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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:02 pm 


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At least today I learned what an arcade game is.


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:40 pm 



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I learned that MrJBRPG is an EXA fanboy.
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:18 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
At least today I learned what an arcade game is.


:lol:
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:03 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
cv1k port to a platform with 3 frames of default lag, good luck I guess

It is currently running at 2f lag all-together on exA, the same as the original PCB and 2f less than the 360 port.
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:40 pm 


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wait! are they porting the cv1k version of the game on this thing? why the fuck
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:48 pm 


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That's an odd conclusion to come to.
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:51 pm 


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I'll believe you once you explain the lag reported in A&B on a CRT (or worse, in the input test mode)


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:55 pm 


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A&B's lag comes from Unity primarily I believe, and I think is something like 4f in total... a bit unfortunate, but seems like an engine issue. That said, I haven't done any actual investigation into A&B, so I don't know any specifics really. I'm not sure why the input test is so fucked, maybe a lack of care since it's just for testing that controls work, but it is much worse than in-game for sure.

Infinos EXA is also 2f, and is out now, so you could check me by checking that :)
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:43 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
Bananamatic wrote:
cv1k port to a platform with 3 frames of default lag, good luck I guess

It is currently running at 2f lag all-together on exA, the same as the original PCB and 2f less than the 360 port.


That's very cool. Thanks for confirming.
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:45 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
A&B's lag comes from Unity primarily I believe


I have no knowledge of A&B's code, but it is very easy to produce extra lag when using unity.
I fell into that particular trap a little while ago when making something non-game related using unity, after it became a problem a rather simple fix cut the latency in half.
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:55 am 


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trap15 wrote:
A&B's lag comes from Unity primarily I believe, and I think is something like 4f in total... a bit unfortunate, but seems like an engine issue. That said, I haven't done any actual investigation into A&B, so I don't know any specifics really. I'm not sure why the input test is so fucked, maybe a lack of care since it's just for testing that controls work, but it is much worse than in-game for sure.

Infinos EXA is also 2f, and is out now, so you could check me by checking that :)


Okay...

I am intrigued by the conversation on the input lag discussion, and I believe that input lag is defined on processing the input and game logic before displaying changes on the screen.
We know that Exa Arcadia, through the CEO / Founder's own words, that maximum input lag limit is 4 frames and minimum recorded is 2 frames.

To verify the input lag measurement, is it the following:


1. JVS IO board and game software logic to the motherboard unit, with display monitor excluded
2. combined total of JVS IO board, game logic, and rendering output to the monitor from the motherboard
3. game software logic only to the motherboard, which the IO board and the monitor are excluded, which does explain additional input lag from external devices

It's great to know so developers can be more hardcore on optimizing towards lower input lag.


Last edited by MrJBRPG on Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:59 am 


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A game can have as much input lag as it wants, technically. I would hope developers care about their input lag situation, but it's up to them in the end. Minimum could potentially be 1 frame with some trickery, I think 2 or 3 is a respectable amount.

I said all-together, so I mean comparing switch activation with on-screen action.
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:22 am 


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I spent basically all of my time after work today doing some massive changes to the video backend for Gimmick in order to bring lag down to 2f, as I was dissatisfied with the average 3-4f from the loctest.

By adding a frame-by-frame advance feature, I was able to validate that I wasn't erroneously introducing buffer stages between what the game logic perceives as input, and the act of running the logic. That is to say, if I put it in frame advance mode, hold jump, then advance one frame, Yumetaro jumps on the very next rendered frame. This gives me confidence that the game logic is not a problem. Runahead emulation does not apply in this case, anyway, so that wouldn't fix anything if there was game logic lag here.

What remains is the double-ended challenge of the input systems that feed into the game logic, and the video system that follows it.

For the input, JVS takes time to poll. It takes a lot of time for some IOs. Even better, some IO boards will take their sweet time to respond to your request, and then give you old data! The Sega "Type B" IO with the built-in JAMMA is pretty awful in this regard. The Capcom one is a bit better, but it double-buffers internally still. So far, the best has been the Sega "Type 3" Lindberg IO, and some of the Taito Vewlix ones. Two variables at play, out of our control: 1) how long the IO takes to give us data, and 2) how often, and how deeply buffered, the IO's internal updating process runs.

For the output, there are some enemies presented by many modern graphics APIs. It may be difficult to mitigate these the further you are away from the actual underlying graphics calls and drivers; working with OpenGL calls directly is a very close way that gives you a lot of control, while working with a prebaked engine (Game Maker Studio, Unity, etc) may take you a lot further away from it - or at least hide a lot of the nice knobs.

In 2020, sometimes it is necessary to jump through some absurd hoops to get the input lag under control. Everything modern wants to buffer everything for you in queues deeper than you'd like, and wants you to do everything asynchronously! If you want to be in precise control of latency, it is sometimes necessary to defeat these mechanisms of convenience.

I don't want to go into detail with it, but I rewrote Gimmick's video today to defeat some problems with a library I was using, and switched to another wholesale.

--

When measuring JAMMA boards, we can usually remove concerns about the input complexity. Most often, it's just a raw uint8 or something similar mapped to a memory address. Your delay is just gate propagation, not worth mentioning (some more complex boards like STV have a microcontroller doing the input reading, and sometimes it can fuck it up).

With JVS... it's difficult to get a clear measurement without closer introspection. You can analyze the bus to see how long it's taking doing TX and RX (and time between), but it still doesn't tell you if the data is out of date at a glance.

--

As of today, this is how I've measured my results in improving Gimmick's latency:

There's a useful free application called Is it Snappy, which lets you scrub through a 240fps recording from a phone camera and mark Input and Output frames. It will then tell you the difference.

I have an LED hooked up to Button 2 (Jump, in this game). When the button is pressed, it illuminates (it is buffered by a 74LS04 inverter to achieve this).

I have the phone in portrait, so that the rolling shutter of the camera does not cause a substantial discrepancy between Yumetaro in the middle and the LED on the bottom. Otherwise, we might get an additional 1/240th of a second error.

This first screenshot is the frame [i]before[i/] the button is pressed. Here, a frame is 1/240th of a second; four camera frames (4 x 4.16ms) is one game frame (16.67ms).
Image

This second screenshot shows the LED illuminated. The button has been pressed. The raster is about 1/2 completed; the game requests inputs from JVS at the start of vblank. This is our Input frame.
Image

This third screenshot is the frame right before we have positive confirmation that Yumetaro has jumped.
Image

This last screenshot shows that Yumetaro has jumped. This is our Output frame.
Image

The difference between the Output and Input frames show just about two frames (33.3ms).


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:29 am 


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Hm. I'm using the Sega rev B boards myself. If they're as bad as you say here, I'm going to have to explore alternatives.


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:29 pm 


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MrJBRPG wrote:
We know that Exa Arcadia, through the CEO / Founder's own words, that maximum input lag limit if 4 frames


Will the ghost of Takakura Ken break into your house and chop off your hog if your game goes over 4f? :O
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:02 pm 


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Discovered latest update from developer behind Vritra Hexa, with new stage and boss in progress (used translate machine) thanks to quick sketch of new boss.
https://twitter.com/saddy575/status/1240705200500830208


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:43 pm 


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An auspicious development - that turtle looks ready to bite an incautious handler's hog clean off :O
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:30 am 


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mikejmoffitt: thank you, great work! When I finally get the chance to play this, I'll be thinking about these after-work hours of yours. I mean it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:41 pm 


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https://exa.ac/en/2020/03/31/exa-arcadi ... 177369a3b7

I did suspect that Exa Arcadia had to cancel physical showings out of safety, and the announcement really helps. Glad that Exa Arcadia is more communicative.


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:57 am 


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So, are those cartridges literal usb flash drives or what?

Also I can't see this catching on anywhere outside of Asia.

Maybe Round 1 USA will have it? I doubt it since it seems like the bulk of their games are surplus units the Japanese branch didn't need for whatever reason, usually due to them being obsolete (which is why they're still on vanilla Tekken 7)

I can't see a lot of the arcades you see nowadays that have redemption games and Raw Thrills lightgun/driving games as their bread and butter wanting to buy this. Look at it through the eyes of a boardwalk arcade owner: Why would you pay thousands of dollars for these weird galaga clones with constant japanese girl chattering that random tourists will just look at confused and walk away from when you could buy another stacker machine and rack in the dough from suckers?
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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:37 pm 


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cave hermit wrote:
constant japanese girl chattering


Oh god! I just realised, you won't be able to do this in an arcade.

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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:30 pm 



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cave hermit wrote:
So, are those cartridges literal usb flash drives or what?

Looks like its either proprietary or an SSD drive in a plastic shell.
https://youtu.be/6XjaJAmWsa0?t=413


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 Post subject: Re: EXAーARCADIA [New Arcade Platform/Publisher]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:06 pm 


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pablumatic wrote:
cave hermit wrote:
So, are those cartridges literal usb flash drives or what?

Looks like its either proprietary or an SSD drive in a plastic shell.
https://youtu.be/6XjaJAmWsa0?t=413


Looks similar to an msata drive connection, but with a few less pins than standard. So probably a small ssd with slightly modified connector.


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