Petition: Toinclude Tempest among Shmups.

[sffan]

In my opinion and definition, A shmup must have a scrolling background playfield, thats scrolls on/off the visible screen, and that in some way affects the gameplay.

Therefore, Tempest is not a shmup.

Neither is Galaga, Sapce Invaders etc. They are SINGLE SCREEN 2d shooting games, but they are not shmups.

...in your opinion.

Several times when friends have seen me play Espgaluda or some other modern shmup, they say, "That's kinda like Space Invaders." And of course they are right.

Galaga is a modified Space Invaders.
DonPachi is a modified Space Invaders.

Every horizontal shmup is a modified Scramble.

If you take a basic concept and add things, like different axes of movement, different graphic styles & scoring features, you don't create a new genre. IT IS THE SAME GENRE.

Duh.

[99pence]

If Metal Slug is a shmup then so is Ghouls 'N' Ghosts.


I say everyone should forget about it before you all end up like a bloody quackcandle.

[BrianC]

If Metal Slug is a shmup then so is Ghouls 'N' Ghosts.


I say everyone should forget about it before you all end up like a bloody quackcandle.

Shmup or not, Metal Slug is more focused on shooting than Ghouls 'n Ghosts. Smash TV and Robotron are also non-stop shooting. Doom is more of a mix of shooting and exploration. I don't care if these games are shmups or not, but I do care that games that are really quite different are being lumped togeather in the same category.

[Leeram]

Good Point, athough I would consider it more of a platformer, but still a shoot-em-up none the less, dare I say.. a Hybrid.

My main thrust though is that the title of the list should be changed to avoid confusion as it is clearly the intent that 3d games are out of it.

No disrespect but I must admit that I couldn't fathom how a "2D shooting game" was not a shmup!

It all goes back to basics, the term shoot-em-up (which shmups is derived from, I think even in the same magazine ZZap64, but I might be wrong on that one) was around way before modern behemoths like DDPachi or Garegga and referred to any game where the basic idea was to shoot stuff.

It is the later games that fall into the the original classification with the earlier games that already exist. One wouldn't normally run with the logic that Space Invaders is a shoot 'em up for 20 years but then de-classify it when DDpachi comes out. That doesn't make sense but is exactly what some people here seem to be trying to do. They seem to trying to distill the original term to mean something different, something purer almost, by adding their own view as to what a shmups is or is not.

But what they are actually doing is trying to elevate sub genres to be the actual, more general, definition of a genre. Space Invaders, Tempest etc are all shoot-em-ups, they always have been and always will be. They are as much a shmup as DDpachi is, in fact they have been shmups for longer!. What some people misunderstand is that the sub genre explains what they mean perfectly, they don't need to elevate it to some purer state because the sub genre is already purer than the general genre.

For instance DDPachi is a Vertical Scroller, by saying so you automatically make its definition purer; it is a shoot-em-up but it has to have a vertically scrolling background. You don't need to change the definition of a shoot-em-up so that a shoot-em-up has to have a vert scrolling background, if you do that you de-classify every other shoot-em-up that doesn't have a vert scroll. So you suddenly have to change the definition to include hori scrollers because, obviously, they are shmups too. But then all of a sudden you have de-classified Space Invaders from being a shmup because it doesn't have a vert or hori scroll! So what is Space Invaders after all those changes? oh yes, a 2d shooting game!

The term "shoot up" is in the dictionary (Pocket Oxford Dictionary): it means "terrorize with indiscriminate shooting" (ok so "shoot up" is not shoot-em-up, but I could, and will, argue that one could say "i want to shoot up", then someone else could say "shoot what up?" then I could say "shoot them up!". So as long as the game involves indiscriminate shooting then surely it is a shoot-em-up game.

Where's Julian Rignall when you need him?

There is a way out of all this, and that is to have a vote, agree what the general term should mean (not in the context of top 25 lists but in the context of all game genres) then apply to the Dictionary to have it added! Once it's added to the dictionary then no-one can argue with it! (Well they could if they wanted to I suppose, it's a free country).

Cheers

Leeram

[Turrican]

My thoughts exactly. You'll never define what a shmup is. The good thing: You don't ever have to, as for the cause of this site Malc's and the mods' opinions are all that matters.

Opinions can change. That's the point of discussion, that's why we're all here on the forum, to discuss.

[99pence]

If Metal Slug is a shmup then so is Ghouls 'N' Ghosts.


I say everyone should forget about it before you all end up like a bloody quackcandle.

Shmup or not, Metal Slug is more focused on shooting than Ghouls 'n Ghosts.

So Metal Slug is a shmup because its got more bullets than Ghouls 'N' Ghosts. So Progear is more of a shmup than R-Type. Maybe R-Type isn't a shooter at all.


I really shouldn't get involved with stupid pointless arguements on the net. I might go and bake a cake or something. Maybe some muffins. Wait is that a cake? Damn I really need to know what type of cake it is before I eat it.

[raiden]

Opinions can change. That's the point of discussion, that's why we're all here on the forum, to discuss.

you´re right about that. I´ve given the topic some thought throughout this day, and I think for the purpose of this vote the historical aspect is too important to ignore it. The list is called "top 25 shmups OF ALL TIME". For the term to make sense, "top" has to include "influential" in its meaning, because if it only means timeless quality, those proto-shmups couldn´t compare anyway.
This may differ from what my personal meaning of the term "shmups" is, but in the context of such a vote, the historical context makes a lot of sense.
Still, I see the problem of possible escalation as something very real. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, a very clear line. And I think most people here will agree that 3d gameplay is not our focus of interest in this board, so for practical reasons, it still makes sense to leave Tempest out, just to make sure. Because Tempest will lead to Space Harrier, Space Harrier will lead to Panzer Dragoon, and Panzer Dragoon will lead to Quake.
Let´s try another perspective: has Tempest been important for the evolution of the genre? I think it´s safe to answer that with a "No". There were a few offsprings, some games inspired by Tempest, but it hasn´t really created a subgenre of its own. It´s basically a dead branch, compared to other branches (the "scrolling" ones, for instance). So it doesn´t really need to be in this vote.

[Turrican]

The reason this debate is even happening is because people who have no foundation in the classic years, are attempting to redefine what we old people /know/ a shmup is instinctively. You can't blame them for this, but theyre attempting to define the genre by what they grew up with.

Then you should be annoyed that as things are now, you aren't allowed to vote Tempest as one of 25 best shmups. You /know/ it is by instinct, why don't you try to convince the others as well, instead of saying definitions are a waste? Fight for what you believe in!

The trick is - we don't /NEED/ to define them if everyone just uses their common sense. This could be avoided in future by not explicity banning anything at all, and the person counting the results (or people for a fairer attempt), simply discounting games that common sense dictate don't belong. It's never going to be a precise science anyway.

A final thought. What is a tree? There are hundreds of types of tree, yet they are all still trees. A Bonsai tree is still a tree too. Where does a large bush end and a tree begin? Obvious madness, but that's what's going on here.

bloodflowers... I think you're wrong. You posted a lot trying to explain that the search of a definition is futile. In your opinion, a shmup is easily recognized by anyone who has enough experience, thanks to "common sense".

Now, common sense tells you Tempest is a shmup, but you can't even start to explain why... You don't have to, there's "common sense".

Now, that's exactly why some people think a definition is important. I agree with you it's not a matter of precise science, but why don't even give it a try, huh? Besides, if you or Herr Schatten think writing about this topic is a total waste, why you do?

The funny fact is, I don't want to be the defender of science, reason and definitions. I was just pointing out that, according to the actual definition, to have Galaga "in" and Gyruss "out" is weird.

Besides, the common sense is not so common, as reading this thread suggests.

[Turrican]

Still, I see the problem of possible escalation as something very real. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, a very clear line. And I think most people here will agree that 3d gameplay is not our focus of interest in this board, so for practical reasons, it still makes sense to leave Tempest out, just to make sure. Because Tempest will lead to Space Harrier, Space Harrier will lead to Panzer Dragoon, and Panzer Dragoon will lead to Quake.

Yeah, that's what bugs me the most. You or Cmoon, you see Gyruss' inclusion couldn't harm shmups in any way... But you're scared that it will eventually led to, let's say, Monkey Ball or Tetris inclusion among shmups.

Once again, Tempest gameplay has nothing to do with 3D. if we leave it out because we're afraid of Space Harrier, we can do this, but it's quite an irrational fear.

However, I understand the danger is something real: when leeram posts that Ghouls'n Ghosts is a shmup I feel like my efforts are turned to the evil side of the Force

[Leeram]

Stupid and pointless to you, maybe, but to me it's about us older gamers who remember when the term was actually first used putting the younger pups back in their place (because we were the ones that first used it and know exactly what it means, and at the time there was nothing other than "proto" shmups, God knows where the term proto-shmups came from, what on earth does that mean anyway). Bloody youngsters trying to upset the apple cart all the time, why can't you just leave things the way the are.

Speaking of apples, we don't de-classify green apples just because there are red ones. Green apples don't suddenly become proto-apples. They are all apples. Except for when the French invaded and changed the meaning of the word apple, but hey, that's the French for you , buggering up our language.

It's not just about shoot 'em ups, it's about the harmony of the whole human race. Where will it end, first shoot 'em ups, then apples, then grapefruits, then shoes; "it is not a shoe, it is a sandle!". Then it will be that the Earth isn't a planet; it's just a blob of rock in space with some water on it, a proto-planet if you will. Let's not forgot the universe and multiverse getting de-classified to proto-verses when the multitudinalverse comes along.

No, it's not stupid and pointless, the fate of mankind depends on it!

Cheers

leeram

PS. Speaking of Mankind, God didn't see fit de-classify man to "proto-man" when he/she/it invented woman. If it's good enough for the big fella then it's good enough for me; or it would be if I believed in it/him/her which I don't. I don't not believe in God either just before anyone levels that old chestnut at me again.

[Leeram]

Turrican, I think I explained Ghouls and Ghosts as a Hybrid.

I agree with your thoughts, as it happens. It is the fear of these other genres that may or may not be shmups that gets other games, which quite obviously are shmups excluded.

And that is because the list is using the general term shmup which includes all those wierd and whacky fellas. So the matter can quite simply and easily be sorted by changing the title of the list (or it's description) to include sub genres.

Maybe something like "you can only vote for Vert and Hori scrolling shoot 'em ups" might work.

Cheers

Leeram

[sffan]

A model T Ford isn't a car because it's too slow, no a/c, blah blah.

An Apple II pc (remember those?) isn't a computer because it has no USB ports, can't run Windows XP, blah blah.

The movie "Jaws" doesn't have special effects because they are not computer-generated.

Space Invaders is not a shmup because it has no power-ups.

> All ridiculous statements.

As far as Tempest? It's just Tempest. Everyone knows what it is.

[BrianC]

If Metal Slug is a shmup then so is Ghouls 'N' Ghosts.


I say everyone should forget about it before you all end up like a bloody quackcandle.

Shmup or not, Metal Slug is more focused on shooting than Ghouls 'n Ghosts.

So Metal Slug is a shmup because its got more bullets than Ghouls 'N' Ghosts. So Progear is more of a shmup than R-Type. Maybe R-Type isn't a shooter at all.

I really shouldn't get involved with stupid pointless arguements on the net. I might go and bake a cake or something. Maybe some muffins. Wait is that a cake? Damn I really need to know what type of cake it is before I eat it.

Maybe you shouldn't. I didn't say that Metal Slug is a shmup. I was trying to point out that your argument about Ghouls 'n Ghosts being a shmup if Metal Slug was a shmup was weak. Sheesh, I even said that I was not saying that Metal Slug was a shmup and I get another post aruging with me. It was pointless for you to try and prove so and so game was not a shmup becuase you totally missed my point.

Honestly, the Mega Man games play more like Metal Slug than Ghouls 'n Ghosts and they aren't shmups either. IMO, using Ghouls 'n Ghosts, a game more focused on platform challenges than shooting action in comparison to Metal Slug, which plays and feels quite a bit different was weak. Again, I never once said that Metal Slug was a shmup.

Sheesh, this is getting rather stupid. I said something really simple and I get ignored with a pointless argument thrown at me. Sheesh, nobody even answered my question about Total Carnage, a very hard game to define.

[dboeren]

OK, as the discussion unfolds I see the issue emerging.

Shmups come in many forms, and have changed throughout time as the ideas became more refined. In the early days, there was a lot of experimentation. Wierd forms of shooting were tried. Some flourished and produced a thousand spinoffs. Some withered and died, though not without making a significant impact.

The core truth is that shmups are about shooting. If a game has SOME shooting, but it's mostly about something else, then it's not a shmup to me. Elevator Action lets you shoot enemy spies, but it's clearly not a shmup. If I had to classify it, it belongs with platform games.

We've got one camp that says that shmups should be interpreted broadly, and split into internal sub-categories like vertical-scrollers, horizontal, tube, and so on. Perhaps a shmup is in only one category, perhaps you can put it in more than one category.

Another camp says to keep the term "shmup" narrowly focused, and prune out branches that stray too far from the trunk. They fear that Quake or House of the Dead will one day be considered a shmup. Actually, these are already the first games normal people think of when I tell them I am into shooting videogames.

I think there is a distinction between a shmup and a game which is mainly shooting. Doom or Pang/Buster Brothers are mainly about shooting things, but don't qualify as shmups to me.

Here's my lame-ass attempt at extracting what makes a game shmuppy:
1. Your main goal is to shoot stuff and stay alive. Anything else you do (picking up powerups) is done only to aid you in these two goals. Gaining points may be considered an optional 3rd goal.

2. Things shoot back at you or otherwise actively seek your death. A shmup may occasionally have a brief phase where you are negotiating asteroids or something, but during most of the game things shoot back at you or try to crash into you.

3. You are forced to keep going. A game like Doom fails this criteria because if you want you can pretty much sit there and nothing will happen. A shmup keeps throwing death at you until some of it sticks. There may be a brief pause between levels or such, but fate comes to you, not you to it.

That's all I could come up with. I started to add stuff about 2D gameplay, but it turns out it was unnecessary. Tenet #3 takes care of the FPS games (run & gun too) so I left it out. According to these definitions, here are some popular borderliners and how they stack up:

1. Tempest - OK. You shoot stuff for a living, they shoot you, you can't stop.

2. Robotron - OK. You shoot stuff, they swarm you (aimed movement with their bodies, not mindless movement), you can't stop.

3. Asteroids - Fail. You shoot and dodge, but except for the occasional flying saucer the game is not actively seeking your death. Closer cousin to modern puzzle games than we want to admit.

4. Metal Slug - Fail. Like most run & guns, the game does not keep throwing death at you. You can choose to sit and wait with little ill effect.

5. Quake - Fail. FPS games generally fall in the same trap as their close cousins, the run & gun games. They put you in charge of game flow.

6. Space Invaders - OK. This one barely squeaks by. The bullets are mostly mindless, but your presence underneath an alien does trigger them and the volume of fire generates sufficient hostility to your life.

7. Space Harrier - Unknown. I haven't played it, perhaps someone can comment on this one.

8. Zaxxon - OK. Forced to move forward while things try to kill you.

9. Galaga - OK, see Space Invaders.

I'm sure this is not perfect, but I'd love to see some comments. I like the simplicity, there is nothing about scrolling, bosses, powerups, 2D, X vs XY movement, or any of that stuff. Just small and simple. Only #1 kind of bugs me because it implies a bit of a judgement call.

[Leeram]

I like it, nice and simple, covers most scenarios I can think of. Space Harrier would be shoot 'em up though in your system, as would G-Loc/afterburner/Starfox style games. But that's all good to me, because I think that they are shoot 'em ups, just in 3D.

Cheers

Leeram

PS. If you haven't played Space Harrier then you need to! Only in the arcades though because the cabinets have that big whomping stick to thrash about. ooo eer missus.

[sffan]

I like it too, although Time Pilot fails. You can just stay on a level while dodging and collecting parachute guys, therefore it's not forced movement.

Sinistar only fails if you are able to prevent Him from being built. Otherwise it passes, since if He appears then you must kill him to survive, which puts you in the next level.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I'VE GOT IT!!! Yes, I finally got it.

A great idea...
Lets just change the name of this website to
"SpaceGames.com"!!!!!

Yea, we can all call them "Space Games" again. Even "Shooting Games" will be allowed under the new rule.

[Turrican]

LOL, just to have someone starting a thread:

"is Dragon Spirit a SpaceGame?"

Seriously... the thing has gotten a bit off my hands.

There are too many people who are unaware of the definition of shmup as Nullstar made it time ago. And they just go with the sound of the word: shmup = Shoot them up. Since almost in every game you shoot something, 99% of the games out there are shmups. This is going all wrong, I was not suggesting anything like this.

[BrianC]

I think it's a good idea to end this discussion. Some arguments were rather silly (Tempest has jumping. If this game is a shmup, than the other game is a shmup too). I even got jumped on for trying to point out that Metal Slug is different from Ghouls 'n Ghosts (and someone assumed that I was trying to prove Metal Slug was a shmup, despite me never calling it a shmup). This is a no win situation and, honestly, I don't really care which game are shmups and which ones are not.

[Turrican]

Let´s try another perspective: has Tempest been important for the evolution of the genre? I think it´s safe to answer that with a "No". There were a few offsprings, some games inspired by Tempest, but it hasn´t really created a subgenre of its own. It´s basically a dead branch, compared to other branches (the "scrolling" ones, for instance). So it doesn´t really need to be in this vote.

This is a slight misleading perspective: I'm not talking of Tempest because it's widely known as a masterwork, nor for its quality.
I think a similar doubt should come even if we were speaking of an obscure game. Regardless of their legacy, or how many important titles they spawned. As I wrote before, I wouldn't even include it in my 25. But it's not these quality that do a shmup.

I mean, I just want to see these tube games included in the genre they belong to. But not because one or more of these titles have been "important" in the past, or because they generated a bunch of clones. Just because unlike Rez, Contra, PD Orta, Space Harrier, The Secret of Monkey Island or Doom, these tube shmups already have a gameplay and a structure that is defined as Nullstar says. They just have a different perspective, but again horiz have a different perspective than verts, and no one even dreams to esclude them from a ranking. If I describe Gradius I talk of a horizontal shmup; for Gyruss is a tube shmup. It's really that simple.

[Turrican]

I think it's a good idea to end this discussion. Some arguments were rather silly (Tempest has jumping. If this game is a shmup, than the other game is a shmup too). I even got jumped on for trying to point out that Metal Slug is different from Ghouls 'n Ghosts (and someone assumed that I was trying to prove Metal Slug was a shmup, despite me never calling it a shmup). This is a no win situation and, honestly, I don't really care which game are shmups and which ones are not.

Some of the arguments were rather silly, but I thought some were quite valid stuff and I do care.

[CMoon]

I think all of this gives good evidence why we need a good definition for what we are talking about here, whether we call it a shmup or not.

I am still happy with the idea of:

"A 2D game with forced scrolling where a player controls a small ship/character with complete freedom along an x-y plane. The goal of said game is to shoot incoming enemies while dodging their fire."

This is pretty much the same thing you've all heard before, and it isn't to berate any variations that deviate from this. But rather to simply restrict what we talk about here. There are honestly ENOUGH games that DO fit this description plus a fantastic off-topic forum, I really don't see what the problem is. Rather, I see this more like a system for filing papers than a judgment call. Topics for the main forum have to be shorter than this sign to ride.