General Gradius thread

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What's your favourite entry in the series?

Gradius/Nemesis (Arcade/Famicom/PCE/X68000/PS1/SAT/PSP)
14
8%
Gradius II/Vulcan Venture (Arcade/PCE/X68000/PS1/SAT/PSP)
28
17%
Gradius II (Famicom)
5
3%
Gradius III (Arcade/PS2/PSP)
9
5%
Gradius III (SFC)
17
10%
Gradius IV (Arcade/PS2/PSP)
9
5%
Gradius V (PS2)
36
21%
Nemesis & Nemesis II/Gradius: The Interstellar Assault/Return of the Hero (GB)
1
1%
Gradius Gaiden (PS1/PSP)
42
25%
Gradius ReBirth (Wii)
8
5%
 
Total votes: 169

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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by copy-paster »

Perikles wrote:I'm wondering if the PCE port is based on Vulcan Venture?
Obviously it's based on X68000 port, there's lot of similarities with them except for the music.
Kobayashi wrote:which Parodius's ships you most enjoy to play?
I would say Koitsu, although some ships like Mambo, Takosuke, Dracula-kun, and Lord.B (Jikkyou ver) are blast fun to use.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Perikles »

Felt spontaneous and added the poll as I said in my last post. :mrgreen: I'm sorry if (one of) your favourites didn't make it, I think it's a balanced selection given the limitation.
copy-paster wrote:Obviously it's based on X68000 port, there's lot of similarities with them except for the music.
Naturally they're going to be similar - both the X68000 and the PCE port are close to the arcade original. However, the X68000 game has the same extend routine as the arcade game from what I can see while the PCE port has the much more generous Vulcan Venture intervals. That's quite an interesting change, especially if you strive to replicate the arcade Gradius II on a home console of the time.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Kobayashi »

pegboy wrote:My ratings for overall best game:
V > Gaiden > II > I > III > IV
V is the best Gradius and not only that, but also one of the best STG of all time.
Gaiden is amazing, the second best.
The rest comes after these two, but all oscillating between excellent and very good.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by pegboy »

I voted for v, gaiden, and sfc iii. Gradius ii arcade just barely misses out. For whatever reason im much more drawn to the console games, I feel like they are far more balanced and and fun than the arcade versions. Most of that has to do with the awful, untested checkpoints in ii & iii, and the bizarre soundtrack of iv. I Still like those games too but the console versions are just far more refined.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by BIL »

Voted V (see first reply), Gaiden (sublime balancing of console STG flexibility to classic arcade rigour ; higher loops are a real joy) and II-FC (Umechan Team fanboy ;3 ).

I always give Nemesis II GB special mention for its seamlessly cinematic yet arcade-concise flow ; in that regard it's quite distinguished not just among its series, but STGs in general. Feel a bit like a mini-Rayforce before there was a Rayforce.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Kobayashi »

Gradius Gaiden was made at a time that Konami was awesomely inspired: 1997 (yes, the exact same year of the highly acclaimed Castlevania: Symphony of the Night). Although Gaiden be a brilliant game, exuding the essence of Gradius from every pore, it is no match for Gradius V, a masterpiece of genre developed by Treasure (G.Rev also made a contribution), highly competent staff who, in turn, was part of the Konami Team one day...
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Perikles »

I balloted for II (AC), III (AC) and Gaiden. I was seriously considering III (SFC) instead of its arcade original, I love both for very different reasons (see below). It also should be stressed that I would like to clear at least two loops of III (AC), IV and V as well as many loops of ReBirth before I comfortably feel able to expound a profound verdict, looping is an important matter for me in this series. It's unlikely I'll ever play some of the more peripheral games - even the improved version of 2 (MSX) felt extremely unnerving to me, and even normal people can clear several loops of the GB games which I find suspicious. Image Here's my personal overview/wall of text on the rest (keep in mind that even my least favourite Gradius game is far above almost everything else, those are merely comparative statements):


- The first Gradius is an exuberant pleasure to play - it probably embodies the improvisational, instinctive action better than any other game in the series. Positioning the options and methodically working with the stages is not nearly as important as it is in later games, most enemies are usually out in the open and easy to hit - double has the appropriate angle, laser has a massive hitbox that seems to grow even larger if you move around a bit. Since the hitbox of the ship is quite huge and the shield is even bigger, you're forced to tank a lot of hits on later loops instead of manipulating suicide bullets or shrewdly taking enemies out at opportune times. It's unfortunate that the checkpoint in the middle of stage 4 exists and that the hitbox couldn't be a tiny bit smaller, I don't see the need of a run-killing recovery in this first game. Dying on later loops should entail grave consequences, but this particular checkpoint feels completely out of place, it's easily as hard as some of the nastier counterparts in II & III. As such, I think the more lenient recovery difficulty in the PCE and Famicom port are a welcome change, both are superb conversions. Interestingly enough, despite (no: because) its shortcomings for technical reasons, the Famicom version is closest to later Gradius games in that you might want to play with a lot of speed-ups in order to space the options apart since you have only two of them. This gives an interesting contrast to the aforementioned scoring-oriented changes. The PCE port has the worst slowdowns out of the bunch, the MSX-themed stage is superb, however, and it maintains the higher difficulty of the arcade game for the most parts while making recoveries a lot easier. I'm accustomed to the faster and more numerous suicide bullets of the arcade game now, but it's nonetheless a very balanced experience especially considering that the difficulty upon looping rises linearly instead of exponentially. Having to fight the Big Core so many times is a bit of a shame although understandable for the time.


- I love II, it's my personal favourite. It's the first game in the series to have a decided focus on stage conception that is centered around smart option utilization which makes seemingly small decisions (number of speed-ups; playing with three options vs. four, the latter of which causes the option thief to spawn) crucial. Higher loops completely alter how stages 1 & 4 play out (stage 4 even has a brand-new layout) and require careful planning to not get overwhelmed without ever dropping the instantaneous nature of dodging (suicide) bullets - a wondrous high-wire act! Being able to use some quirkier strategies (like not shooting little moai heads or zubs or refraining from fire to influence the behaviour of duckers) for easier survival is a great addition, II is also the game in the main series where you can score quite a bit more or less per loop depending on precise/risky you play which is also an excellent incentive to practice/study earlier parts. Checkpoint recoveries are usually very manageable even on high loops, the fourth stage and one checkpoint of the final stage are very unfortunate exceptions. They're doable after a lot of practice and knowledge, yet especially stage four is needlessly difficult to recover from for all the wrong reasons. There should never be any checkpoint without a power-up, that's just bad. Chances are your run is over if you happen to die there after several loops due to weariness. The PCE port is marvellous for the most parts, after being accustomed to the arcade game so much I'm having some difficulties adapting to its higher loops, though. Nonetheless a stellar effort, it really is a stupor mundi. The new stage is outstanding and pronounces the established prudent option placement in an exemplary manner. I'm not a huge fan of the Famicom version - it's also a little marvel in its own right, but it never gets more difficult which is understandable (I'm going to assume that clouds of suicide bullets weren't feasible on the system, lest not without massive bouts of flicker, the first Famicom conversion also omits those) yet still a bit boring. Due to the semi-random amount of points you get out of Club and the scoring exploit on the Moai boss counterstopping/high looping becomes even more futile. It's definitely a much better game if you just want to have a well-crafted one-loop experience.


- Shepardus insinuated it in the other thread: III (AC) had all the potential to be the pinnacle of its series. And I want to say it does have some of the finest moments within the series, there's no denying it also has some of the biggest issues on the other hand. I absolutely think that people are generally way too dismissive towards the game, I can regrettably understand why that is, though. If you beat the SFC port on the arcade difficulty the game will state you're a "technical monkey" which is an apt description for those who'll get a lot of enjoyment out of the arcade game, incidentally. Option placing and spacing is even more important here than it was in II which is an enormous accomplishment. Combine that with an expertly crafted pair of double/laser (playing with Type B) and you'll have a blithe time figuring out some of the amazing stages - I particularly want to mention the moai, cell and most importantly the fortress stage, but a lot of the other stages are grand, too. Learning how to safely dispatch hatches and moving around shifting walls in the fortress was some of the most fun I had with the genre. That also includes getting very familiar with a lot of the peculiarities of the game, such as some of the more questionable/goofy hit detections, which floors will only neutralize your shield and when the slowdown will kick in/abruptly subside. You probably must love the game before even getting semi-competent at it to get the most out of it - a lot of people will quit long before that and I don't blame them. Those are clear objective flaws that shouldn't be trivialized. I can luckily live with most of them myself. It also helps that I adore the music in the game even more than the soundtracks of its brethren which, again, is high praise. My only real issue is just how cruel the looping "conditions" are. Having to deal with temperamental regenerating cell walls and floaty brains which have criminally large hitboxes before getting to the second loop might be my least favourite design decision in the series. Image You also have to carefully select your options before that in order to prevent the option hunter from spawning during that section... I'm still very excited to learn at least the second loop, it shall be a great adventure! I love the SFC port for its opposing qualities: I can just play it as I would play the first Gradius, it's sheer excitement and bliss. Being able to enjoy the outstanding audio-visual presentation and strong level design without having to concentrate on every move can be heaven sometimes. The only real critique I have is that recovering on the first and - even worse - the second boss on high loops borders on the impossible. Which means that high loop sessions/counterstops are frightening once you hit stage 1 and then become much more relaxing after stage 2 (although not downright easy!).


- IV is a lot better than its reputation. Having said that, I'm also one of the many players who is having difficulties with getting into it. The Gradius series always reused themes/ideas for stages, yet it never appeared to me as simple plagiarizing or recycling ideas. Some of IV's stages create the impression that the designers were shy of new concepts, though, or so it appears to me. The ice/bubble stage and high-speed stage are downright silly. That most likely also has to do with the odd music and weird visuals, it's also grossly unfair to discard those in a trice without acknowledging some of the ingenuity that went into them, I'm nonetheless having a hard time truly appreciating the game. Implementing the dynamic rank system was without a doubt a brilliant idea, the game is a lot more balanced than III as a result (it had the predisposition to be just as frustrating). IV also finds an enviable equilibrium of action and planning - the moai stage will require a lot of on-the-fly dodging/manoeuvering while the fortress stage is rather technical as usual etc. Several boss fights are quite great, arguably better than most in II & III. I'm also fairly certain that IV gains a lot from high loop play and I have to say that I'm eager to find out at some point. Shaking that awkward feeling is egregiously difficult which is a pity since IV does deserve better for sure. It doesn't help that certain sections genuinely emanate an annoying aura. That cell stage seems to be there only to aggravate players, I can't help it. I'm curious how much I change my opinion on the game upon getting better at it. It's perhaps the most repellent entry of the main series, maybe it's also one of the most rewarding ones once the initial hurdle has been overcome?


- V I respect for its bold changes and adaptations of the formula, I find it hard to love it, however. It's not quite the R-Type Leo of the Gradius series in terms of dissimilarities with the rest of the games, but there is a certain resemblance. While I have to spend more time with it to frame an even-keeled analysis I get the impression that it leans moreso towards the improvisational side of things than the technical, tactical aspect. This has to do with the small hitbox as well as the multitude of enemies and bullets which - at least from my experience - make it hard to meticulously plan out exact routes. That's not to say there isn't a lot of work put into methodical action, locking the options in place for example allows for some great strategies. I hope that I can feel more natural with the game at some point in time; I'm still not comfortable dodging more intense patterns, I miss the blazing-fast ship and I'm not as much of a fan of the majestic, grandiose atmosphere as opposed to the alert, adventurous spirit with a diverse set of levels with vibrant colours of earlier games. I also wonder whether this particular entry wouldn't have benefitted from a lack of infinite loops; due to the dense, epic scope of just one loop I could imagine it only having two or three loops instead of going on forever. That's only a theoretical reflection as of now, will have to find out in praxi.


- Gaiden is my second-favourite, closely behind II. It has the best boss fights in the series in my opinion, the most interesting diversions of ships/configurations, generally magnificent stages and arguably the most balanced checkpoint recoveries. I would go as far as to say it's objectively the best game in the series (V is too different to obtain this label, I reckon; a lot of what people love about V has to do with what it completely alters, not with what it keeps). The low extend rate perfectly balances the easier checkpoint recoveries to a point where it becomes arcade-difficult without ever explicitly feeling so. It's an uncannily natural game where all the set-pieces gaplessly come together. Thanks to the amazing boss fights there's also a great emphasis on aggressive, downright violent techniques which is tremendously satisfying by dint of the spectacular visual appeal. Stage gimmicks like the reflecting crystals or the gravitational pull of the black hole not only develop and independent life on a cinematic level, but are also stupendously dovetailed into the gameplay mechanics, again in a natural manner. Higher loops reward players for adding new dangerous layers to existing boss fights or by including the almighty Scary Core, also known as Heaven's Gate. All-around top-notch work, I can't think of anything to complain - both it and R-Type Delta were prime examples of how to gingerly adjust long-running series without turning them into something completely different.


- ReBirth might be a hidden gem amidst the series. I only 2-ALLed it with a couple of ships so far, but I have to say my first impressions are very benevolent. It's obviously a loving nod to the MSX series, yet that's not all there's to it. It reminds me quite a bit of the Famicom port of the first game in that it is unusually oriented on scoring. It's a short game (five stages) that gets even shorter when you enter the bonus stages (which will skip the rest of two of those five stages), it's not particularly difficult at first, but does add one more suicide bullets for every subsequent loop, you can earn extra lives and points by capsules, the option thief is gone etc. pp. You're definitely not going to get a fulfilling experience if you only want to tackle one loop, it's evidently construed around multi-loop sessions which is a substantial bonus in my book. Navigating through the bonus stages is a trifle hairy, familiarity will hopefully mend that. The throwbacks to other games are charming (before getting to the final boss you'll hear the mechanical "Warning" advice from Gradius III (AC), the moai boss perishes with a deafening Salamander Fire Dragon roar...) and I love the rearranged themes from the MSX games. Will gladly investigate this one more in the future, it's probably not going to land in my top 3, but it's also might not be too far from it either.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Kobayashi »

Perikles wrote:- ReBirth might be a hidden gem amidst the series. I only 2-ALLed it with a couple of ships so far, but I have to say my first impressions are very benevolent. It's obviously a loving nod to the MSX series, yet that's not all there's to it. It reminds me quite a bit of the Famicom port of the first game in that it is unusually oriented on scoring. It's a short game (five stages) that gets even shorter when you enter the bonus stages (which will skip the rest of two of those five stages), it's not particularly difficult at first, but does add one more suicide bullets for every subsequent loop, you can earn extra lives and points by capsules, the option thief is gone etc. pp. You're definitely not going to get a fulfilling experience if you only want to tackle one loop, it's evidently construed around multi-loop sessions which is a substantial bonus in my book. Navigating through the bonus stages is a trifle hairy, familiarity will hopefully mend that. The throwbacks to other games are charming (before getting to the final boss you'll hear the mechanical "Warning" advice from Gradius III (AC), the moai boss perishes with a deafening Salamander Fire Dragon roar...) and I love the rearranged themes from the MSX games. Will gladly investigate this one more in the future, it's probably not going to land in my top 3, but it's also might not be too far from it either.
Perikles, the big problem of Gradius Rebirth are the nasty slowdowns that occur especially in the second stage when there are many elements on the screen at the same time, something unreasonable for the hardware on which this game was designed: Nintendo Wii, system that has plenty of power to run this game in a perfect way (or Rebirth is graphically more powerful than Super Mario Galaxy 2? ) :mrgreen:

They should have better polished before release. However, Rebirth is very good and has a graphic pattern similar to Gradius Gaiden, but far behind the brilliant level design of Gaiden. Here my full run of Gradius Rebirth: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 47533516D7
Last edited by Kobayashi on Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Vludi »

No Nemesis '90 Kai :o? that's a weird title in the series but pretty interesting
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by copy-paster »

Vludi wrote:No Nemesis '90 Kai :o? that's a weird title in the series but pretty interesting
The way that the enemies spread suicide bullets on first loop (if the ship is full power) is just terrible.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by MathU »

Perikles wrote:- ReBirth might be a hidden gem amidst the series. I only 2-ALLed it...
You know the game has three distinct loops right? :wink:
Kobayashi wrote:Perikles, the big problem of Gradius Rebirth are the nasty slowdowns that occur especially in the second stage when there are many elements on the screen at the same time, something unreasonable for the hardware on which this game was designed: Nintendo Wii, system that has plenty of power to run this game in a perfect way (or Rebirth is graphically more powerful than Super Mario Galaxy 2? ) :mrgreen:
The slowdown in Rebirth is entirely intentional actually. It happens when a specific number of projectiles are on screen. It's much better than the slowdown in other Gradius games because it's fairly consistent and you won't find yourself flying into walls abruptly quite as often. You can even use its consistently strategically for example to safely navigate the area of stage 5 with turrets on platforms moving up and down on higher loops by keeping them alive and firing at you.

Gradius Rebirth is one of my favorites because it is the only Gradius game I have taken great pleasure in playing for score. The varied loops (and each loop's shortness), the 1000-point bonus for rolling your power meter over, and the large number of enemy ship spawners to milk all come together to make a game that is much more interesting to play for score than other Gradius games. My only real complaints with Rebirth are Big Core being 2 of 5 bosses and stage 5 staying the same between loops.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Perikles »

MathU wrote:You know the game has three distinct loops right? :wink:
Do you mean the Story mode? It loops forever if you play it via Score Attack. The results are quite fascinating. :o
Kobayashi wrote:However, Rebirth is very good and has a graphic pattern similar to Gradius Gaiden, but far behind the brilliant level design of Gaiden.
That's a misleading comparison, though. ReBirth doesn't try to equal Gaiden, it is - as MathU also stated - designed for a different goal, namely scoring/looping. If you look at ReBirth from a strict "how much content does it offer in the first loop?" angle you're inevitably going to be disappointed, sure. Its stage design is hermetically sound as far as I'm concerned, every turret, ducker, zub and hatch sits in a strategical position. They even positioned some of the hatches in the final stage in a way that air-to-ground missiles will harmlessly sail over them, a lot of careful consideration went into the game. That doesn't mean it's necessarily better than Gaiden, but one should look at what ReBirth actually (attempts to) achieve(d), not what one wants to get out of it.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Shepardus »

Perikles wrote:
MathU wrote:You know the game has three distinct loops right? :wink:
Do you mean the Story mode? It loops forever if you play it via Score Attack. The results are quite fascinating. :o
I don't think I'll complain about suicide bullets ever again.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Kobayashi »

MathU wrote:The slowdown in Rebirth is entirely intentional actually.
I don't believe in this thesis about intentional slowdowns in Gradius ReBirth, unless you show me some respected source in which the developers themselves (M2) talk about this issue, then I'll believe. Until this happens, I'll continue believing that it's bad software implementation. For me, Gradius ReBirth would be a much better game without these slowdowns.
Perikles wrote:That's a misleading comparison, though. ReBirth doesn't try to equal Gaiden
Equal ? No, but I noticed some similarity yes, with respect to graphics only.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by MathU »

Perikles, your poll should really include Salamander/Lifeforce. It was the original, intended sequel of the first game and belongs to the Gradius series as much as any other. Salamander 2 is maybe more debatable but the first not so much.
Perikles wrote:
MathU wrote:You know the game has three distinct loops right? :wink:
Do you mean the Story mode? It loops forever if you play it via Score Attack. The results are quite fascinating. :o
No I meant the game has three distinct loops that roll over as you keep playing. When you get to 4-1 for instance you finally return to the first stage of your difficulty mode (with more bullets of course). Been a while since I played story mode though, maybe it doesn't loop more than once on that?

Edit: checked again, normal mode ends with the third loop. You can only play loops beyond that on Score Attack.
Kobayashi wrote:I don't believe in this thesis about intentional slowdowns in Gradius ReBirth, unless you show me some respected source in which the developers themselves (M2) talk about this issue, then I'll believe. Until this happens, I'll continue believing that it's bad software implementation.
One way in which you can tell that it's intentional is that the threshold of bullets needed to trigger slowdown actually changes on different loops and difficulties. You need much less bullets on-screen to trigger slowdown in the first loop than in the second for instance.
Last edited by MathU on Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Perikles »

Vludi wrote:No Nemesis '90 Kai :o? that's a weird title in the series but pretty interesting
Overlooked your post before: I would've included every game under ideal circumstances, due to the 10-item-limit I had to cut something out. I picked what I assumed to be the most popular games, although I possibly would've been better counselled not picking the GB games?

Kobayashi wrote:Equal ? No, but I noticed some similarity yes, with respect to graphics only.
Oh, I misread your previous post then:
Kobayashi wrote:However, Rebirth is very good and has a graphic pattern similar to Gradius Gaiden, but far behind the brilliant level design of Gaiden.
I thought that your statement after the comma was unrelated to your remark before that and geared towards gameplay (i.e. ReBirth's stage conception is not as solid as Gaiden's). No harm meant!

MathU wrote:Perikles, your poll should really include Salamander/Lifeforce. It was the original, intended sequel of the first game and belongs to the Gradius series as much as any other. Salamander 2 is maybe more debatable but the first not so much.
As I see it I would need at least five choices to do the Salamander games full justice: one for the arcade Salamander, one for the arcade Life Force (ignoring the US version), one for the 8-bit ports (ignoring the rather minor differences between Famicom Salamander and NES Life Force), one for the PCE Salamander (I'd insist on adding that one) and one for Salamander 2. I'd have to omit several core Gradius games to include them. With unlimited/much more items I'd add them, but I don't know how to under the existing restrictions.
MathU wrote:No I meant the game has three distinct loops that roll over as you keep playing. When you get to 4-1 for instance you finally return to the first stage of your difficulty mode (with more bullets of course). Been a while since I played story mode though, maybe it doesn't loop more than once on that?
I was not aware of that. :o This keeps getting better and better, indeed. I was unsure because Very Easy and Easy apparently don't loop at all according to several sources, so I surmised there was a specific difficulty/mode selection with exactly three loops.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by pegboy »

Are there any of Gradius/Salamander games that don't loop forever besides Salamander 2? What about the MSX games?
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by MathU »

The one real big flaw with Gradius Rebirth is that in spite of all its great ideas towards facilitating score play, it still loops infinitely. It's such a shame that ultimately scoring the best in it still does boil down to whoever has the greatest amount of free time on their hands to sit through a hundred loops.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Perikles »

MathU wrote:The one real big flaw with Gradius Rebirth is that in spite of all its great ideas towards facilitating score play, it still loops infinitely. It's such a shame that ultimately scoring the best in it still does boil down to whoever has the greatest amount of free time on their hands to sit through a hundred loops.
I wholly understand the sentiment - it's not everyone's definition of a grand time to play for two, four or even seven hours to get a counterstop/over 10 million points/some other number. However, due to the massive increase in difficulty typically for at least three or four loops in Gradius games it's not merely an exercise in patience. Granted, if you're experienced/good enough to endlessly survive everything the games throw at you even at the highest rank and amount of suicide bullets and can easily recover from the worst checkpoints you only have to go through the motions for an extended period of time. But for how many players does that apply? I doubt that it only has to do with lacking motivation/will that we don't see many multi-loop clears especially for the arcade games, it's also a demanding task outside of having stamina/free time. Dwindling attention also doesn't help after a while even if you are acquainted with the high-loop procedure.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Kobayashi »

Although I really like Gradius Rebirth, I perceive it as one of the weakest of the series. In fact, I put it in the last position of my personal ranking, along with Gradius I and I'm sure that ReBirth would be a better game without the unpleasant presence of slowdowns.

By the way, the compilation Gradius III & IV released for the Playstation 2 is a true gem, because you have at your disposal ported versions of these classics very similar to the original arcades, but with a pleasant and very welcome improvement: the option of complete eradication of slowdowns, simply tuning in the game menu the option [Wait Level] = 0 (no wait), then bye bye slowdowns! This makes Gradius III much more enjoyable than the original arcade with native slowdowns. This compilation also allows you to select a wide range of difficulty levels, making these games much more accessible than the original.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by MathU »

As infuriating as the erratic slowdown in III can be, the game was pretty much designed around facilitating it in a lot of locations. Oh how I wish turning it off magically made the game better in every way, but it ends up making various bosses and stage segments far more difficult than they would otherwise be.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by copy-paster »

pegboy wrote:Are there any of Gradius/Salamander games that don't loop forever besides Salamander 2? What about the MSX games?
MSX games do not loop iirc.
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Mortificator
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Mortificator »

The MSX games ask if you want to go to a second loop when you clear them, but since I'm generally not interested in playing loops, I can't tell you how many times they loop or if the difficulty even increases.
MathU wrote:As infuriating as the erratic slowdown in III can be, the game was pretty much designed around facilitating it in a lot of locations. Oh how I wish turning it off magically made the game better in every way, but it ends up making various bosses and stage segments far more difficult than they would otherwise be.
I just lower the difficulty to compensate.
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pegboy
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by pegboy »

MathU wrote:As infuriating as the erratic slowdown in III can be, the game was pretty much designed around facilitating it in a lot of locations. Oh how I wish turning it off magically made the game better in every way, but it ends up making various bosses and stage segments far more difficult than they would otherwise be.
It makes the game a hell of a lot harder if you turn off the slowdown as the game was clearly designed around (or compensated for) the slowdown. There is really no way to explain the fire stage otherwise, which is just completely stupid without slowdown. I'd love to see someone clear the second loop without slowdown one day (hint: it won't be me lol), I'm not even convinced it's possible.
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MathU
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by MathU »

Except for that sometimes tricky boss, I actually play the fire stage the same as I would without slowdown: by letting the option hunter take all my options and then only shooting a select number of fireballs. Once I got the fireball pathways memorized I found I was able to clear it much more consistently without fear of flying into a flame obscured by my bombs or shots. The added benefit is you become capable of recovering on any of its checkpoints when you're no longer reliant on frenzy-induced slowdown to survive.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by pegboy »

That's the same strategy I used when playing without slowdown. The boss is really annoying if you die, and of course you have to recover in the next stage which can also be difficult (timeout the plant boss can be annoying as well). It's much easier IMO to beat stage 7 using the slowdown and full options. And for the second loop just forget about doing it any other way, game because impossible if you die anywhere other than the cube stage.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by MathU »

I’ve never really thought about it until now, but I just timed how long it takes to clear the first loop of Gradius Rebirth without dying and I have some other games to compare it with. It takes about 23 minutes. It turns out that’s only 4 minutes shorter than Gradius II. It’s 7 minutes longer than Gradius and Lifeforce each. Gradius III is naturally a monster at twice Rebirth’s clear time.

Rebirth doesn’t really have a lot of dead play time where nothing is happening. So, even though it only has five stages (not including bonus), I guess its stages are generally a bit meatier than typical stages in the original series.

Another factor to consider is that significant amounts of slowdown inflate the play time for the original games. Rebirth doesn't really experience slowdown in the first loop outside amassed broken rigs in stage 4 or very briefly in the floating turrets section of stage 5.

In conclusion, the criticism that Rebirth only has five stages is one that definitely shouldn't be taken at face value.

(It's more like 15 unique stages including bonus and loops anyway.)
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by Perikles »

MathU wrote:I’ve never really thought about it until now, but I just timed how long it takes to clear the first loop of Gradius Rebirth without dying and I have some other games to compare it with. It takes about 23 minutes.
If you take both bonus stages you can even finish one loop in under 20 minutes, 18 minutes or so should be realistic. Less if you die somewhere in the bonus stages, even. That's the main reason why I think it's worth it to play them - you might ironically score less, yet the time saving and elision of potentially dangerous situations/checkpoints preponderate the disadvantages in the (literal) long run.

Would you say it's a worthwhile venture to activate the volcanoes in the first stage on higher loops? Seems like an extremely dangerous bet in case you die somewhere, checkpoint recovery will be enormously complicated.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by MathU »

Yeah the sad thing is that you can get more points by playing through outside the bonus stages, so I almost never do them. Let's keep the comparison consistent though and keep bonus stages out. :wink:

I can handle the stage volcanoes in the second loop and it's definitely worth it to milk them, but I don't have an effective strategy for milking them while also surviving in any loops past that so I just just leave the "stage balancer" machines alone at the start and focus on enemy carriers.
Last edited by MathU on Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: General Gradius thread

Post by copy-paster »

Just asking.

Is Gradius PCE are worth playing? I know the graphics are not very bright, but the game fixes the option positioning and trailing.
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