain about in JSS is the "No Shield" thing. I liked the idea of using the shield against a lot of bullets in order to get multiplier up for a bit then trying to cash in on it for a bit. Which is still generally the case in Hard Mode since you're probably not maintaining No Miss No Shield for long enough to be profitable there. It's actually your shield must not ever come into contact with bullets, it coming into contact with enemies is perfectly fine. For the easier modes with no multiplier, you still want to use the shield as much as possible while maintaining speedkilling since it'll let you get a little more points from absorbing the bullets and chip damage on enemies.


I never liked the whole camera thing in Eschatos either.

The reason I originally got Eschatos on the 360 in the first place was purely for JSS, though CS and Eschatos were nice bonus. The only reason I got Eschatos on Steam was cause I won it as a prize option in the scoring contests they did for the 2 games that came with the Steam version of JSS. (Yeah, I actually wanted to buy JSS again to have it on Steam, but I would never have actually bought Eschatos on Steam)
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Shepardus »

The main thing I like about Eschatos is the soundtrack. Can't compare to JSS since I've barely played that and never listethough.
M.Knight wrote:A thing I don't like about both Eschatos and JSS is the shield system. The fact that absorbed bullets can push you aside is pretty infuriating as it feels like the game is taking control away from me, in the same way intertia does. JSS is even worse than Eschatos in that regard because none of its bullets are instantly cancelled, unlike in Eschatos where only the bigger ones have this "feature".
Milestone shield > M-KAI shield
Yeah I never liked the shield either. The fact that the shield takes time to absorb the bullets makes it feel very slippery and finicky to me and I never feel confident using it, like it could betray me at any moment and send me crashing into a bullet I was sure I could absorb.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Nice 4chan thread

I prefer Eschatos, though I admit there are some advantages JSS has over it.

My first and biggest reason for preferring Eschatos is that I feel that the patterns, dodging, enemy waves, scoring system, and big picture pacing and gameflow are all vastly superior to JSS.

JSS has very fun patterns and enemy waves that demonstrate M-Kai's unique style, but there are also a lot of patterns that feel more "standard", and those are mostly forgettable. I think that the enemy waves and patterns in Eschatos really refine that fun, fast dodging and aggressive playstyle and that it does away with most of the filler.

The pacing is likewise more trimmed and fit: JSS first half is fun but doesn't really get the blood pumping...then it spikes like a motherfucker (after the Double Mirror encounter). Eschatos feels shorter and has a much more satisfying ramp and flow that heats up with much less filler and gets exciting right when it should.



Now...the main drawback is the motherfucking 3d/perspective elements...or more accurately stage 3 to be specific.

If you're playing on normal, they're just a spectacle and not much else. If you're playing on hard (aka arcade difficulty, according to the developers themselves) they are a nauseating exercise in frustration and the worst part of the game. Most are tolerable except the 3rd stage, which has so many depth perception related "fuck you" moments on top of being a massive spike in scoring difficulty that it borderlines on game ruining until you put in the lengthy amount of time to learn it.

JSS does not have any low points that come as close as Eschatos stage 3, though neither does it have a high point anywhere near Eschatos stage 4, which completely makes up for the above.
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Bananamatic
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Bananamatic »

Squire Grooktook wrote: The pacing is likewise more trimmed and fit: JSS first half is fun but doesn't really get the blood pumping...then it spikes like a motherfucker. Eschatos feels shorter and has a much more satisfying ramp and flow that heats up with much less filler and gets exciting right when it should.
stage 1 in eschatos takes almost 4 minutes (just to kill the boring ayy lmao mothership thing), over 7 minutes just to get to the shit st3 part
JSS gets to the mirror shield in 8 minutes, which is where the fun starts and quickly goes up with the last third of the game being just final bosses
I'd argue JSS doesn't have filler at all, just the bare minimum to entertain you before the difficulty goes way up between the 2 mirror shield fights

eschatos scoring is also boring as heck, just having to kill everything for +1 multiplier
compare it to ramming the shield up the enemy's ass in JSS to get a massive multiplier, that's also a way more "aggressive playstyle" than the former
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Bananamatic wrote: stage 1 in eschatos takes almost 4 minutes (just to kill the boring ayy lmao mothership thing), over 7 minutes just to get to the shit st3 part
JSS gets to the mirror shield in 8 minutes, which is where the fun starts and quickly goes up with the last third of the game being just final bosses
Hard/Hardest on Eschatos I feel that even stage 1-2 has plenty of random twitch reactions and chances to either lose a multiplier or lose a life while trying to keep the multiplier up. I like that early game better then JSS's, personally.

JSS early game is fun, but slightly less so and it the "real" game doesn't start until around the second mirror shield encounter.
Bananamatic wrote: I'd argue JSS doesn't have filler at all, just the bare minimum to entertain you before the difficulty goes way up between the 2 mirror shield fights
Oh, it's great, don't get me wrong. But I feel that the overall dodging style is more consistent in Eschatos outside of the 3d stages.
Bananamatic wrote: eschatos scoring is also boring as heck, just having to kill everything for +1 multiplier
compare it to ramming the shield up the enemy's ass in JSS to get a massive multiplier, that's also a way more "aggressive playstyle" than the former
Eh, the proximity bonus is a little more abstract and forced to my tastes, though it's nice.

I like Eschatos's scoring best because it's just pure twitch movement all over the screen to catch random targets. It's more pure and the "goal" is something you'd want to do anyway rather than an abstract/meta commandment that you have to follow. I like it better.

Also the time bonus is still there though so ramming enemies with the shield is still prevalent for optimization. Furthermore, the spread shot is now point-blank only, so you naturally have to stay close in a lot of different situations.
Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

qmish wrote:why not love both.gif
this

I prefer JSS in part because I don't like how both shot buttons trigger the shield (prefer one shot overriding another similar to shot/laser mechanics with a separate shield button altogether) but they're both fun
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by To Far Away Times »

Never played JSS but Eschatos is one of my favorite shmups. Talk about a game with a unique personality and creative flair! It completely surpassed my expectations. I think it got the difficulty just right too, with being a solid challenge but not insanely difficult. Great soundtrack too!
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Special World »

Eschatos is godlike. Two fun scoring systems, one elegant and pure and the other one fussy and slightly bizarre but still imo very satisfying. Really fantastic difficulty ramp for players who aren't amazing at shmups. A sense of each wave being a miniature puzzle without the game beating you over the head with it. A unique mixup of bullet hell and manic style shots. Some sense of having an honest-to-god lineage from classic ship-based/gimmick shmups like R-Type while also playing to the strengths of the evolving medium. Forward-thinking in almost every way, with a great deal of respect for the games that came before it. Simply the best soundtrack of perhaps any shmup ever, and one of very few shmups that seems to have a cinematic arc or story flair in any way.

Judgement Silversword is also quite good. I think Eschatos uses its shield in a better, more natural way. When I play Eschatos I feel as if I am playing with the shield, when I play JSS I feel as if the shield is playing with me. Eschatos's shield is an essential tool in your arsenal rather than a sort of dictatorial requirement. Judgement Silversword is a phenomenal shooter, very simple and meaty and full of bite. Eschatos is a sort of culmination and perfection of the form, in a way that I don't think any other shooter truly aspires to. I feel the weight of Space Invaders, R-Type, Ikaruga, and Judgement Silversword, the weight of an entire genre bearing down on it, and it breaks free of their gravitation, toward the light of the moon.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by qmish »

JS has that awesome pacing, rhythm, dynamics, whatever you call it.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by trap15 »

Bananamatic wrote:eschatos scoring is also boring as heck, just having to kill everything for +1 multiplier
compare it to ramming the shield up the enemy's ass in JSS to get a massive multiplier, that's also a way more "aggressive playstyle" than the former
Sorry to ruin JSS for you, but the same system is in JSS. The multiplier base builds over time, and if your shield touches anything it resets the base to x1. So you can never use the shield or your score is toast.

Anyways, I also prefer JSS, but Eschatos is good.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

trap15 wrote:So you can never use the shield or your score is toast.
Yeah, ideally you go as long as possible without EVER using the shield, which, if you can manage it past the dual mirror shield fight, gives you a hefty base multiplier and lots of points.

I wouldn't say using the shield is the end of the world for score as it's possible to use the shield to jack up the multiplier, as well as use it late game without completely ruining your score since you can use it on a key pattern to jump the multiplier up before a kill, but yeah, ideal scoring actually involves going as long as possible without using it since there's a (not very obvious) base multiplier increase if you go as long as possible without shielding.

I think dying also resets the base multiplier?
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Kollision »

Shield touches a bullet or you die = multiplier is reset

Shield touches an enemy = ok
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Special World »

I had... no idea that's how JSS works. So you're saying there's an invisible multiplier in addition to the onscreen multiplier, and it drops if you shield shots?

Or am I just remembering everything completely wrong because I haven't played it in a while? Not being able to use the shield against enemy shots... I really don't like that as an aspect of the scoring system :X
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Special World wrote:I had... no idea that's how JSS works. So you're saying there's an invisible multiplier in addition to the onscreen multiplier, and it drops if you shield shots
No - beating waves without dying or shielding shots directly affects the multiplier, as in the one you can see. As an example, see this run here, where Kollision keeps a whopping x25 base multiplier at the dual mirror shield fight, and only loses it to a death in the wave after: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j02-EH2-Ivo
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Special World »

So what is the utility of the shield in high score play? I'm skimming around and only really see him use it after a boss has begun exploding. Is that actually accomplishing anything?

I.. almost wish I had never heard this, because to me JSS is going from a really elegant, original system to a sort of "this cool tool you have? don't use it."
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

The shield is still integral for finishing off certain later boss attacks for score, and, if you're good at timing the kills, can be used to achieve pretty high multiplier kills even earlier on in the game. Basically, you try to refrain from using the shield as long as possible, but when you do start using it it's still important for scoring.

The whole "no shielding" scoring thing is very high level play and is the sorta thing you'd attempt after you're confident about clearing the game with most of your extra lives in stock (as there's a fairly large bonus for stocked lives at the end of game).

I wouldn't say it's as drastic to the point of being told never to use it - as stated, multiplier does not drop if you hit ONLY enemies with it, so it can still be used early on in some cases to quickly crank the multiplier as a melee attack, and your score isn't complete trash even if you start using it around the middle of the game as, again, extra lives are a huge factor in scoring too (and you can raise the multiplier in the middle of regular waves if you're skillful about shield use, it's just hard to get it to the high potential it can reach near the end of the game if you've gone the whole time without shielding).

Think of it as a risk vs reward high end tactic you can work into your game as you improve. Also, choosing to disregard "no shielding" entirely won't completely screw you over scorewise (compared to Espgaluda 2 where Kakusei Zetsushikai allows you to earn WAY more than just using Kakusei alone).
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Astro City II »

With Natsuki Chronicle [hopefully/finally] releasing this year maybe Eschatos/JSS will be backwards compatible so more people can experience them. I'd love to see that.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Shepardus »

They're already on Steam (and JSS in particular is pretty cheap) so there wouldn't be many more people who would be able to play the games were they to go backwards compatible. It'd just be people who have an Xbox One but not a 360, and don't have a PC (or refuse to use Steam but not the Xbox Marketplace). Ginga Force would be of interest though.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Astro City II »

Yeah there's loads of shmup fans who have no interest in gaming on a PC.
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Shepardus »

And have an Xbox One, and no 360? (And are interested in these games?)
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Re: eschatos is trash compared to JSS

Post by Bananamatic »

Astro City II wrote:Yeah there's loads of shmup fans who have no interest in gaming on a PC.
all 3 of them
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