What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it)?

[copy-paster]

TBH the only Toaplan game I have played is NES Tiger-Heli, Kyuukyoku Tiger, Hishouzame, and Batsugun. I think all of them are great, while Batsugun Special is my all-time favorite.

[d0s]

Same Same Same

firing rates being excessively capped

planes often being painfully slow

hmm

[Shepardus]

I find SameSameSame's firing limit pretty generous compared to Hishouzame, Raiden 1/2/DX, and many similar games, but yeah its movement speed is pretty painful without speedups, especially with how fast the enemy bullets get. At least unlike Raiden it's got speedups, and the maximum speed feels pretty comfortable. I like that trap15's hack gets rid of speedups and gives you that movement speed permanently.

[PooshhMao]

That would be Tatsujin Ou (AKA Truxton II), arcade version.

[Deadliar]

Outzone is pure bliss.

[Seb@s]

impossible to choose.

for me it's OutZone & Tastsujin !
both Shmup masterpieces for me.

[To Far Away Times]

Batsugun or Batsugun Special

[BAD]

Played Truxton and KyuuKyoku Tiger a lot on the Genesis over the Summer, and had a lot of fun. Both were fulfilling and I can remember playing them when I was younger.

[Austin]

My personal favorite by Toaplan is Twin Cobra/Kyuukyoku Tiger. Really enjoy the arcade versions but I also really dig the home conversions. Each has its own distinct traits that I enjoy: Genesis for the distinct OST and darker colors; PCE for brighter colors, easier stock difficulty and grittier soundtrack; NES one because there's nothing else quite like it on the system even though it'll destroy your ears (and probably your eyes too); FM Towns for the arcade game with remixed OST, etc.

I'd say my next favorite is probably Batsugun.

[jepjepjep]

Top Tier:
Hishouzame, Kyukyoku Tiger, Tatsujin (the Holy Trinity of Toaplan awesomeness)
V-V
Outzone

Great Tier:
Batsugun
Same!Same!Same!
Zero Wing
Dogyuun

Good Tier:
Tatsujin Oh
Fixeight

Mediocre Tier:
Daisenpuu
Tiger Heli
Hellfire

[Despatche]

You're okay with Zero Wing but not Hellfire...? That's new.

Thank you, OmegaFlareX.

Having to precisely take out the same dull enemy formations a dozen times in a row whilst soporific music plays becomes unbearable after a while, at least for me.

There is nothing "soporific" about Tatsujin Ou's high octane tunes.

It's a shame really. Game could have been something truly special, it has amazing sprite work too. Like you said though, death sentence.

It is something truly special. I'm sorry you dislike it?

I'm surprised anyone would make the argument that hard = good in this genre, where hard is the default.

If that were true, I could just give up on all other aspects of my game design and just repeat one endless bullet barf at the player for 30 minutes straight, and I know it won't be boring no matter how repetitive it is if it's somewhat challenging.

I have never understood this strange idea that "hard game" means "one endless bullet barf". I see it far too often to not say something.

That aside, as long as the game is possible, it doesn't really matter how hard it is. There are too many easy games and not enough hard games, anyway.

This is why Devil Engine excites me; games like that shouldn't even exist in this watered-down world.

Play Dogyuun instead. Released the same year, and a far more interesting game to play, even with its long length.

None of the weapons make sense, neither of the armors make sense, a mysterious rear tractor that breaks the game, a crash bug that is actually a good thing, and very few of the stages are interesting. Dogyuun is the definition of excess, and cannot even begin to be compared to a game like Tatsujin Ou. You are also totally wrong about the first boss. You can wing a lot of it and you totally do not need bombs. The only thing you really need to worry about are the glass bulb things, and that's only a problem if you're not using the red weapon. You can also mostly wing the second boss as well.

The only real flaws in Tatsujin Ou are the stage 3 boss safespot, the blue weapon sucking, and the game not having a final boss theme (which is a genre problem for this time period). Seriously. "Boring" or not is a matter of opinion. Once you start making comments on the game's design, you'd better be prepared.

Oh, and as noted, I actually personally prefer the first Tatsujin. It does certain nice things that Ou does not.

#4 would probably be V V or something, by the way.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm surprised anyone would make the argument that hard = good in this genre, where hard is the default.

If that were true, I could just give up on all other aspects of my game design and just repeat one endless bullet barf at the player for 30 minutes straight, and I know it won't be boring no matter how repetitive it is if it's somewhat challenging.

I have never understood this strange idea that "hard game" means "one endless bullet barf".

It doesn't. I was making the point that you need to be hard and have strong design fundamentals (variety, pacing, balance, risk/reward, etc. etc.). Hard and exciting aren't mutually inclusive. You can have a game that's hard and also too repetitive or poorly paced or with too many braindead patterns to be exciting.

This is why Devil Engine excites me; games like that shouldn't even exist in this watered-down world.

Then get excited for my game too because nobody made it halfway through the first stage demo ^_^

(but yeah that's stupid and I'm nerfing it)

[d0s]

You're okay with Zero Wing but not Hellfire...? That's new.

That aside, as long as the game is possible, it doesn't really matter how hard it is. There are too many easy games and not enough hard games, anyway.

agreeing with despatche itt

tatsujin * is boring tho.

[jepjepjep]

You're okay with Zero Wing but not Hellfire...? That's new.

I love the music in Zero Wing, that goes a long way. I like the grungy aesthetic, similar to Outzone and Tatsujin 1. The game is just fun to play, but it's no masterpiece. Hellfire doesn't hook me the same way. It seems a little awkward to me, both in mechanics and design.

Tatsujin Oh is a game that I want to love, but I feel the same as some of the others in the thread. I kind of think Toaplan lost the plot a little after Kyukyoku Tiger and Tatsujin. Same!Same!Same! (AC version) and Tatsujin Oh just don't resonate in the same way. Actually, the first 1/2 of S!S!S! is amazing, but then it just becomes memorize-or-die, that combined with the extremely slow power-up system kills all the momentum and sucks the fun out of the game for me.

[5pectre]

Batsugun <3

[Despatche]

For what it's worth, I was not making a comment on my own personal preference for Zero Wing or Hellfire, just noticing that people usually hate or adore both together.

Might as well do that, though. I greatly prefer Hellfire, but would also argue it's a better game. Zero Wing weapons are extremely jank, stages are long in a frustrating way and there's eight of them, and the red flashing is a net negative (being able to patch it out does not make this okay).

tatsujin * is boring tho.

At least you just dislike both games, like people used to. That always made more sense for some reason.

[OmegaFlareX]

I like Zero Wing but not Hellfire. I'd might like Hellfire if someone made a hack where it is four buttons and each corresponds to one of the weapons.

Not sure why you're thanking me?

I would not be able to play Zero Wing if I ever saw it in an arcade due to the red flash. And fwiw, it's not a patch but a cheat you can toggle.

[JBC]

I like Vimana alot. It's visually nice & a pretty relaxing play that's still got some challenge.

[maximo310]

Play Dogyuun instead. Released the same year, and a far more interesting game to play, even with its long length.

None of the weapons make sense, neither of the armors make sense, a mysterious rear tractor that breaks the game, a crash bug that is actually a good thing, and very few of the stages are interesting. Dogyuun is the definition of excess, and cannot even begin to be compared to a game like Tatsujin Ou. You are also totally wrong about the first boss. You can wing a lot of it and you totally do not need bombs. The only thing you really need to worry about are the glass bulb things, and that's only a problem if you're not using the red weapon. You can also mostly wing the second boss as well.

The only real flaws in Tatsujin Ou are the stage 3 boss safespot, the blue weapon sucking, and the game not having a final boss theme (which is a genre problem for this time period). Seriously. "Boring" or not is a matter of opinion. Once you start making comments on the game's design, you'd better be prepared.

Well, then I'd like for you to 1-ALL Ou, and see if your opinion still stands after that.

That's what I did to form my opinion of Dogyuun, and it'll give you a better context of the game design/length, etc. I just don't enjoy Tatsujin Ou nearly as much ( after getting to stg 4 boss, and doing practice on stg 5/ stg 5 boss), and there's nothing wrong with that or stating that it has game design flaws.

[FabulousVioletGuy]

Curious why you put the Tatsujins so low on your list, Chum. They're surely a lot better than duds like Daisenpuu and Vimana.

[EmperorIng]

I actually wonder how chum's list would change now that he's one of the precious few that has 1ALL'd Same! Same! Same!

This is also one of those topics I always wanted to post an opinion on but could never make up my mind. My favorite Toaplan changes all the time. I've gone from loving, to hating, to kinda-loving Tatsujin Ou, for example.

[Prales]

.

[chum]

Same Same Same is Toaplans best shmup by far imo and arguably even a masterpiece, so I would put that at the top now. What little is "wrong" with it (such as the base speed upon death and the difficulty of getting speed items) doesn't really bother me a huge amount, but everything that's amazing about it makes it lovely and rewarding to learn to play. As far as survival oriented shmup goes this is peak and as great as Batsugun Special is, I like Same Same Same significantly more.
Incredible bosses considering the game came out before the 90s (just compare it to Kyukyoku Tiger's sorry excuse for bosses). What really shines though is the 10 levels. Most of them offer very different gameplay (considering the innate limitations of a 80s vertical shmup) and scenery. The game only really truly begins to get serious in level 5 in my opinion. That's where the game begins to shine. Every single level from 5 onward is full of masterful design which is unparalleled in this kind of shmup from what I've played. Hishouzame? Sure, the game is outstanding in a more subtle fashion and not as extreme, but that lack of extreme material is why I'd rather not play Hishouzame over Same Same Same. Hishouzame is more the kind of material you zone out to, like meditation. Same Same Same is much more intense in loop 1 than Hishouzame gets in max difficulty (loop 3+) and in my experience was much more rewarding to learn. I would even go so for as to say that the weakest levels in Same Same Same are probably better than the best levels in Hishouzame. Learning every nook and cranny of the levels, especially the most brilliant ones like level 6 or 10, and how to recover on many (I didn't learn all) checkpoints only made me like the game more and more. That is a mark of masterful design right there.

If there was interest in criticism and such in this hobby, I likely would've made videos breaking down the level design so people can understand just how much thought was put into it, after I was done with the game and everything was fresh in my mind. The reason is that because of the game's brutal difficulty it is very difficult for players to really break through and understand the level design. I've seen many comments that the game is unfair and that recoveries are impossible and stuff like that, which couldn't be further from the truth. The only level that wasn't designed with recoveries or true "fairness" I guess you could call it in mind is stage 10. 1 Stage out of 10. That doesn't mean you can't get out of stage 10 either, it just means you won't get out of it with just 1 death if you die early on. In a game where you get rich on extra lives I think one stage like that is acceptable and even quite interesting, because it allowed the developers push it to the limit and to design a level that is much more extreme than the others. While it might be sadistic, I'm the kind of gamer that enjoys sadism as long as it is thoughtful, interesting and most importantly, enjoyable.

I also personally really love fast bullets (you'll find most of my favorite shmups are full of fast bullets, it's a preference I have) and I think this game might have the fastest consistent bullet speed in Toaplan's shmup library?

As for the Tatsujins.

I did try out Tatsujin (1) again recently and I still can't stand the level design. That's really the main thing, the level design is obnoxious nonsense and doesn't really invite me to keep playing and learn the levels properly. This is lazy, uninspired level design all around, which is really not acceptable in a shmup with nothing to do except dodge and shoot enemies. Tatsujin Ou is more promising and I do want to try to get into it one of these days (I've only made it to level 5 before, I think on the western version) because I love super hard games, and I always loved Tatsujin Ou from an adventure standpoint, the game looks gorgeous with scenery that really stands out in the space style shmups, and it's also well paced like a journey if it was anything but a shmup. Problem is that it is exactlty that: a shmup. In my book an intense action game can't really afford to have all the bloat and slowness that Tatsujin Ou has, because you're not meant to play the game just once. The levels just go on and on and on with some truly egregious repetitious enemy waves. It's the kind of thing that drains my motivation to play over and over like I normally play shmups. Some of the bosses are ridiculously repetitive as well. Still unlike the first Tatsujin I think a reappraisal is possible here, because even though I don't currently consider it a game I like, I do think the game is something really special (not just the difficulty) and I want to stress that both games look and sound great, I just don't really like, y'know, playing them as of now.

If Tatsujin Ou is in another Calice or something that gives me an excuse to play it I will hopefully do just that and I want to have a pleasant surprise and come around to enjoying it if so. I really want to like this game. The first Tatsujin though is just kind of a hopeless case and I don't think I'll ever come around to liking that.

With Tatsujin I think what I like about it the most is the soundtrack, especially the PC Engine version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6KqMUBSEWg stage 5 is one of the best songs in the genre.

With Tatsujin Ou it would have to be the scenery, as well as the possibility that overcoming the difficulty might be a rewarding practice in the future.

[Vludi]

I'd say Tatsujin's first two stages have pretty solid design, but the rest feel kind of loose and indistinct, lacking in more detailed terrain enemies and sort of unexciting until you die in a tough checkpoint. Stage 2 is the best because it feels like the most structured one and pretty much the only stage that tries to punish you for using the blue laser indiscriminately. 4 and 5 are the worst because they are a snoozefest with laser but most checkpoints are stupid and a matter of just having enough lives to waste until you reach a decent checkpoint.

[Flobeamer1922]

Truxton/Tatsujin is easily my favorite Toaplan shmup, and one of my favorite arcade games in general. Can't pick between Truxton and Tatsujin since they're barely different, but anyway, this is one I had a blast learning. Memorizing all the enemy spawns and behaviors, racking up the bombs in stage 3, getting good enough to tear through stage 4 with the blue laser, and learning how to deal with each stage 5 checkpoint, it was overall a very rewarding experience. I'll definitely be coming back to this game for a while to keep improving my PB.

Truxton II/Tatsujin Oh should be my favorite, but it's not, which is a damn shame. That game has so much going for it. The OST is phenomenal, it looks great, it has some very cool ideas, and the game feels like you're on a long epic journey to save the galaxy. However, as I've come to realize from actively learning the game, it's far from the most polished experience, and this does impact the gameplay. For example...

- Enemy explosions take sprite priority over bullets, which can easily cause you to die to one that you couldn't see coming until it was too late.
- Defeating the stage 3 boss just before it times out can cause the scrolling speed to not reset properly, which will quickly lead to your death as stage 4 zooms by with all of its enemies spawning at once.
- The stage 2 boss has a bug where you can die to the chain hitboxes while the boss is exploding, even after the chain graphics are gone.
- During the spike section in stage 6, the bomb becomes very unreliable, as the spikes absorb all the damage output, which can cause the stalagmites and green zako to go right through the bomb graphic.

Also, most of the bosses in the game are terrible. With the stage 1 and 3 bosses, you have to cheese them in order to make them even somewhat tolerable. The stage 2 boss is alright, the stage 4 and 5 bosses are ones I never look forward to, and even the final boss feels like a bad alternate take on the final boss from the first Truxton/Tatsujin. Overall, it's just these seemingly small things that add up and hinder what should've been my favorite shmup experience. It feels rushed, and likely was rushed, considering Toaplan developed four shmups over the course of 1992, including Truxton II/Tatsujin Oh.

[ZPScissors]

Probably Tatsujin Oh at this point (or Truxton II I guess because that's the version I've spent almost all my time on)

Also worth mentioning, Batsugun. Many consider it to be the first bullet hell game, and it's still a good one.

And also worth mentioning, Hishouzame. The thing with this game is, I love it, but I can't explain why.

[FRO]

I haven't played a ton of Toaplan, but for my money, the Genesis version of Fire Shark is my favorite. Unlike the arcade version, which is apparently quite punishing, it has a nice, even difficult curve, and feels like it gets harder as you go along in a very organic fashion. It's not like some games where stage 1 is easy, stage 2 is a little hard, then stage 3 is suddenly an impenetrable wall. I do think that the need to gather as many "P" icons to power up as you do, it does make the game harder, because it takes a while to get fully powered up, so it's not like you can get to full power in stage 1, then blow through everything, and hope you don't take a stray bullet. You do really have to pay attention to the game, and know where stuff is coming from, but I feel like that's a decent compromise, and helps that version of the game feel more even. When M2 does their take on Same! Same! Same! I do hope they make a "MD/Genesis Arrange" mode, that takes the arcade game, and evens out the difficulty to be more like the home console version, because I would play that quite a bit, I think.

[cocoron]

1. Batsugun (Special)
2. Flying Shark / Hishozame
3. Slap Fight

These games have in my opinion the best sweetspots for motivation. I can play one game the whole weekend.

[Marc]

I don’t know about favourite, but based on a number of factors if you asked me which three I’m most hoping get ported it’d be:

1) Flying Shark
2) Slap Fight
3) Batsugun / Special

Flying Shark is both a great game and a huge piece of nostalgia for me – spent many a happy hour on the excellent Spectrum conversion. Played it quite recently in fact, and considering the hardware it’s not a bad interpretation at all.

Slap Fight was the recipient of another decent Spectrum translation, but our local arcade had this and I just remember being blown away at the amount of available weaponry, it seemed really unusual for a vert at the time. This is purely a nostalgic choice – I haven’t played it properly in decades (probably had a mess around when I first discovered MAME) and I’ve no idea if it holds up today. I’ve long been curious about the MD remix also, need to get it installed on my mini.

Batsugun was the only manic I came close to 1CC-ing and I haven’t played it since I sold off my Saturn collection some 20 years ago.

[Kobayashi]

Truxton for Sega Genesis.