Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

This is the main shmups forum. Chat about shmups in here - keep it on-topic please!
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by Xyga »

Yeah, funny that DEmul is the same.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
el_rika
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:44 pm

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by el_rika »

Mame driver basically uses the demul code as far as i know.
xMetalliCx
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: UA

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by xMetalliCx »

trap15 wrote:
Xyga wrote:Pay trap15 $1,000,000 and he will do this: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 73#p954773

:p
P.S. more research indicates the blitter is barely even related to the slowdown, it's all in the CPU. MAME's got the clocks all wrong, there's a lot of work that would need to be done to get it performing right.
what kind of research it was ? based on logic analyzer measurements we did - it really looks like blitter speed is main bottleneck in CV1K games. however, SH3 RAM access latency probably have some penalty too.
so, I'm sorry, but it looks like you are not really understand what you are talking about, and how this piece of hardware works...
User avatar
Sumez
Posts: 8010
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
Location: Denmarku
Contact:

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by Sumez »

I'm pretty sure he is understand.
xMetalliCx
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: UA

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by xMetalliCx »

Xyga wrote:Yeah, funny that DEmul is the same.
el_rika wrote:Mame driver basically uses the demul code as far as i know.
about right, I've did basic research and very simple and approximate blitter delay calculation, which is now used in both Demul and MAME.

MAME is volunteer project, basically it is collection of code from whatever people who had good will to work on research of some hardware, and then submit results to MAME project.
User avatar
Bananamatic
Posts: 3530
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:21 pm

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by Bananamatic »

i hope trap responds so we get some sweet dev on dev drama
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by Xyga »

Ah ok didn't know it was the same code.

In any case for Pink Sweets adjusting blitter delay alone doesn't seem to have any significant effect...
...while underclocking the CPU at around 40% I get some slowdowns back and can somewhat survive stage 5.
Some boss patterns also slow down this way.

Now I'd have to go back to the 360 port to compare (although that one too is different from the pcb) and try to find better CPU+blitter values. Comparing and adjusting is a long/painful task though.




EDIT: scratch that, vs. a video of a pcb run of the original PS is simpler.
For now the below settings seem to work reasonably for me although not feeling ideal yet, fine-tuning's required:

- blitter delay 63%
- CPU overclock 40%

And for the lag I use GroovyMAME d3d9ex w/ frame_delay 5 (my PC can't do more for that particular game, especially bc of stage 5)
frame_delay is not mandatory, with a d3d9ex build you already get -2 frames compared to normal MAME and the response is bearable, but if your PC is strong enough for it you'll get a little better than -2 frames.

The annoying detail is that the CPU overclock feature being a 'cheat', the setting afaik doesn't save in MAME, and even if you 'force'-save it using a savestate, despite still showing 40% the oc might not be active the second time you launch the game, so just touch it once again (like set 41% then back to 40%) and it'll work as intended.


PS: to use the CPU overclock/underclock feature you need to turn 'cheat' on (1) in the mame.ini
EDIT: indeed the cheat file is not needed, but the CPU setting still doesn't save.
Last edited by Xyga on Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
xMetalliCx
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: UA

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by xMetalliCx »

ughh, I think it was explained couple of times already:
actual blitter speed is affected by many factors - operation type (sprite upload from RAM to VRAM is much slower than blit operations), blitting modes, also possible blit area dimensions or if blitting happen during active display or not, and maybe few more unknown things.
neither of these "speeds" is known, so you cant get really correct slowdowns whatever blit delay of CPU clocks was set.

in >90% cases CPU is not bottleneck, more over it highly underused, that's why you may run some CV1K game on MAME, press "Insert" key and got about 1000% speed - because SH3 CPU load usually about 30% or so, so with speed hacks / idle skips it may work damn fast.
Xyga wrote:PS: to use the CPU overclock/underclock feature you need to have Pugsy's cheat file as cheat.7z (do not unpack it) in your MAME folder, then turn 'cheat' on (1) in the mame.ini
here's 0.199 -> http://www.mamecheat.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 10&t=12477
cheat file is not required, it is enough to have cheats enabled in mame.ini.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by Xyga »

xMetalliCx wrote:ughh, I think it was explained couple of times already:
actual blitter speed is affected by many factors - operation type (sprite upload from RAM to VRAM is much slower than blit operations), blitting modes, also possible blit area dimensions or if blitting happen during active display or not, and maybe few more unknown things.
neither of these "speeds" is known, so you cant get correct slowdowns whatever blit delay of CPU clocks was set.
Well it might not be identical-to-accuracy with these settings, but - believe it or not - much closer now than before when I was trying with only blitter delay (which for Pink Sweets didn't seem to produce any slowdowns at all anyway)

It really works in a way that at the very least makes the game playable, with slowdowns rather in the right spots including when using the rose cracker. For the latter in a couple of places it seemed even closer to the pcb than the 360 port.
xMetalliCx wrote:cheat file is not required, it is enough to have cheats enabled in mame.ini.
Ah uh, maybe I'll double check.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
trap15
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:13 am
Location: 東京都杉並区
Contact:

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by trap15 »

xMetalliCx wrote:so, I'm sorry, but it looks like you are not really understand what you are talking about, and how this piece of hardware works...
I feel I'm at least on the right track, performance in pink sweets at least is fairly close anyways. But you are right, I did not do any serious deep dive into how it works yet. I may in the future, so that I can get actual performance numbers, but for now my guesstimate seems to work closer to PCB than whatever MAME is using by default. I've not actually tried demul (sorry!), but I would assume it's similar there.
@trap0xf | daifukkat.su/blog | scores | FIRE LANCER
<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
User avatar
poptart
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:20 am

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by poptart »

Just had a session on this now that mame supports it properly and i have to say it's pretty good. It won't win any new fans most likely as the unorthodox style still remains but the controls are really nice (how to makes it seem like it will be confusing and ott) and the additions/tweaks are really decent.

I like it.
User avatar
OlDirty
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by OlDirty »

KAI wrote:
OlDirty wrote:I created the rom file as explained in a post above but i have no idea how to play that on my pc. Mame 0.197 just starts Pink Sweets.
Just rename the game as "pinkswtsx.zip" and the files inside as:
pnkswtsx_u2
pnkswtsx_u4
u23
u24
and mame will boot the hack when you run that romset.
Thanks for the tip but i still don't get it.

If i take the pinkswts.zip file and decompress it in the same folder as the suicideclub.exe. Then run the suicideclub.exe from the Command promt i get the following message

suicideclub: found source file: pinkswts_u2
suicideclub: found source file: pinkswts_u4
suicideclub: found source file: u23
suicideclub: found source file: u24
suicideclub: successfully created: suicideclub.u2
suicideclub: successfully created: suicideclub.u4
suicideclub: successfully created: suicideclub.u23
suicideclub: successfully created: suicideclub.u24

But in the pinkswts.zip are also 3 folders (pinkswtsa, pinkswtsb, pinkswtsx). What i have to do with them?
User avatar
OlDirty
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by OlDirty »

Finaly Suicide Club is running on my Cab with Groovy Mame 0.200. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39VcoIxjlHM&t=54s

Problem is, that "normal" shot (button 1) doesn't work just rapid shot (button 3). Is this normal or is something wrong here? Normal shot works with Pinks Sweets "vanilla".
User avatar
Muchi Muchi Spork
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

That's correct. You can use A for several things. By itself it slows the ship down, A+C slows you down while raising the shot frequency and A+B would shoot rose hips while slowing the ship.
User avatar
cave hermit
Posts: 1543
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:46 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by cave hermit »

So how feasible would a patch for jtag/rgh 360s be to play Suicide Club in the 360 port?
User avatar
AntiFritz
Posts: 1629
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:34 am
Location: Australia

Re: Pink Sweets Suicide Club (alternate version)

Post by AntiFritz »

cave hermit wrote:So how feasible would a patch for jtag/rgh 360s be to play Suicide Club in the 360 port?
Likely not feasible at all.
RegalSin wrote:Rape is very shakey subject. It falls into the catergory of Womens right, Homosexaul rights, and Black rights.
Post Reply