Editorial on a Gradius V <--> Lifeforce similarities

[landshark]

Not quite sure how you describe the article.

http://www.insertcredit.com/features/options/

[Blue Lander]

I get the distinct feeling the writer has never played Gradius Gaiden. He makes it sound like Gradius V is the first two player Gradius game. Personally, I don't see more similarities between Gradius V and Salamander than there is between any Gradius game and Salamander.

[landshark]

The ability to not restart when you die is a big one in my book. And recovering options. Those to ramped the fun factor up considerably. But I do like Gaiden as well, I just like V more.

[Turrican]

There's also an entire stage, the fourth, based on Salamander more than Gradius.

Not to mention all those Zelos in the beginning.

[whoisKeel]

The article isn't really about which Gradius games he's played (I haven't played Gaiden either). It's about creating a successful sequel to a long standing series that has been trapped within it's own conventions. I mean, let's face it...Gradius 2 and Gradius 3 are pretty similar. He brings up Metroid Prime twice as well to prove his point which was a great example in my opinion. That game captures the Metroid feel while updating the series instead of rehashing it. I like the old Gradius games, but I see his point and I agree with him.

[WarpZone]

It's a great article, and echoes most of my sentiments about the series and Gradius V's significance.

[Turrican]

It's a good written article, but ultimately I disagree with him.

He really sounds like a NES Salamander fan, and all he's saying is "ahh, finally I have respawn!".

He's saying just that, but he uses big words like series rebirth and revolution, how Treasure know the real grasp of Gradius, opposed as Konami, that just makes shallows sequels. >_<

One thing he doesn't mention however, is that Treasure was not so daring to impose the respawn. You have by default, but I know gamers who switch that off without even thinking to it.

I guess it should be nice to say Salamander and Gradius plays differently: he happens to like a gameplay over the other, but this shouldn't be enough a reason to badmouth or despise what he dislikes. Either he didn't play Gofer no Yabou or Gaiden, or he did but felt punished by the different gameplay. That's not a reason to see the series as "decadence" from Salamander to Gradius V... He makes that too easy, you really wonder if he played the games.

About the Prime / Outrun comparison, he's not really making a deep analysis, he just quote those two as recent examples of teams which can get a grasp of "essence" of a series. And I would say at least in the case of Prime, it's debatable how they succeeded.

Edit:

Just to explain myself better, in order to avoid unnecessary arguments.

I do love Gradius V. It was well time to finally get a fresh Gradius, especially after the awful Fukkatsu (how ironic "rebirth"...)

I however don't see things so easy as the author does. Gradius V feels fresh, but that's not entirely Treasure's merit. It's just in the natural order of things. You had a 1991 episode that was the same as Gofer no Yabou (and thus felt slightly inferior*), then a 1999 sequel that was even more a clone of it.
GV does shuffle things, so it feels relatively new (after all 2 players, respawn, were all already seen things). But it does feel new also because the previous ones were rehashing.

But why they were ultimately rehashing Gradius II formula so much? I don't think it's because Konamimen are dumb, as the author seem to suggest;

it's just that Gradius II structure was so excellent that it rocked, and was an instant classic, completely overshadowing the first one. If you notice, all the following games are inspired by Gradius II levels much more than Gradius'

So, with IV the whole thing was getting stale, and it was just natural for talented guys a Treasure to spice up things. Other reviewers noticed the opposite however: that Treasure was extremely cautious approaching Gradius. Gradius is not something you can take lightly. Treasure was extremely smart not to alter the formula too much.

All I want from them now is to capitalize the work they did on GV, and shamelessly release a Salamander III.

*yes, cut it off, that's how I feel about GIII. Don't blame me if you got in touch with the series during the Snes era

[Blue Lander]

It's a good written article, but ultimately I disagree with him.

He really sounds like a NES Salamander fan, and all he's saying is "ahh, finally I have respawn!".

He's saying just that, but he uses big words like series rebirth and revolution, how Treasure know the real grasp of Gradius, opposed as Konami, that just makes shallows sequels. >_<

One thing he doesn't mention however, is that Treasure was not so daring to impose the respawn. You have by default, but I know gamers who switch that off without even thinking to it.

I guess it should be nice to say Salamander and Gradius plays differently: he happens to like a gameplay over the other, but this shouldn't be enough a reason to badmouth or despise what he dislikes. Either he didn't play Gofer no Yabou or Gaiden, or he did but felt punished by the different gameplay. That's not a reason to see the series as "decadence" from Salamander to Gradius V... He makes that too easy, you really wonder if he played the games.

That's exactly the impression I got. Someone who was only vaguely familiar with the Gradius series wrote an ultimately shallow article that used fancy 10 dollar words and comparisons that don't stand up to scrutiny. I've only read a few insertcredit articles, but they sure seem full of themselves.

Treasure is great. Gradius V is great. But it's an evolution, not a revolution (as with Metroid Prime). Now, if I had only played Gradius III and IV, I'd have agreed with him. Those games are stale. But Gaiden did as much to refresh the series as Gradius V has.

As for respawning versus check points, anybody who's played Gradius knows that check points are vital. Check points give you a chance to get some power ups back. Some areas are nigh impossible to beat if you don't have a couple speed ups and/or missiles. Salamander and Gradius V lets you keep your options, but that just wouldn't work in other Gradius games. You need more than options to get through some areas. And if your goal is to 1cc a Gradius game, checkpoints give you more practice. You need to learn how to get through an area without dying. Better to go through again and learn from your mistakes than to trudge onward.

[Kiken]

BlueLander and Turrican, I too, agree with your views (and I used to write reviews for insertcredit).

I think the largest problem is that Konami US and Europe really did their respective region Gradius fans a disservice by not releasing Gradius Gaiden. Because I've noticed that Gradius supporters seem to fall into 2 categories: Those who have played Gradius Gaiden, and those who haven't.

This isn't to say its any sort of an elitist thing, but when reading through various reviews, articles and posts, you can always tell if the player has played GG. It really is quite a pivotal game in the series. It took elements from both Gradius and Salamander, and mixed them together effectively. From Gradius it took multiple weapon layouts (in the form of 4 unique ships), the classic Gradius power meter and multiple shield types. From Salamander it took 2-player simultaneous play, respawning (although, only in the 2-player game... assuming both players didn't die at the same time) and Option capture (limited to 2-player mode).

Given the above, one could argue that the game plays like classic Gradius in single player, but plays like Life Force (due to the Gradius power-meter) in 2-player mode.

But, the biggest innovation that GG offers is the Guage Edit (no, it's not in part IV, I was just delirious). The ability to shift around the required number of power-ups necessary to activate various weapons completely changes how the game can be played. This single inclusion justifies the single-player check-point system. It can actually be more beneficial to be put back a distance in the game and regain power ups than to simply come back in and grab your Options (if possible).

Gradius V places complete emphasis on the usage of the Options, therefore it can be argued that respawning is more fair towards the player.

I'd illucidate on the matter further if I wasn't at work.

But, the article was an interesting read, none-the-less.

[BiQ]

Now, if this article does not require me to comment, then nothing does...

Y'know, NES Life Force was my absolute favourite of the whole franchise until Gradius V came along, for the exactly same reasons this writer states: respawn, tag-team multiplayer, reclaimable options. So it might not be a surprise that I share some of his sentiments about striking similarities between two. However I certainly don't feel like dismissing every Gradius/Salamander game between NES Life Force and Gradius as stale/insignificant/non-progressive, especially after having had the priviledge of playing Gradius Gaiden just once. Gradius V is certainly a significant step in evolution, yes, but revolution? Not. I'm also wary of passing any judgements on the Gradius franchise as a whole, since the only titles I have any real familiarity with are SNES Gradius III, NES Life Force and Gradius V. Even if I have played GG, NES Gradius, PS2 Gradius III&IV and Some salamander too.

Personally, Gradius V has managed to be the first game in this whole franchise I love more than NES Life Force, but even this is not going to make me forget the feelings of nostalgia from being a 10-year old boy playing Life Force tag-team with my best childhood friend all night long... but this has nothing to do with the actual subject matter here.

[Blue Lander]

I think the largest problem is that Konami US and Europe really did their respective region Gradius fans a disservice by not releasing Gradius Gaiden. Because I've noticed that Gradius supporters seem to fall into 2 categories: Those who have played Gradius Gaiden, and those who haven't.

I wonder what Konami's reasoning was behind not releasing it here. Perhaps SCEA wouldn't let them. For people who haven't played Gradius Gaiden, just take Gradius Galaxies on the GBA and make it 100 times better.

It seems like the top three Gradius games are Gradius V, Gradius II, and Gradius Gaiden. It figures that only Gradius V got a home port in the US.

[Turrican]

I wonder what Konami's reasoning was behind not releasing it here. Perhaps SCEA wouldn't let them. For people who haven't played Gradius Gaiden, just take Gradius Galaxies on the GBA and make it 100 times better.

I don't think it's SCEA's doing. That is largely a myth. Especially regarding Konami. They are a too much important third party, so they were allowed to publish anything they wanted. In fact, their Psone lineup is full of 2D titles.

Nah... the fact is that opinion on Gaiden has changed a lot. TO US, veterans and amateurs, Gaiden looks like the best thing ever. But the large public of Playstation in 1996 wouldn't have notice the powerup bar customization, the four selectable ships... They would have seen a game which resembles a lot Gradius III. Times were not mature enough.

and btw, Kiken, I just want to point out that I appreciate insertcredit overall. It's just that Eric-Jon R. Waugh tends to be a bit cerebral in his articles. I wasn't convinced entirely by its Castlevania retrospective, you know.

I mean, he was one of the few who liked HoD, and has my respect for that (since I love the game), but he was going all weird like "Iga, this mastermind, he clearly has a vision for the saga, he is our Hideo Kojima, a true genius"... Funny how he forgot all this praise when Loi was released.

Btw, BiQ, I love Salamander a lot. It's tie with Gofer as the absolute best. And in certain ways, Gofer could have been seen as a stepback, especially for the 2 player lack. Then again, I suppose Gradius automatically become close to salamander when it goes 2p. Can't avoid that.

[Kiken]

I wonder what Konami's reasoning was behind not releasing it here. Perhaps SCEA wouldn't let them. For people who haven't played Gradius Gaiden, just take Gradius Galaxies on the GBA and make it 100 times better.

You know... I don't think SCEA were the problem this time. Konami US released several 2D games without apparent issue. They even managed to get the X68000 Dracula remake ported, which honestly, I never thought would make it out of Japan

It seems like the top three Gradius games are Gradius V, Gradius II, and Gradius Gaiden.

I concur.

[dave4shmups]

I've played all the Gradius games, including V, and I don't like ANY of them as much as Salamander 1 and 2. Recovering options was only added into the Gradius series in V; meanwhile you could do the same thing in Salamander clear back in the late 1980s!

[Turrican]

I've played all the Gradius games, including V, and I don't like ANY of them as much as Salamander 1 and 2. Recovering options was only added into the Gradius series in V; meanwhile you could do the same thing in Salamander clear back in the late 1980s!

With this way of thinking, almost all Parodius games beat the crap out of all the above mentioned shmups.

And, I could agree on Salamander/Lifeforce, but Sala 2... It's awesome, but it's no masterwork.

[WarpZone]

It's just in the natural order of things. You had a 1991 episode that was the same as Gofer no Yabou (and thus felt slightly inferior*), then a 1999 sequel that was even more a clone of it.GV does shuffle things, so it feels relatively new (after all 2 players, respawn, were all already seen things). But it does feel new also because the previous ones were rehashing.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what the author was saying. Gradius V is a natural continuation for the series (he never used the word 'revolution'). The series didn't really go anywhere for a while- like you say, there were several similar sequels. Gradius V pulls out of that hole.

For whatever additions were added to the series between Lifeforce and Gradius V (and however justified they might have been in their own particular context), I think the author's point is that Gradius V harkens back to to the basic essense of the series. To him (and to many), this directly involves the options. Even if they were never fully emphasized before, perhaps they should have been. To others, Gradius has been more about the power-bar and checkpoints than the options. Gradius III/IV/Gaiden is probably for them. Gradius V arguably has the cleaner, more focused approach, though.

[Turrican]

For whatever additions were added to the series between Lifeforce and Gradius V (and however justified they might have been in their own particular context), I think the author's point is that Gradius V harkens back to to the basic essense of the series. To him (and to many), this directly involves the options. Even if they were never fully emphasized before, perhaps they should have been.

I sense contradiction in your words. How can be the essence of a series something never really/fully developed until GV?

I don't think Gradius V gets back to the series' essence. In fact, in layout and overall background graphics (and therefore atmosphere) the game is something of a big leap. It surely reminds more Ikaruga thant usual Gradius setting, and I'm not talking (just) of Moai absence. All has a sterile, metallic look. And it's not casual that the less beautiful stage is the organic one that tries to mimic Salamander's, only to fall short in comparison (instead, the game excels with its original settings).

You can argue it gets back to Gradius' gameplay essence. There is surely truth in saying that GV has a minimalist and therefore "pure" structure. With only a kind of lasers, it reminds more Gradius than Gradius II.

I will say that GV's greatness is that it finally breaks the Gofer Curse. After all these years, a Gradius game doesn't have to be Gofer under facelift. This is really a great thing. But it's not getting back to a lost "essence". On the contrary, is venturing in a new direction.

And the thing he says about options... That too sound a little obvious talking, he's the first to admit. I mean, R-9 = Force, Vic Viper = Option, thanks, Einstein. Gradius V chose to focus mainly on options, but that was a wise choice, not THE choice. (then again, it's expanding some experimantation we had seen in G III)

[Blue Lander]

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what the author was saying. Gradius V is a natural continuation for the series (he never used the word 'revolution'). The series didn't really go anywhere for a while- like you say, there were several similar sequels. Gradius V pulls out of that hole.

Yeah, but it did go somewhere. Play Gradius Gaiden and you'll see that for yourself. And by comparing Gradius V to Metroid Prime, they're implying that the game did something revolutionary with the series. A conclusion I might have come to as well if I hadn't played Gaiden.

And I've always found the essence of Gradius games to be the combinations of the power bar and the options. You need the right set up depending on the level, but for the most part you never needed options to survive. Gradius V makes options more essential, which is nice, but it's not "getting back to basics", it's adding something new.

[Turrican]

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what the author was saying.

No. By saying that's in the natural order of things, I'm saying that it just happens to series to find an excellent formula (SotN, Gofer) and stick to it until it eventually doesn't feel fresh anymore. And then, innovate again.

He instead is implying, that Konami is unable to get a grasp of the series' essence, and that only Treasure were able to see the good points in Gradius (which of course are the things he likes, like respawn) and to forge a great game.

He is refusing to recognize what good and excellent there is in the series after NES Salamander, like if Gradius suddenly went into a Dark Age that only Treasure can put an end to.

It's a simplistic way of seeing things. He commits several logic errors, that denote superficial knowledge of the series.

-He overestimate NES Salamander, seen as a product of genius, while it was product of constant refining and adjustment. (he knows this as he's aware that Sala arcade didn't have a bar)

-Underestimates the games made by Gofer imprinting, basically 1988-1999. That's rejecting a lot of Gradius' history, seeing it as just derivative.

-And finally, he sees Gradius V as the product that picks up all the good and leaves out all the bad, but this is very subjective. So subjective, that Treasure itself didn't feel so sure about doing a Gradius with respawning only.

[Blue Lander]

And is it just me, or does respawning in a Gradius game sound sacreligious? The way I look at Gradius games is that you have to master every square inch of every level. You've got to learn all the patterns and figure out strategies, otherwise you simply can't continue (unless you get lucky). With respawning, you can just die your way through a tough spot without really figuring it out. That takes half the fun out of a Gradius game.

[landshark]

And is it just me, or does respawning in a Gradius game sound sacreligious? The way I look at Gradius games is that you have to master every square inch of every level. You've got to learn all the patterns and figure out strategies, otherwise you simply can't continue (unless you get lucky). With respawning, you can just die your way through a tough spot without really figuring it out. That takes half the fun out of a Gradius game.

Not at all. This was a 'feature' of the original gradius games that I hated. It prevents being 100% stuck at a point in the game.

Even with the die and continue formula of GV, it is still a damned hard game. I don't see too many people here looping it, and even fewer making it through the 2nd loop.

[Blue Lander]

Not at all. This was a 'feature' of the original gradius games that I hated. It prevents being 100% stuck at a point in the game.

Even with the die and continue formula of GV, it is still a damned hard game. I don't see too many people here looping it, and even fewer making it through the 2nd loop.

Maybe playing Gradius for the past week has made me masochistic, but it seems to me that if you're stuck at a point, you should repeat it until you've mastered it. That's the "Gradius" way to me. Not that Treasure shouldn't try new things with the series, it just seemed like an odd choice to me for them to change one of the trademarks of the series. And you're right, Gradius V is pretty hard as it is.

[fnoo]

Gradius Gaiden is... cute. It's got a lot of clever ideas and variations in it. The prisms that refocus shots, the Bacterion Vic Viper-ish thing, the level which is constantly being destroyed. It really is endearing. It practically coos to anyone with the slightest affection for the series. It's almost like a serious version of Parodius.

It's also doing one of the most thorough and definitive jobs of going through the motions that I've seen. It's collected 'em all. Nowhere obvious to go from here. Which, I guess, is what fans of anything typically ask for. So I can see where its reputation comes from.

At least it's not sterile, as the main series usually is. It's having fun with what it has. Brainless fun. But fun.

I just played Gradius V again earlier, and I... didn't do so well. Am out of practice. I did notice how much I enjoyed playing the thing, though. Other Gradius games, I play just to see what's next. What the next level's theme will be, what strange gimmicks the game will throw at me. This one doesn't have so much of that. Instead, it's just satisfying for its own sake. The playing is its own end, its own reward.

That's probably why I was relieved not to see a single moai. Refreshing not to have to think about all of that. Not to have these cheap rewards to make me feel forced to play more than I want to.

It's got its act together.

[Zhon]

Well, insertcredit is an interesting site to read, despite its pretentiousness. They've made factual errors in the past as well- like calling Protoman a villian in the X series, or something along those lines, but they make good points as well.

These things really pop up when someone who really isn't versed in some discipline wants to say something about it. Like if I were to try two different wines and write something about it - those wine nuts, err, connessieurs, would probably be able to point out a million ways that they disagree. A lot of shmup subtleties aren't noticed by someone who isn't a shmup enthusiast - but their points of view are valid as they are video game buyers and players as well.

[tehkao]

I loved Gradius V. When I saw the Stage 2 boss and heard the classic Salamander boss music, I got so nostalgic I wept.