16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

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Turrican
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Turrican »

Well, the missile animation is nice in Curse.

I wonder if these Micronet guys had an home computer background really. Curse does have that feel - the "Dave Jones making Menace" feeling. Like, guys just testing hardware capabilities, probably without any official manual to consult.

Edit: and indeed, this seems to be the case for both arguments, at least according to Sega Retro:

http://segaretro.org/Micronet

These guys for sure came from a microcomputer background. (Caesar no Yabou was already a good indicator of that). However:

http://segaretro.org/Raiden_Trad

Here it says that Micronet merely published a Raiden port handled by Seibu themselves (and at least the music credits "AKIRA" would suggest they're spot on).

Cool... Raiden Densetsu, officially a Seibu title. Who would have guessed.
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BIL
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by BIL »

That is some nice info :o

And honestly, yeah, it would totally explain things if Seibu themselves handled MD Raiden. It really is a lovely production to have around - rivals Toaplan's own best MD ports like Same Same at bringing out the MD's rugged arcade roots.

Poor SFC Raiden, tarred with the Micronics blight like a distressingly large number of other premiere arcade licenses. 3; One of the few developers I genuinely dislike. Port after port consigned to the kusopile. They must've charged some rock-bottom rates... thank god they didn't get their hands on any more than they did. Guess even incompetents have limits, of a sort.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Turrican »

Yet they fooled the whole world for twenty years or so disguising as Capcom's early FC efforts...
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by azmun »

Perikles wrote: Dragon Spirit

Platform(s) of port: PCE (HuCard)

Overview:...It is an eminent shame they messed it up at the last two minutes of the game. Before facing the final boss, there is a section with shifting spikes. In the arcade game, a tiny bit of caution is sufficient in order to get past this spot. They inexplicably botched the hit detection on the PCE, making it impossible to get through there unless you have a small dragon...

Résumé: I feel bad about saying it so harshly, but the final failure irrevocably ruins something in this game. Everything else is great, yes. Having to play over and over and over again because the very end of the game is such a sloppy mess drains a lot of the fun, simple as that. You should know what you're getting into before picking up this port, PCE Dragon Saber is certainly better for its consistency.
I've reached this point for the first time just yesterday (the farthest I've gotten after years of attempting a 1cc). I also just watched a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YT5Ckpqm5Q (starting at 28:33 mark) and it seems to contradict what you just explained. The guy cleared that section with one life bar and normal sized blue dragon. Care to revise your analysis?
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Ex_Mosquito »

The link you posted is tool-assisted, the channel ‘World of Longplays’ is plagued with them, it’s hard to find a replay on that channel that isn’t. I wouldn’t mind so much but they never say in the description that it is :/ They have an arcade Final Fight ‘longplay’ on their channel that clears the game without taking a single hit! I mean come on! And no mention of is being tool-assisted and people in the comments section are praising the players skill...

Check out this 2-ALL Dragon Blaze replay for some some comical undisclosed TAS dodging. https://youtu.be/FaEiqlUd6cs
Last edited by Ex_Mosquito on Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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azmun
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by azmun »

Ex_Mosquito wrote:The link you posted is tool-assisted, the channel ‘World if Longplays’ is plagued with them, it’s hard to find a replay on that channel that isn’t. I wouldn’t mind so much but they never say in the description that it is :/ They have an arcade Final Fight ‘longplay’ on their channel that clears the game without taking a single hit! I mean come on! And no mention of is being tool-assisted, and people in the comments section are praising the players skill...https://youtu.be/FaEiqlUd6cs
OK, thanks for pointing that out. Such a shame not to disclose. In any case, how does one distinguish between expert play and tool-assisted ones?
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Mero »

Seeing them flail about like they don't know what they're doing is a sure sign.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Perikles »

azmun wrote:The guy cleared that section with one life bar and normal sized blue dragon. Care to revise your analysis?
As Ex_Mosquito pointed out, most of the World of Longplay videos are entirely worthless when it comes to useful strategies (I will admit, however, that the guy who did the Metamor Jupiter video actually made an expedient discovery regarding the safespot on the final boss, I did apply that myself and it worked splendidly). Another great example when it comes to 16-bit games is Super E.D.F. Here's what the World of Longplay guy does on the true final boss. It's one gnarly flail after another which is miraculously enough to barely scrape by. Compare this to pegboy's run: all you have to do is select the right weapon prior to this stage. You probably will get hit once or twice no matter what, but the fight is over in seconds, meaning there is no real danger. There are even a few weapons you can pick in order to have this work, but the World of Longplay video shows the single most inefficient, incredulous way of handling this entire stage.

I'm not ruling out that there might be a way to somehow squeeze between the spikes with a normal-sized dragon, but I can say without a doubt that you're literally going to get shafted if you try to do it like in the video. I've lost numerous lives before finally getting to that section with a tiny dragon, simply because the hit detection is that awful. And if you get hit even once, you also lose speed which means the final boss (which is a lot harder here than he is in the arcade version) will be a veritable nightmare, too. By far the most viable way of getting past that stretch is to arrive as a measly Draco Parvulus instead of a splendorous Draco Nobilis, such are the vagaries of dialectic PCE gaming.

The Dragon Blaze video is sheer gold, by the way. :lol:
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by copy-paster »

Ex_Mosquito wrote:it’s hard to find a replay on that channel that isn’t.
Not all of the replays are done tool-assisted. For example the guy who did Crisis Force longplay claimed it was done real-time.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Sumez »

Ex_Mosquito wrote:The link you posted is tool-assisted, the channel ‘World of Longplays’ is plagued with them, it’s hard to find a replay on that channel that isn’t. I wouldn’t mind so much but they never say in the description that it is :/ They have an arcade Final Fight ‘longplay’ on their channel that clears the game without taking a single hit! I mean come on! And no mention of is being tool-assisted and people in the comments section are praising the players skill...
That stuff is so annoying. For such a popular game, it's surprisingly difficult to find a solid strategy for the final boss in Bubble Bobble anywhere on YouTube. Almost all videos featuring the fight are obviously using save states (although it's not immediately apparent) - you'll see guys standing right next to the guy as he fires his spread and still miraculously pass right through. At first I thought they knew of some sort of miraculous safespot, but after watching a few patterns it dawned on me that there's no way the player could have ever predicted being safe where they are standing.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Shepardus »

Sumez wrote:That stuff is so annoying. For such a popular game, it's surprisingly difficult to find a solid strategy for the final boss in Bubble Bobble anywhere on YouTube. Almost all videos featuring the fight are obviously using save states (although it's not immediately apparent) - you'll see guys standing right next to the guy as he fires his spread and still miraculously pass right through. At first I thought they knew of some sort of miraculous safespot, but after watching a few patterns it dawned on me that there's no way the player could have ever predicted being safe where they are standing.
ben shinobi's got several videos of the game on his channel, if you're interested.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Rupert H »

Shepardus wrote:
Sumez wrote:That stuff is so annoying. For such a popular game, it's surprisingly difficult to find a solid strategy for the final boss in Bubble Bobble anywhere on YouTube. Almost all videos featuring the fight are obviously using save states (although it's not immediately apparent) - you'll see guys standing right next to the guy as he fires his spread and still miraculously pass right through. At first I thought they knew of some sort of miraculous safespot, but after watching a few patterns it dawned on me that there's no way the player could have ever predicted being safe where they are standing.
ben shinobi's got several videos of the game on his channel, if you're interested.
I am very interested in this. Me and the wife are going for a 2P 1cc of Bubble Bobble and all I’ve ever found are unreplicatable TA runs. I’ve had my fingers crossed for an Awesome Game Replays episode focussed on it.


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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by wasilewski »

Thanks for this informative post. It’s an excellent point of reference.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Turrican »

Okay, after giving a little more thought on this... In the eternal debate Raiden PCE/MD, I'm not gonna forgive the total lack of shadows of the latter. He can't get away with that.

Sure, genny is gritty, it has punchy explosions and a decent effort at music.

But consider this: Komazawa: Within Seibu Kaihatsu, the theme for the Raiden series was “realism.” The way enemy ships fly, the way tanks fire, and so on…

And this: Kasai: All the designers at Seibu Kaihatsu take great care with shadows. It takes a lot of time but it ends up looking more realistic.

Consider the ROM size as well... In half the space the humble HuCard got the proper shadowing not just for your jet, but also for basically everything that floats up the air, powerups included.

Now boot your genny cart, proudingly boasting on cover "8MEG power" and keep in mind this is July '91... And go back to the October 1990 4meg Same!Same!Same! and you'll scream: where did they put all that ROM space in the game?

"Arcade accuracy" factor would remain in favor of the genny rendition... Surely with time we came to appreciate the side bar, or to better say, the effort to keep the proper aspect ratio. But then you see the game doesn't loop, and adds a stage, and thus even "accuracy" is a goner.

Goner for goner, I think Hudson was sensible to scale down things but retaining shadows on ground. Miss them and realism is compromised, and that was one of the main reasons to have these jets flying at such a low altitude to begin with. I mean, if your jet doesn't project a shadow on the ground (and we're talking 1990 Raiden jet, not 1982 Solvalou) you might as well go play some Galaga. :?

p.s. of course both ports have the major flaw to omit, more than simultaneous 2p, the presence of the blue jet and its properties. But let's condone that due to the very early time of release (lack of sensibility back then).
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by gameoverDude »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EUUtrQu1Uk
Just found a nice comparison video of Raiden by VCDecide. Both versions have their good parts- shadows on TG-16, nicer boss explosions & parallax on Genesis. TG-16's is 6 Meg. Raiden's Genesis ROM has plenty of unused space in that 8 Meg according to fusaru, who did an improved tile/sprite/palette hack to make it look more like the arcade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzQlrEiGDO4
This one shows the Genesis game with the above hack applied. Sorry, no shadows, but still an improvement.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Turrican »

gameoverDude wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzQlrEiGDO4
This one shows the Genesis game with the above hack applied. Sorry, no shadows, but still an improvement.
A nice hack for sure, that sadly underlines how better this could have been within the same memory constraints. I think it's easy to be lenient on this rather average MD port because it shares the name with an absolutely godawful snes cartridge. :x In comparison to that, it's pure gold.
Despatche wrote:Good thread. I was kinda hoping for a writeup on Wonder Boy III actually, very curious about that game.
http://retro-sanctuary.com/Comparisons- ... -Lair.html

With lots of stages missing, and terrible slowdown plaguing the 2p simultaneous mode, I'd say the HuCard easily wins this match.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Despatche »

The PC Engine Monster Lair was on CD, not HuCard. There was a string of big-deal arcade conversions from various developers for CD, some more accurate than others. The MD version is also arguably a remake. I can't really trust that writeup because "retro enthusiasts" tend to deprioritize actual gameplay.

Some other things:

I'm curious if those problem parts of Dragon Spirit PCE are based on the first arcade version...

I have a running theory that Daisenpu Custom was actually developed first, and the card version was derived from that. Really just a theory, though...

Darius Plus is actually better than Super because it fixes a strange bug where any enemies destroyed by the Wave do not reward points.

Saint Dragon is strange... it seems that it was simply unfinished. The first half of the game is a good build-up, but the second half is trash.

The port of the original Slap Fight also removes the timer on the shield, which makes it a fairly different game.

The arcade Area 88 deserves more respect. U.S. Navy is also important.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by BIL »

Despatche wrote:The port of the original Slap Fight also removes the timer on the shield, which makes it a fairly different game.
Worth noting - the timer can be reinstated in Slap Fight MD (both Normal and Special games) via "Toaplan Mode," which also allows a starting loop select. I was glad! Balance aside, the shield's beeping gets annoying over long periods. Would rather just die tbh.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by DialKnight »

BIL wrote:
Despatche wrote:The port of the original Slap Fight also removes the timer on the shield, which makes it a fairly different game.
Worth noting - the timer can be reinstated in Slap Fight MD (both Normal and Special games) via "Toaplan Mode," which also allows a starting loop select. I was glad! Balance aside, the shield's beeping gets annoying over long periods. Would rather just die tbh.
Slap Fight MD has got to be one of the most robust STGs on that system, and a personal favorite. I dig this thread.
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Re: 16-Bit Arcade Port Archaeology

Post by Turrican »

Despatche wrote:The PC Engine Monster Lair was on CD, not HuCard. There was a string of big-deal arcade conversions from various developers for CD, some more accurate than others. The MD version is also arguably a remake. I can't really trust that writeup because "retro enthusiasts" tend to deprioritize actual gameplay.
Right, CD, my bad. Atrocious 2P slowdown is reported also here, though. The stages thing should be analyzed in depth: if they just cut stages off, it can hardly pass as "remake" - being stripped of things without getting anything in return. :(
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