Petition: Toinclude Tempest among Shmups.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Actually, out of all those "classic / Proto" shmups, the only one that could be a "true" shmup would be Vangaurd, as it featured "forced" scrolling, powerups, and a final boss...the GOND!
So, when you think about it, maybe Vangaurd influenced the design of LifeForce, since both feature side as well as vertical stages.

[BrianC]

Actually, out of all those "classic / Proto" shmups, the only one that could be a "true" shmup would be Vangaurd, as it featured "forced" scrolling, powerups, and a final boss...the GOND!
So, when you think about it, maybe Vangaurd influenced the design of LifeForce, since both feature side as well as vertical stages.

Xevious, Scramble, and Super Cobra feature forced scrolling and a boss, but they don't count? I do think the defination of shmup is messed up. Since when did a game need powerups to be a shmup? Even some modern shmups, which everyone is fine with calling shmups, don't have powerups.

Even if you don't count Galaga, Galaxian, River Raid, etc (which I think should be counted), I think Xevious should at least be counted. It was not only one of the first scrolling shmups, but it was one of the first to have rank too. I also think Scramble and Super Cobra should be counted.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I never knew those others had "bosses".
I think they're all pretty much shmups, but I meant "true shmup" in the way "shmups" are defined here at this site.

I agree with Bloodflowers.
There should be a difference between shmups and "shooting games" though.
Shooting games can be shmups, and are often refered to as such in Japan.
However, games like Contra and Metal Slug are often called shooting games too, but I prefer to call those Run n Guns.
It gets even more confusing, because nowadays, even the likes of Halo and Medal of Honor are called "shooters". (which have no right to be)
The again, you shoot...either with a ship/plane/person/etc.

Let the breakdown begin!!
There exsist too many sub genre's now, you have to be able to differentiate them some how.

"No not like Quake", is even too vague.

[BrianC]

I never knew those others had "bosses".
I think they're all pretty much shmups, but I meant "true shmup" in the way "shmups" are defined here at this site.

So how is Xevious not a true shmup? It doesn't have power ups, but it has forced scrolling, an end level boss, and a ranking system. If Castle Shikigami 2 and Psyvariar can be considered "true shmups", why not Xevious?

[alpha5099]

I haven't read through this whole topic (I feel like shit right, I'm gonna try and go to bed soon), so I'm just going to blindly throw in my 2 cents, knowing that more likely than not anything I will say has already been said:

I think this whole controversy could have been avoided by banning all proto-shmups. I love Galaga as much as the next guy, but if I had designed the rules, I would been deemed it not a shmup. Including Space Invader type games just opens the door for all sorts of other borderliners, especially a lot of these games occupying major grey areas.

Is Fantasy Zone a shmup? What about In The Hunt? I think so, but someone could easily argue against them, over some sort of scrolling bullshit notion. And what happens if we do succeed in allowing Tempest and Gyruss? Suddenly every borderliner will have a special interest group rallying for it. Before long, they'll be coming out of the wood work, explaining how Space Harrier is really nothing more than the next logical step for a tube shooter. How Metal Slug is completely deserving of the shmup distinction.

My solution: just fucking start a Top XX Borderliners topic, either in the main forum or Off Topic. Maybe do it less formally, just simple Top 10 (or whatever) lists. I think pretty much everyone here enjoys borderliners, no one is really so snobbish as to thumb their nose at games so closely related to the shmup genre. We could even have mini distinctions, the Top 3 Rail Shooters or Proto-Shmups or Tube Shooters or Run'n'Guns. Just end this innane squabbingly.

You love Tempest (you had better, I'll hunt you down if your just playing Devil's Advocate). Fine. Shout it from the mountain top. Is it the end of the world if Tempest doesn't make the Top 25 List over some asinine technicality? Does that diminish its greatness? Fuck no.

[system11]

Actually, out of all those "classic / Proto" shmups, the only one that could be a "true" shmup would be Vangaurd, as it featured "forced" scrolling, powerups, and a final boss...the GOND!
So, when you think about it, maybe Vangaurd influenced the design of LifeForce, since both feature side as well as vertical stages.

Xevious, Scramble, and Super Cobra feature forced scrolling and a boss, but they don't count? I do think the defination of shmup is messed up. Since when did a game need powerups to be a shmup? Even some modern shmups, which everyone is fine with calling shmups, don't have powerups.

I'm going to piss a whole load of people off here, but hey - what can you do?

The reason this debate is even happening is because people who have no foundation in the classic years, are attempting to redefine what we old people /know/ a shmup is instinctively. You can't blame them for this, but theyre attempting to define the genre by what they grew up with.

If this sounds elitist, maybe it is - such is life as they say. Get off my lawn you whippersnappers! Where's my cane!?

[sffan]

I'm going to piss a whole load of people off here, but hey - what can you do?

The reason this debate is even happening is because people who have no foundation in the classic years, are attempting to redefine what we old people /know/ a shmup is instinctively. You can't blame them for this, but theyre attempting to define the genre by what they grew up with.

If this sounds elitist, maybe it is - such is life as they say. Get off my lawn you whippersnappers! Where's my cane!?

I think you hit the nail on the head here, man. Every shmup is just a modified version of Space Invaders, after all.

[Shatterhand]

I have to completely agree with Bloodflowers.

I don't want to offend or piss anyone, but I've noticed this here for sometime. Lots of people seems to have begun playing in the SNES era (if not in the PSX era)... of course, they can't be "blamed" for this (After all, there's nothing wrong with that ), but this lends to people completely denying of the era(s) that came before.

Tempest, Gyruss, Galaga, Space Invadrers, Phoenix, Demon Attack... I'd call of them shmups. I'd call even Time Pilot a shmup. The only ones I am not sure if are shmups or not are the Asteroids games alike.. but even those, if someone said it's a shmup, I would never jump at their throat, telling them to shut up because they are stupid or something . For the 25 best shmups, I'd take them too.

[Ganelon]

Perhaps... Anybody else can't stand the borderliner classics? I've always despised games like Space Invaders, Asteroids, Tempest. I for one couldn't bring myself to relate such boring games with the shmups I love, even if they inspired modern shmups. To me, they're just pre-evolved forms of shmups, neanderthals compared to homo sapiens so to say. 2 axes with no wrapping (no Tempest) and forced scrolling (no Space Invaders, no Asteroids, no In the Hunt, no run 'n guns) are my simple credo for determining shmups.

And yeah, I started playing in 1990 on the PC, arcade, NES, and Turbo so that didn't help much. Then again, I really enjoyed playing Super Mario Bros. and Adventure Island at the time so I don't think the "no exposure to classics" reasoning explains much.

On technical terms, the only weird decision I can see is the wrapping issue. After all, if you were playing Zanac and if you were wrapped to the left side of the screen if you kept going right, then the game would entirely resemble Gyruss. Only that minor wrapping issue (which no "average" shmup ever has) and a "3D" perspective (which is certainly allowed since nobody questions stuff like Star Soldier Vanishing Earth, Planet Joker, and Raystorm) keeps Tempest from being widely accepted as a shmup. I'm not entirely comfortable with banning wrapping since if a game played exactly like Donpachi except that it wrapped objects on the sides of the screen to the other side, I'd be hard pressed to deny an otherwise obvious shmup.

[CMoon]

The reason this debate is even happening is because people who have no foundation in the classic years, are attempting to redefine what we old people /know/ a shmup is instinctively.

Yes, you are right. You are going to piss a whole lot of people off.

No, you're wrong. I played one of the very first arcade games, 'gunfight' or whatever the hell it was called when it first came out. I'm not lacking any credentials in classic arcade awareness.

The REASON this debate is occuring is because we don't want every run'n'gun game to be on here. Honestly, this isn't about tempest, it isn't about galaga and it isn't about xevious (I never would have even thought about saying it wasn't a shmup because it lacked bosses !!!???)

The reason some of us are touchy on the definitions is every so often, someone comes along and tells us we need to change our ways because we aren't talking about Metal Slug and that metal slug is a shmup. The problem is, we all do know what a shmup is, but without a stricter definition, we lack any way of explaining that contra isn't a shmup.

Maybe you think Contra is a shmup but it makes the area of focus too broad. And then what about rail shooters, and first person shooters?

If you really understand what this argument is about you must know it isn't about tempest.

Please, as an experiment, start a thread on Space Invaders and see if the mods move it to off topic. I'm sure you will find that it is safe.

[system11]

The reason this debate is even happening is because people who have no foundation in the classic years, are attempting to redefine what we old people /know/ a shmup is instinctively.

The REASON this debate is occuring is because we don't want every run'n'gun game to be on here. Honestly, this isn't about tempest, it isn't about galaga and it isn't about xevious (I never would have even thought about saying it wasn't a shmup because it lacked bosses !!!???)

The whole thread started because of Tempest dude, read it from the beginning. Obviously run-n-guns don't belong in the shmups voting, it's basic common sense.

If you really understand what this argument is about you must know it isn't about tempest.

Again, check the initial post, and the voting guidelines - it was very much sparked by ruling out classic shmups, hence my posts referring to them - I think we're all clever enough to weed out the replies concerning run n guns.

The trick is - we don't /NEED/ to define them if everyone just uses their common sense. This could be avoided in future by not explicity banning anything at all, and the person counting the results (or people for a fairer attempt), simply discounting games that common sense dictate don't belong. It's never going to be a precise science anyway.

A final thought. What is a tree? There are hundreds of types of tree, yet they are all still trees. A Bonsai tree is still a tree too. Where does a large bush end and a tree begin? Obvious madness, but that's what's going on here.

This is very much a discussion that has swallowed a bomb, and given the detonator to a monkey (and a shameless misquote).

[nullstar]

Turrican: I'll trying as best I can to stay within the contraint I placed previously:
- This discussion is interesting to me because it doesn't gel with my previous belief -- namely, that people saw the perspective used in Tempest as what sets it apart. Those that have expressed an opinion today seem to agree that the perspective (beyond 3rd person) isn't what matters -- it's either: (A) single-axis of movement doesn't matter or (B) single axis of movement does matter. Granted, this is a small sample of the members so could be wildly inaccurate, but it's the determining factor for me personally. (Of course, this is a separate question from what the site admins think, but I think I explained that in the other thread.)

Basically, if perspective matters to most people, I say Tempest et al are truly borderliners -- very similar, but different in some fundamental way than a shmup. In other words, Tempest was the start of a sibling genre.

If perspective doesn't matter to most people, then I say Tempest is just another game in the single-axis-of-movement genre of 2D, 3rd-person shooters, making it a proto-shmup in my book[1], and belonging wherever the site admins choose to place such games. Since they are placed in shmups chat currently, that is where I would also place tube shooters (which I would start calling "tube shmups" because that's the kind of corporate-minded guy I am).


[1] When I say proto-shmup, I mean (more or less) a 2D, 3rd-person shooter in which the player is constrained to one axis of movement. This doesn't mean I don't like a lot of those games Twitch listed -- some of them I like very much, and some (like Vanguard) are no question what I call for sake of this site's convenience, a "shmup." Most of them only offer one degree of movement, so I say proto-shmup for them.

That said, I'm firmly in the camp that believes the X vs. XY movement was *the* evolutionary leap that differentiates between stuff like Galaga from Gradius, regardless of stuff like scrolling screens, bosses, distinct levels, "advanced" weapons, forced vs autoscrolling, etc. Did anyone else here play Space Raiders? It's abysmal. You can add a lot of the features that came to be found in the 194X series, Gradius, R-Type, Raiden, etc. back onto the single-axis games, but that lack of 2D movement just makes those games excruciatingly frustrating and unenjoyable. I don't think there's been any evolution of the shooting genre before or since that has been as significant -- except the leap to 1st-person, 3D shooters, another shootemup (AKA shmup, eh?) genre which I have almost no interest in. But that doesn't mean I dislike FPSs merely because they're "new". (And, yes, feel free to point out that Wolfenstein is really 2D -- just Time Pilot from a first-person perspective -- was just trying to save myself a bit of typing there.) If you want to argue that we ought to find a new name for 2D, XY, 3rd person shmups, OK, but I'd like to know what you'd call them to distinguish from the X-only variety. Male shmups? ultrashmups? :)

Anyway, Turrican, I think this thread makes clear why this issue is so difficult to address. As I think I stated originally, my determination of what was considered a borderliner for the top 25 vote is based on my understanding of what the site admins (i.e. Malc and Akira) have previously decreed borderliners vs. permitted in shmups chat (which, as stated, includes Space Invaders and such, but not Tempest and such). Unless and until that changes, I can (and do) spout my opinion but I still observe their guidelines when trying to lay down the boundaries what can be voted on or not...at least for the one vote I take time to run once a year.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Well, I'm about as "old school" as one could get.
I remember back in the days when my friends and myself would refer to games like Defender,Missile Command, Gorf, Scramble,Phoenix,Asteriods,Space Invaders,Demon Attack,MegaMania as "Space Games". This was back in the late 70's early 80's.
The term "shoot-em-up" wasen't phrased until the 8 bit NES and 16 bit days. Yea, we still refered to Gradius as a "space game". I never heard the shorthand term "Shmups" until I found this website, but yet I knew what "shooters" and shootemups were.
I could also tell the difference between say Gradius and Contra.

Its actually hard to describe what types of games I play to other people...I say shooters, they think Halo,Grand Theft Auto, etc. I say no, older classic style games like Galaga...but newer. Then I mention the names...DanGun Feveron, DoDonPachi, and they gimme that, "Jeeze, what the fuck is this guy rambling on about...HE'S SPEAKING IN TONGUES!!! They think I'm from another Planet...and they're right. Japlanet!

BTW: I do enjoy those "other" types as well. e.i Halo, Grand Theft Auto, etc, etc.
But I refer to those as "FPS" and "action adventure" respectively.

[system11]

That said, I'm firmly in the camp that believes the X vs. XY movement was *the* evolutionary leap that differentiates between stuff like Galaga from Gradius, regardless of stuff like scrolling screens, bosses, distinct levels, "advanced" weapons, forced vs autoscrolling, etc.

How about Gaplus? It has XY axis movement but is just another sequel to Galaga, and plays almost the same.

How much longer must the futility continue? You're never going to define shmups, without the simple application of common sense and thought on a case by case basis.

Oh, and Tempest -is- a shmup, and potentially one of the first to contain genuinely manic play, despite not being manic purely on the basis of pretty maths patterns rendered in pink or blue blobs.

[Turrican]

Cmoon, I honestly fail to see how saying that Gyruss is a shmup opens the door to saying that Contra is a shmup too. Please explain this to me.

I want Gyruss and Tempest among shmups because they're already there, they fit all the criteria of the current definition, minus the Y-movement. And I'd like the proto shmups to be included 'cause I think anyone who see Galaga knows we came from there.

I respect Raiden's position that puts an emphasis on gameplay ('cause it's true that with Ymovement there was a big leap in gameplay), but I'd like a definition that counts history as well. To use his own example, I would put The Way of Exploding Fist among beat'em ups, of course.

Ganelon, It's not a matter if we like to play them or not.

Alpha5099, it's not a matter to have them so I can vote in the 25 list. Not entirely, at least.

[Ganelon]

Ganelon, It's not a matter if we like to play them or not.

Well, obviously. That was just me seguing off from my "anti-classics" query. My technical standard is still autoscrolling without wrapping and 2 axes. And it's the concise definition of the "modern" shmup as far as I can tell.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I never knew those others had "bosses".
I think they're all pretty much shmups, but I meant "true shmup" in the way "shmups" are defined here at this site.

So how is Xevious not a true shmup? It doesn't have power ups, but it has forced scrolling, an end level boss, and a ranking system. If Castle Shikigami 2 and Psyvariar can be considered "true shmups", why not Xevious?

Now, I never said Xevious wasen't a shmup, but to be honest, I don't know much about it. Back in the day, I thought it sucked, and I still do to this day.

I think the main interpetation of what a shmup is as defined by this site, is pretty much from the 8 bit era and up.
Anything older, would be labeled a "classic" by me.

[Turrican]

If perspective doesn't matter to most people, then I say Tempest is just another game in the single-axis-of-movement genre of 2D, 3rd-person shooters, making it a proto-shmup in my book[1], and belonging wherever the site admins choose to place such games. Since they are placed in shmups chat currently, that is where I would also place tube shooters (which I would start calling "tube shmups" because that's the kind of corporate-minded guy I am).

I find this very reasonable. And of course, I think perspective shouldn't count that much. Did you notice that by perspective, Raystorm and Raycrisis are more similar to tempest than to Xevious?

Anyway, Turrican, I think this thread makes clear why this issue is so difficult to address. As I think I stated originally, my determination of what was considered a borderliner for the top 25 vote is based on my understanding of what the site admins (i.e. Malc and Akira) have previously decreed borderliners vs. permitted in shmups chat (which, as stated, includes Space Invaders and such, but not Tempest and such). Unless and until that changes, I can (and do) spout my opinion but I still observe their guidelines when trying to lay down the boundaries what can be voted on or not...at least for the one vote I take time to run once a year.

I respect all your decisions guys. I love your work here. However, this brings to paradox. Tempest is much more a modern game than Space invaders is, with its slow pace and plodging. If you exclude Tempest, logic would be to throw away Space Invaders too. I think the perspective thing just adds cunfusion to what would be otherwise an excellent definition.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Cmoon, I honestly fail to see how saying that Gyruss is a shmup opens the door to saying that Contra is a shmup too. Please explain this to me.

I want Gyruss and Tempest among shmups because they're already there, they fit all the criteria of the current definition, minus the Y-movement. And I'd like the proto shmups to be included 'cause I think anyone who see Galaga knows we came from there.

I respect Raiden's position that puts an emphasis on gameplay ('cause it's true that with Ymovement there was a big leap in gameplay), but I'd like a definition that counts history as well. To use his own example, I would put The Way of Exploding Fist among beat'em ups, of course.

Ganelon, It's not a matter if we like to play them or not.

Alpha5099, it's not a matter to have them so I can vote in the 25 list. Not entirely, at least.

Whoa!
Way of the Exploding Fist...a "beat-em-up"?
Uh, well, I guess so. Its pretty much a strict tournament type "fighter" in my book. Just like Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Karate Champ!!!
Beat em ups always featured "joint" play, not competitive and actual "levels", not areas.
Karateka was one of the first "Beat em ups". See the difference?

I guess we have EVEN more to debate now...

[system11]

Whoa!
Way of the Exploding Fist...a "beat-em-up"?
Uh, well, I guess so. Its pretty much a strict tournament type "fighter" in my book. Just like Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Karate Champ!!!

I agree entirely - it's a round based fighting game between two (or sometimes more) characters. Had to add the bracket part, or some clever spark was bound to mention IK+

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I think you do have to classify games nowadays.
See, back then, thats all you had. Either they were "platformers" like Donkey Kong, Dig Dug; Racers like Championship Sprint, or "Space Games like Space Invaders, Defender,Asteriods. Other than that, it was basic sports. Baseball,Hockey,Footbal, Track n Field , etc.

How about other so called "arena shmups"? What is so different between say Smash TV and Gauntlet, Venture? Isn't even Doom a 3D version of Smash TV. Instead of an overhead view, its from the eye of the main character!
How about Commando and Ninja Combat?
Ninja Combat is more of a shooter like Elemental Master, that it is to Shock Troopers, a Run n Gunner like Mercs.

I think we all know what we're talking about here, its just that some feel the need to "over analyze" things a bit too much.

[Herr Schatten]

How much longer must the futility continue? You're never going to define shmups, without the simple application of common sense and thought on a case by case basis.

My thoughts exactly. You'll never define what a shmup is. The good thing: You don't ever have to, as for the cause of this site Malc's and the mods' opinions are all that matters.

Just some quick examples on how difficult it is to draw a line:

In Aleste Gaiden you can jump. Regardless, few people who have played it wouldn't call it a proper shmup.
But what about Monster Lair? It's basically the same, only horizontal. And half of the stages are actually normal horzie shmup stages. In the other half, you still have most of the elements present a shmup seems to require: You've got forced scrolling, you can only shoot in one direction. It's as shmuppy as it can be if it wasn't for the jumps (which actually are few and far between, so it's no big deal gameplay-wise). Still the jumps make the game feel more like a run and gun despite the fact that technically it is much close to isn't one.

See how a strict definition (one that would exclude a jump button) would fail here? Only common sense makes one of the games a shmup and the other one not. You couldn't just make the existence of a jump button a deciding factor for a shmup definition, because technically (and gameplay-wise) its functionality in Aleste Gaiden is not too different from the reflect shield in Giga Wing. You see, it's a decision that's bound to be based on feelings and common sense rather than on logic.

Btw, I personally would always include proto-shmups, because they are the roots of the genre. Cutting the roots will do more damage to the tree than cutting unwanted branches.
If we cut out Galaga, I can see us in like five or so years kicking out all non-manics ("What, Musha Aleste a shmup? You must be joking. It doesn't even have bullet patterns"). Respect the roots.
That said, I couldn't care less if I discuss Tempest in the main chat or in the OT forum. I'll be okay with whatever the mods think is appropriate.

Stop arguing about a definition for shmups and rather spend the time playing some!

[Ganelon]

Yeah... on second thought, scrolling and 2-plane movement aren't very useful categorizations either since many shmups stop scrolling for bosses. Some shmups have boss attacks, which aren't really any less "shmuppy" than the full games. And boss attacks operate without scrolling practically the same as stuff like Twinkle Star Sprites (hell, any shmup that doesn't have background objects that can interact with you plays practically the same as Twinkle Star Sprites even if it looks like the screen is scrolling since the scrolling introduces no gameplay changes). And Twinkle Star Sprites essentially differs from Gaplus only by way of limited vertical ship movement. And Gaplus differs from Galaga only by way of vertical ship movement at all.

It's easy to place the black line somewhere but where exactly seems quite arbitrary. Might as well just forget about it and let everybody use their intuitive holistic judgments.

[CMoon]

The whole thread started because of Tempest dude, read it from the beginning. Obviously run-n-guns don't belong in the shmups voting, it's basic common sense.

yes, yes, yes but we've had this debate before and ultimately it turns into a lot more than tempest. Again, I don't feel the outrage is all showing up over one game, and there's a reason why Malc appears in a photo playing Galaga. I really don't think anyone at all is too concerned about the discussion of proto-shmups, but you may have a valid point on top 25.

The problems we had before were with run'n'guns. The problems we had before were with rail shooters. As pointed out elsewhere, I think we can all agree a shooting game is a shooting game (I very much hear what Twitch is talking about with the term 'space games'--hell, Intellivision had their own color for them, and they all involved shooting, but not one was a shmup!)

Somewhere in the late 80's, all those ideas of space games gelled into a pretty homogenous idea of the modern shmup (short of never being able to agree on vertical or horizontal), and the concensus here has been that those are the games we are talking about.

Games like tempest fall outside of the argument completely because although it may share characteristics with shmups, it came into existance long before anyone thought of the idea of the modern shmup. I see why some people want to limit discussion of proto-shmups, but I also feel like they are few and far between enough that they really don't matter. That's why I said it is the games that are still being made now that cause the real problem and stand any chance of really cluttering up the main forum.

The thought is that proto-shmups are extinct and short of retro-revivals, no one makes them, so who really cares if they are ever-so occasionally brought up?

[system11]

yes, yes, yes but we've had this debate before and ultimately it turns into a lot more than tempest. Again, I don't feel the outrage is all showing up over one game, and there's a reason why Malc appears in a photo playing Galaga. I really don't think anyone at all is too concerned about the discussion of proto-shmups, but you may have a valid point on top 25.

That's Malcs Galaxian. I have long had plans to somehow engineer his death and secure it for my collection.

[uwfan]

In my opinion and definition, A shmup must have a scrolling background playfield, thats scrolls on/off the visible screen, and that in some way affects the gameplay.

Therefore, Tempest is not a shmup.

Neither is Galaga, Sapce Invaders etc. They are SINGLE SCREEN 2d shooting games, but they are not shmups.

[99pence]

When Brian Boitano travelled through time
To the year threethousand ten
He had to write a forum guide
To what a shoot-em-up was again

[Leeram]

I consulted the oracle; ZZAP64:

Issue 3 page 80 they describe Gyruss (like tempest) as a "3D shoot-em-up". Therefore it is sub genre of shoot-em-up

Issue 1 or 2 ( I can't remember which) Spy Hunter is decribed as shoot-em-up.

Issue 5 page 101 describes "Rescue on Fractalus" as an "Excellent Shoot-em-Up)


I ran out of scans that I'm allowed to download from zzap64.co.uk so you might want to do your own research, it'd be good to find a reference to a Robotron style game. IMHO, if those games are shoot-em-ups then so are the Tempest style games and so is Kingdom Grand Prix.

I think the way to clarify all of this is to use the sub-genres in the top 25 games list title. Basically it means Horizontal or Vertical scrolling games so Space Invaders and Galaxian should not be included. Therefore the top 25 should be "The top 25 vertical and horizontal shmups". It is not correct in my opinion to state that tempest is not a shoot-em-up, it clearly is, it's just not a vertical or horizontal shmup.

If you include SA and Galaxian then you have to include Robotron and other arena style games. Tell me; what's the difference between simply staying at the bottom of the screen and only shooting upwards in a Robotron style game and Space invaders? It suddenly becomes the same game. Just because I happen to be able to move up and down as well as left and right doesn't change the shoot-em-up classification IMO.

So the solution is easy, re-title the name of the list.

Cheers

Leeram

[Leeram]

Oh, and I forgot to mention I consider Metal Slug to be a Shoot-em-up. Someone described it as a run n gun, which is fine, but run n gun is a relatively new genre term (I think mainly only used in the USA to be honest, I hadn't heard of that term until I visited these boards) that is used to describe a vertical or horizontal scrolling shoot'em up that happens to have interactive bacgrounds in it. In the UK it would probably have been called a "horizontal scrolling, platform shoot-em-up". But still a shoot-em-up it be.

Please tell me the difference between Metal Slug and Axelay? or Metal Slug and esp ra de? or Metal Slug and Guwange? or Metal Slug and Border Down or Ikaruga (where you can get trapped in the backgrounds)

You have a character, the background scrolls, you avoid bullets, and as for the baddies:- you shoot them up!

Cheers

Leeram

[BrianC]

What about something like Total Carnage that has both auto scrolling and arena style stages?