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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:36 am 


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To Far Away Times wrote:
According to that list R-Type 1 and 2 are separated by only one point. That doesn't seem right. R-Type 1 really isn't that hard in comparison. R-Type is actually fairly easy on repeat plays once you know where to position yourself and what's ahead of you. You need that plus a good deal of dexterity for R-Type 2.

I would actually agree on their rating. R-Type II's first loop might be a bit harder in some spots, but recovery upon a death is always manageable. I've 2-ALLed both of them and I still haven't been able to beat the final boss of the first game without both bits, thus a death after stage 4 is an implicit game over for me. If there's some sort of a safespot with just one bit against the final boss I'd change my mind about it, but as it is I would concur. R-Type II 2-ALL on the other hand is quite a bit higher than a R-Type 2-ALL as it should.

Another thing I expressly wanted to laud is the high placing of Raystorm (30 points, right up there with Gradius III and Raiden II). Not many people talk about it here, it is simply an evil game and it only hands out three lives.

ProjectAKo mentioned it already, but I'm also quite sure that some of those early shooters (like Star Force, Gun.Smoke and Exed Exes) would have a good chance to occupy high spots, quite a few of them are shockingly difficult (and, in the case of Exed Exes, exhaustively long on top of that).

I could make some list of sorts for 16-bit shooters (PCE HuCard & CD, MD/Genesis, MCD/SCD, SFC/SNES), I've cleared pretty much every game for those systems, including several loops in quite a few of them. I don't know if anyone is interested in such a list, however.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:54 am 


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Perikles wrote:
I could make some list of sorts for 16-bit shooters (PCE HuCard & CD, MD/Genesis, MCD/SCD, SFC/SNES), I've cleared pretty much every game for those systems, including several loops in quite a few of them. I don't know if anyone is interested in such a list, however.


I'd read 'em, and take notes. :smile: Still regularly referring back to your PCE/MD/SFC rundowns in the 1CC thread!
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Last edited by BIL on Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:56 am 


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Perikles wrote:
I could make some list of sorts for 16-bit shooters (PCE HuCard & CD, MD/Genesis, MCD/SCD, SFC/SNES), I've cleared pretty much every game for those systems, including several loops in quite a few of them. I don't know if anyone is interested in such a list, however.


we need this

Also, Star Force (US) is the most bullshit and mind numbing console shmoop I've ever heard of.
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:00 pm 


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vvv_stg wrote:
Tried translating the list into English. I should have realized that this list has ~300 entries before trying to do that. I've not done much proofreading so far, and it has quite a few places where specific games left me confused (marked with question marks). Plus I still have very vague idea what section headings are trying to say. But what I have so far might be useful, so here it is:

Spoiler: show


Thank you!

This should be put in the first post! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:03 pm 


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resty wrote:
help with some translations

Ultra Guard has an English name Ultra X Weapons I think.
Comments in those DBAC rows are using burst setting plane.
Raiden DX one is [not consider destroying all radars]

Perikles wrote:
I wonder why they didn't include Tatsujin Ou.

I found a Chinese translation of 2008 version of the wiki; Tatsujin Ou 1-ALL was on the board with a rank near Strikers 1945 II 2-ALL. Perhaps they finally gave up on giving it a proper rank and let it removed.

Mills wrote:
Interesting read but some of the video replays just don't live up to the ranking on STG merit or just not updated enough with new high score runs/entries.
Or course not even WR run is going to be recorded.

The wiki is mostly for survival clear difficult. A high score video is not necessary. But it's cool they find videos for almost every game.

Yeah it would be cool if they have 2ALL superplay like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=LVsQoXjdyOE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyr1E34SwRU
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:07 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
because basically no one plays pink sweets without infinite lives

a lot of games/modes are missing


Still if the list is going for sheer difficulty not including this is a shame.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:48 pm 


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pulling the ranking out of your ass because you haven't played it is a great way to make an inaccurate list


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:27 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
pulling the ranking out of your ass because you haven't played it is a great way to make an inaccurate list


I played plenty of Pink Sweets so not sure what your angry about? I refuse to use the infinite lives trick as I feel it takes away from the game, I like to play and see how far I can get without it. Going for a Letter score this year without the trick is in my STG 2016 goals actually. Watching Icarus accomplish a letter score without the trick has been my motivation for doing so, his runs are amazingly fun to watch.

Unless you are here to tell me that clearing Pink sweets without the infinite lives trick is easy?


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:05 pm 


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Strikers1945guy wrote:
I played plenty of Pink Sweets so not sure what your angry about? I refuse to use the infinite lives trick as I feel it takes away from the game, I like to play and see how far I can get without it. Going for a Letter score this year without the trick is in my STG 2016 goals actually. Watching Icarus accomplish a letter score without the trick has been my motivation for doing so, his runs are amazingly fun to watch.

Unless you are here to tell me that clearing Pink sweets without the infinite lives trick is easy?

but have you played enough pink sweets to know how hard the clear exactly is (not with a letter score, just the bare clear) and how it would measure up to the games close to it in rank?

every one in a while we get some genius saying it's "as hard as *insert cave 2-all*" despite never clearing the game in the first place or knowing how hard the mentioned cave game is to clear

that's also a reason why the list is nothing more than dumb fun and will be forever both inaccurate and extremely subjective


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:13 pm 


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Thanks vvv_stg for the translation.

Quote:
45 Dodonpachi Daioujou WL [CAVE, 2002] 2-ALL -3 for International version


What internationnal version are they referring to ? Tamashii ?


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:13 pm 



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Strikers1945guy wrote:
I played plenty of Pink Sweets so not sure what your angry about?


Have you cleared it? Have you cleared any of the games in the top 10 of the list? If not, why do you feel qualified to rank them?

The first rule of making any kind of a sensible list should be allowing people to rank only games that they have cleared against other games they have cleared, anything else will just lead to random nonsense.
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:17 pm 


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Erppo wrote:
Strikers1945guy wrote:
I played plenty of Pink Sweets so not sure what your angry about?


Have you cleared it? Have you cleared any of the games in the top 10 of the list? If not, why do you feel qualified to rank them?

The first rule of making any kind of a sensible list should be allowing people to rank only games that they have cleared against other games they have cleared, anything else will just lead to random nonsense.


Okay so by that logic 99% of us shouldn't be talking about the list then. How many people here have cleared ketsui Ura loop? Futari ultra? Well if you haven't please don't discuss the list.

I was just going by my general feel for the difficulty of the game, haveing played but not cleared it without the bug

I've looped DOJBL like many other (obviously not a 2 all or anything close) so I was just giving my general feel for game Xs difficulty vs game Ys.

From what I can see having played tons of PS without the glitch and watching the tremendous runs Icarus does without it I was trying to find a base as to where I feel it would rank on the list. Thought this whole thing was about general discussion?


Last edited by Strikers1945guy on Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:59 am 


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I did make it to loop 2 in Parodius, yes it is hard, but the list is really full of it, it can't be as hard as Mushi ultra mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:08 pm 


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>ctrl+f 東方
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:22 pm 


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KoopaTGR wrote:
This Japanese wiki contains a list of a large amount of arcade STGs ranked by difficulty on a scale of 0 to 45.
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:29 pm 


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http://www.wikihouse.com/dstg/index.php ... 9%BD%BC%A8

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:46 pm 



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Bananamatic wrote:
http://www.wikihouse.com/dstg/index.php?%B5%A1%BC%EF%CA%CC%C9%BD%BC%A8

>ctrl+f 東方
>20 matches
checkmate atheists



Sees GundeadliGne Demonic at 44, without a - for using Nagi. That should be like -20 to -30+ for using Nagi because that's the only reasonable way to clear it. As Eryth or Elixirel though, I don't know for sure where it should be, the mode just feels impossible with the other 2 characters, but I haven't seriously tried routing it or looking for replays of them. 20 for Standard and 25 for Standard with TLB also seems a bit right if it's not Nagi. Eryth and Elixirel really have to keep the rank down at first to make it through decently, but I don't know if +5 for the TLB is really accurate. The main dickish thing about the GundeadliGne TLB is the full health restore if you use a bomb against, but the patterns for it can be completely memorized including the final that killed my runs so many times when trying to clear as Elixirel(the first 2 phases of it are easy enough, but I wasn't about to spend the time grinding the pattern in training since the Demonic Challenge version pretty much seemed different.


23 for Hitogata Happa Nobilmente and +2 with True Last Boss is interesting too. I would kind of disagree with it though. It's not really until Allemande where the game actually starts getting very hard, though TLB Nobilmente definitely does have some difficulty to it, so maybe a 25 for that isn't bad. Kind of wish they had rated the alternate modes Destiny 13 and Solo Voyage too for Hitogata Happa as well as the higher difficulties.

Gundemonium Recollection seems to be missing. Would have been nice to see how those modes get compared to the others in the series.

Also doesn't seem to show all of the Touhou games either.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:17 pm 


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Could someone please make an english version of this for this forum.
Would be very interessting.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:53 pm 


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Shadolf wrote:
Could someone please make an english version of this for this forum.
Would be very interessting.


Do you mean a translation of the list?

viewtopic.php?p=1157621#p1157621


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:58 am 


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Thought I might dig this out since I noticed that they added a bunch of games below the main list (if I understand right they are still deliberating on the rankings which would explain why so many games are ranked wth 20 points, one of which is Scramble, probably the easiest arcade shooter in existence). Several games are still missing, but it looks like they try to be as thorough as possible which is very welcome.

I also got quite a few of those down now, ranging from 3 to 41 points. I still stand by my initial statement that most games are fairly accurate (although I'm not so sure how the scoring aspect applies sometimes), a few decisions don't make a lick of sense, though. Is anyone interested in a (transitional; I might come back every once in a while once I get a sufficient amount together again) overview? I would restrict myself to games that are at least 5 points too high/low in my opinion, a few points difference are to be expected, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:16 am 


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Your overview would be much appreciated :D
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:41 pm 



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I would love to see your revised version of the 1CC difficulty list. I don't think scoring should factor in whatsoever, since that would really be impossible to quantify, and scoring in virtually any game can be extremely challenging depending on your goals. It should be just a bare-bones 1CC difficulty.
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:48 pm 


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Here's what I got so far. Three remarks as a preamble:

- In case I forgot to add it somewhere: every value has autofire in mind.

- It seems obvious to me that this guide did not have a lot of scoring in mind, and not only because of the vague nature of defining it as pegboy rightfully pointed out. For example: two of the lowest ranking games are Insector X and Gekirindan (both with 3 points). I would agree with that sentiment, but only for survival. When you play Gekirindan for score you're not allowed to lose a life or to use a bomb while forced to painfully milking some bosses for an extended period of time which can get pretty tricky since the hitboxes are quite big. Insector X's scoring consists of repeating a laughably easy checkpoint over and over. So there's no question which one of the two would be much harder when played for score. There are quite a few similar cases throughout, I just cite this one pars pro toto.

- As always, this is not meant to be objective in any way. Everyone has certain strengths and weaknesses thus it's not easy to matter-of-factly find valid arguments that'll be universally applicable. This is merely how I personally felt about those clears.

These are the games that are ranked too high:

Spoiler: show
41: Twin Eagle: Revenge Joe's Brother. According to this document, Twin Eagle is one of the hardest games out there, especially among the games without additional loops. I can partially understand why that is, it's extremely exaggerated nonetheless. If you use an autofire rate that is about 15Hz or higher the game indeed becomes impossible. It's also one of the most inconsistent games out there, anyone who claims that he's able to beat it consistently is lying. Even if you hypothetically were the best player on earth there's simply nothing you can do when bad luck strikes during the chase sequences. You sometimes dodge incoming shots by moving to one side only to get immediately murdered afterwards by a plane that materializes right behind you. If that happens you're severely underpowered and way too slow for the next stage and might as well reset. The actual stages themselves also have some nasty tricks up their sleeves, the anti-air missile tanks are a colossal threat if you don't know where there are and how to deal with them. Lastly, this is one of those "hitbox 'em ups", where you have to learn how to steer an oversized tin box. All in all a tough game, and one that will demand a player to spam runs even after having studied all important facets. But it's not inherently demanding enough to be this high up. I'd give it 24-26 points, depending on your kusoge tolerance a little bit more.

40: Mahou Keibitai Gun Hohki/Mystic Riders, 2-ALL. Now this one comes with a certain caveat. It is an Irem 2-ALL and as such a veritable challenge. I'd argue that it is not as tough as an Image Fight 2-ALL or an R-Type II 2-ALL, however (which are ranked with 36 and 34 points, respectively). The latter games are much more unforgiving since their second loops are not only extremely hard in general terms, but also feature brutal checkpoints (especially R-Type II). In Gun Hohki you don't have checkpoints and respawn with full power provided you have enough crystals in stock. Now, that doesn't mean you can't lose all your lives in a snap, particularly the second loop's final stage can empty your entire stock in a few seconds. It is generally more lenient, however. My caveat stems from the controls: it is paramount to learn how to constantly and wisely use the spin manoeuvre that'll grant complete invincibility for a while. You cannot hope to beat the second loop without it. I wonder if it is harder to consistently perform this move with arcade controls, I find it not too bad with the regular Xbox 360 pad I'm using, I can imagine it being more tricky with a stick. Since you have to chain this stunt several times in a row it's important being able to reliably pull that off. After all is said and done I'd give Gun Hohki about 30 points, placing it between an R-Type II 2-ALL and an R-Type 2-ALL.

35: Space Battleship Gomora/Uchuu Senkan Gomora/Bio-Ship Paladin. This is an odd one. The entire game is fairly trivial, then you hit one of the most unsettling final stages (including the boss) in existence. It's a relentless damage race where you have to do just the right things or die in obscurity. The final boss will kill you at least once since the game is simply designed around that fact, and thanks to the health system you also will reach the final boss with merely a sliver of health under ideal circumstances (the more health you have the bigger your ship is, yet only a small ship can evade the laser barrages of the enemies in the stage). You have to meticulously study the stage and learn to move your oil tanker of a vehicle which is a challenge in its own right. I would almost say, however, that this stage can be consistently beaten unless you get really unlucky with the auto aim in the beginning of the stage. It's always going to be close, no doubt. Overall I'd give this one 24-26 points just like Twin Eagle, again with a certain tolerance. I find those memorizers with awkward, huge hitboxes to be much easier than fast, frantic games, but I know some people are the complete opposite when it comes to that.

27: P-47: The Freedom Fighter (with autofire), 1-ALL. This actually is a frantic vertical shooter in disguise of a hori, but it is not too bad. Several extends are scattered throughout the stages, bosses are fairly simple, recovery is always possible. The last stages get pretty rough, you're going to have a generous cushion of lives if you play it right before, though. Moreso a case for the low 20's.

25: US AAF Mustang (with autofire), 1-ALL. The same applies here, except that it is for the most parts much easier than P-47, albeit with a stupid final stage that will decimate your resources. Overall still a fairly manageable game, I'd say about 18 points are adequate.

22: Strike Gunner S.T.G (with autofire). This one I don't understand at all. You simply cannot die in the game and you also have to know which special weapons to use in which stage, other than that it is really simple. The entire game lasts for less than 15 minutes and there's only one dangerous boss fight, everything else can be taken care of with rudimentary movements and the special weapons. Even if you take into account that figuring out which one you have to use might take a while there's not much in the way of dangerous occurences in the game. I'd actually rank it together with some of the easiest games, 5 points or so should suffice.

18: Heavy Unit, 1-ALL. No way this is on the same level as an R-Type or Image Fight 1-ALL. There's one ridiculous section that might randomly kill you, the rest of the game is pretty trivial. The hitbox is astoundingly small and the shield withstands several hits before it finally deactivates. Checkpoint recovery is admittedly almost impossible, outside of that one part that shouldn't be much of a problem. 5 points for this one, too.

16: GunNail (with autofire). Very generous game when not played for score, you get tons of bombs and health. If you use your resources somewhat smart there shouldn't be a single stretch where you have to do much in the way of actual execution. I'd give it about 8 points.

14: Sand Scorpion, 1-ALL. Child's play if you know about not powering up all the way, even without the bomb glitch. Every part that could be minimally tricky is plagued with crippling slowdowns. 3 points.


Games that are ranked too low:

Spoiler: show
30: Raiden II (with autofire), 1-ALL. This objection might partially be based on my difficulties with frantic games, yet I firmly believe that Raiden II is an excruciatingly hard game. And it ranks 4 points below Zing Zing Zip which is kinda-sorta similar in its difficulty (not quite since ZZZ is a resource 'em up while Raiden II is moreso conventional) which I find to be just wrong. If you die anywhere outside the final boss you can almost certainly kiss your credit goodbye. Your ship is very slow, the bullets are insanely fast. Stage 3 of Raiden II is already much harder than most games ever will get, and it only gets meaner from here! I'd give this probably about 35-36 points, I dare say it's about as hard as some of the toughest Irem 2-ALLs, although not as grueling as the Xexex 2-ALL which also features lighning-fast projectiles.

24: Salamander 2 (with autofire), 2-ALL. While the first loop is indeed not too much of a challenge, the second loop is a lot more demanding, namely 2-5 and 2-6, and chiefly the final boss. You can lose a great run due to one bad suicide bullet or tiny error at any given time and since it is strongly advised to play at full speed you're prone to make desastrous input mistakes; it's just an overall hectic, chaotic game. Losing at least one life before starting the loop helps, but you still have to battle enormously aggressive enemies by the end. Playing for 2 loops in general means that you have to stay focused for quite a while. I'd rank this together with a Gradius III 1-ALL, which would mean it gets about 30 points.

12: Dragon Saber. This just might be the most nonsensical choice on the entire list. This is a mean game throughout, it's fairly random as far as the power-ups/extends are concerned, you have to have precise routes for later stages and decent strategies for the bosses, and the final boss as well as the checkpoint leading to him are very tough. I'll concede that checkpoint recovery in general is feasible anywhere (provided you get a good set of power-ups), that doesn't mean it's easy, though. The game is especially nasty at high rank, I don't see myself ever beating the final boss with the lightning dragon. I'd give it about 26 points at least, if not more.

6: Dragon Spirit (with autofire). Almost as silly. Spirit is much easier than Saber, but not that much, and it's most certainly not in the same general category as Thunder Cross or a Life Force 1-ALL. 16-18 points.

I'd also argue that E.D.F. (23), a Parodius Da! 1-ALL (24), Rezon (26) and a V-V 2-ALL (32) are a bit low compared to some of the other games in those regions, but they're not ranked so low that I would outright contest their placement, it's moreso that it feels wrong in relative terms.


Bonus 1: Games I haven't cleared yet but where I can say with certainty that they're placed too low:

Spoiler: show
25: Sexy Parodius (with autofire, including special stage). I cleared this game without the special stage and with a terrible score on the PSP, so I can attest that the 15 points for a survival clear are somewhat reasonable. Considering that you have to play very well in order to even see the special stage, let alone beating the darn thing, this seems to be gravely wrong. The special stage is akin to the most difficult stage in a high loop of a regular Konami game, and since Sexy Parodius will eventually throw suicide bullets at you, anyway, that is saying something! Probably at least a 30, but not nearly as ridiculous as...

23: Gokujou Parodius (with autofire, including special stage). Yeah, right. Goku Paro is even harder than Sexy Paro, and the special stage here is ridiculously hard. Surely in the low- or mid-30's, at least. 13 points without the special stage is also way too low (I've done that, so this is a less speculative statement), it's easier than Parodius Da! this way when not played for score, but not that much. This is still a perfectly sane argument compared to...

14: Same! Same! Same! (with autofire), 1-ALL. :lol: Image I'm going to assume they mean the 1P version since nothing else is specified. I see Same! essentially as a Psikyo 2-ALL, only in one loop. First half of the game requires systematic knowledge of the general gameplay mechanics and level layout, second half is where all hell breaks loose and bullets are just blurry schemes since they move so fast. Checkpoint recovery might not be as bad as it is in something like Gradius III, yet it is still ludicrous. This game is easily at the high end of the 30's. I can only hope they mean the 2P version or something.

Viewpoint seems also too low, I can definitely say it's harder than one loop of the first R-Type due to the perspective and the devious bosses, a 14 doesn't reflect that at all.


Bonus 2: Games/loops I've cleared that are not present on the main list (every game with autofire, of course):

Spoiler: show
40: Tatsujin Ou (-4 for Truxton II)
30: Gradius II, 2-ALL
28: Gradius, 3-ALL
28: Salamander, 3-ALL
28: Life Force, 3-ALL
24: Mr. Heli no Daibouken
22: Salamander, 2-ALL
22: Life Force, 2-ALL
20: Gradius, 2-ALL
20: Mad Shark, 1-ALL
20: Skull Fang, Chase mode, Japanese version
18: Kiki Kaikai, 1-ALL
15: Pulstar
15: Forgotten Worlds
12: Sky Smasher, 1-ALL
10: Hellfire (1P version, 2P version is even easier)
8: Exzisus (for the Japanese version, -1 for the US version; 20 for a 2-ALL of the US version)
2: Scramble, 1-ALL


And that, as they say, is that! Will expand upon this once I got more clears under my belt.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:30 pm 



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Heh, that wiki actually used to have Salamander 2 2-ALL at around 30 or 31 if I recall, which IMO is correct. I don't get why they would drop it that much, it's pretty unforgiving with dying in the wrong spot in loop 2. And the rank gets crazy even in loop 1 if you don't die until 1-5 or 1-6. I'd agree with 30. Also -1 for playing with the pink ship lol :)
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:26 am 



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I agree with Viewpoint it should be in the early/mid 20s at least, the bosses drag way too long and are pretty dangerous for a checkpoint based game.
Darius II and Sengoku Blade 1-All are definitely too high at 24 (and -10 for auto is exaggerated because the difference isn't that big, more like -4/5), i'd put them at 19/20 at best.
I don't know how much harder the japanese version of Thunder Force AC is, but at least he World version is a mere 3 or 4 imo.
Batsugun original should be 3-4 points higher for me, or at least make a distinction of auto/no auto, because an auto-Beltiana makes a huge difference and indeed makes the game quite easy, while a no auto Beltiana is barely more powerful than Iceman.
There is some weird inaccuracy in Raiden DX expert course, it says it's a 24 with no stage 9 and C autofire, however C autofire is only in the western releases and in those Stage 9 is mandatory to clear the game (while in JP version it's an extra stage for a no-miss run)
Also it would be interesting to see Gun Frontier without auto, because playing the game that way is just madness.

Since you named Scramble, have you tried Super Cobra? that game basically is Scramble: hard edition.
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:34 pm 



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Looks like the wiki has been updated and they've finally added DDP SDOJ at the highest rank (50). I'm assuming this is for the Inbachi clear? Has anyone actually beaten Inbachi legit? I've seen a few videos on youtube that supposedly do it but also there is also suspicion of cheating (pause abuse, TAS, etc).
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:13 pm 


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It's says inbachi all and no report of a no continue clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:12 am 


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Perikles wrote:
Here's what I got so far. Three remarks as a preamble:

- In case I forgot to add it somewhere: every value has autofire in mind.

- It seems obvious to me that this guide did not have a lot of scoring in mind, and not only because of the vague nature of defining it as pegboy rightfully pointed out. For example: two of the lowest ranking games are Insector X and Gekirindan (both with 3 points). I would agree with that sentiment, but only for survival. When you play Gekirindan for score you're not allowed to lose a life or to use a bomb while forced to painfully milking some bosses for an extended period of time which can get pretty tricky since the hitboxes are quite big. Insector X's scoring consists of repeating a laughably easy checkpoint over and over. So there's no question which one of the two would be much harder when played for score. There are quite a few similar cases throughout, I just cite this one pars pro toto.

- As always, this is not meant to be objective in any way. Everyone has certain strengths and weaknesses thus it's not easy to matter-of-factly find valid arguments that'll be universally applicable. This is merely how I personally felt about those clears.

These are the games that are ranked too high:

Spoiler: show
41: Twin Eagle: Revenge Joe's Brother. According to this document, Twin Eagle is one of the hardest games out there, especially among the games without additional loops. I can partially understand why that is, it's extremely exaggerated nonetheless. If you use an autofire rate that is about 15Hz or higher the game indeed becomes impossible. It's also one of the most inconsistent games out there, anyone who claims that he's able to beat it consistently is lying. Even if you hypothetically were the best player on earth there's simply nothing you can do when bad luck strikes during the chase sequences. You sometimes dodge incoming shots by moving to one side only to get immediately murdered afterwards by a plane that materializes right behind you. If that happens you're severely underpowered and way too slow for the next stage and might as well reset. The actual stages themselves also have some nasty tricks up their sleeves, the anti-air missile tanks are a colossal threat if you don't know where there are and how to deal with them. Lastly, this is one of those "hitbox 'em ups", where you have to learn how to steer an oversized tin box. All in all a tough game, and one that will demand a player to spam runs even after having studied all important facets. But it's not inherently demanding enough to be this high up. I'd give it 24-26 points, depending on your kusoge tolerance a little bit more.

40: Mahou Keibitai Gun Hohki/Mystic Riders, 2-ALL. Now this one comes with a certain caveat. It is an Irem 2-ALL and as such a veritable challenge. I'd argue that it is not as tough as an Image Fight 2-ALL or an R-Type II 2-ALL, however (which are ranked with 36 and 34 points, respectively). The latter games are much more unforgiving since their second loops are not only extremely hard in general terms, but also feature brutal checkpoints (especially R-Type II). In Gun Hohki you don't have checkpoints and respawn with full power provided you have enough crystals in stock. Now, that doesn't mean you can't lose all your lives in a snap, particularly the second loop's final stage can empty your entire stock in a few seconds. It is generally more lenient, however. My caveat stems from the controls: it is paramount to learn how to constantly and wisely use the spin manoeuvre that'll grant complete invincibility for a while. You cannot hope to beat the second loop without it. I wonder if it is harder to consistently perform this move with arcade controls, I find it not too bad with the regular Xbox 360 pad I'm using, I can imagine it being more tricky with a stick. Since you have to chain this stunt several times in a row it's important being able to reliably pull that off. After all is said and done I'd give Gun Hohki about 30 points, placing it between an R-Type II 2-ALL and an R-Type 2-ALL.

35: Space Battleship Gomora/Uchuu Senkan Gomora/Bio-Ship Paladin. This is an odd one. The entire game is fairly trivial, then you hit one of the most unsettling final stages (including the boss) in existence. It's a relentless damage race where you have to do just the right things or die in obscurity. The final boss will kill you at least once since the game is simply designed around that fact, and thanks to the health system you also will reach the final boss with merely a sliver of health under ideal circumstances (the more health you have the bigger your ship is, yet only a small ship can evade the laser barrages of the enemies in the stage). You have to meticulously study the stage and learn to move your oil tanker of a vehicle which is a challenge in its own right. I would almost say, however, that this stage can be consistently beaten unless you get really unlucky with the auto aim in the beginning of the stage. It's always going to be close, no doubt. Overall I'd give this one 24-26 points just like Twin Eagle, again with a certain tolerance. I find those memorizers with awkward, huge hitboxes to be much easier than fast, frantic games, but I know some people are the complete opposite when it comes to that.

27: P-47: The Freedom Fighter (with autofire), 1-ALL. This actually is a frantic vertical shooter in disguise of a hori, but it is not too bad. Several extends are scattered throughout the stages, bosses are fairly simple, recovery is always possible. The last stages get pretty rough, you're going to have a generous cushion of lives if you play it right before, though. Moreso a case for the low 20's.

25: US AAF Mustang (with autofire), 1-ALL. The same applies here, except that it is for the most parts much easier than P-47, albeit with a stupid final stage that will decimate your resources. Overall still a fairly manageable game, I'd say about 18 points are adequate.

22: Strike Gunner S.T.G (with autofire). This one I don't understand at all. You simply cannot die in the game and you also have to know which special weapons to use in which stage, other than that it is really simple. The entire game lasts for less than 15 minutes and there's only one dangerous boss fight, everything else can be taken care of with rudimentary movements and the special weapons. Even if you take into account that figuring out which one you have to use might take a while there's not much in the way of dangerous occurences in the game. I'd actually rank it together with some of the easiest games, 5 points or so should suffice.

18: Heavy Unit, 1-ALL. No way this is on the same level as an R-Type or Image Fight 1-ALL. There's one ridiculous section that might randomly kill you, the rest of the game is pretty trivial. The hitbox is astoundingly small and the shield withstands several hits before it finally deactivates. Checkpoint recovery is admittedly almost impossible, outside of that one part that shouldn't be much of a problem. 5 points for this one, too.

16: GunNail (with autofire). Very generous game when not played for score, you get tons of bombs and health. If you use your resources somewhat smart there shouldn't be a single stretch where you have to do much in the way of actual execution. I'd give it about 8 points.

14: Sand Scorpion, 1-ALL. Child's play if you know about not powering up all the way, even without the bomb glitch. Every part that could be minimally tricky is plagued with crippling slowdowns. 3 points.


Games that are ranked too low:

Spoiler: show
30: Raiden II (with autofire), 1-ALL. This objection might partially be based on my difficulties with frantic games, yet I firmly believe that Raiden II is an excruciatingly hard game. And it ranks 4 points below Zing Zing Zip which is kinda-sorta similar in its difficulty (not quite since ZZZ is a resource 'em up while Raiden II is moreso conventional) which I find to be just wrong. If you die anywhere outside the final boss you can almost certainly kiss your credit goodbye. Your ship is very slow, the bullets are insanely fast. Stage 3 of Raiden II is already much harder than most games ever will get, and it only gets meaner from here! I'd give this probably about 35-36 points, I dare say it's about as hard as some of the toughest Irem 2-ALLs, although not as grueling as the Xexex 2-ALL which also features lighning-fast projectiles.

24: Salamander 2 (with autofire), 2-ALL. While the first loop is indeed not too much of a challenge, the second loop is a lot more demanding, namely 2-5 and 2-6, and chiefly the final boss. You can lose a great run due to one bad suicide bullet or tiny error at any given time and since it is strongly advised to play at full speed you're prone to make desastrous input mistakes; it's just an overall hectic, chaotic game. Losing at least one life before starting the loop helps, but you still have to battle enormously aggressive enemies by the end. Playing for 2 loops in general means that you have to stay focused for quite a while. I'd rank this together with a Gradius III 1-ALL, which would mean it gets about 30 points.

12: Dragon Saber. This just might be the most nonsensical choice on the entire list. This is a mean game throughout, it's fairly random as far as the power-ups/extends are concerned, you have to have precise routes for later stages and decent strategies for the bosses, and the final boss as well as the checkpoint leading to him are very tough. I'll concede that checkpoint recovery in general is feasible anywhere (provided you get a good set of power-ups), that doesn't mean it's easy, though. The game is especially nasty at high rank, I don't see myself ever beating the final boss with the lightning dragon. I'd give it about 26 points at least, if not more.

6: Dragon Spirit (with autofire). Almost as silly. Spirit is much easier than Saber, but not that much, and it's most certainly not in the same general category as Thunder Cross or a Life Force 1-ALL. 16-18 points.

I'd also argue that E.D.F. (23), a Parodius Da! 1-ALL (24), Rezon (26) and a V-V 2-ALL (32) are a bit low compared to some of the other games in those regions, but they're not ranked so low that I would outright contest their placement, it's moreso that it feels wrong in relative terms.


Bonus 1: Games I haven't cleared yet but where I can say with certainty that they're placed too low:

Spoiler: show
25: Sexy Parodius (with autofire, including special stage). I cleared this game without the special stage and with a terrible score on the PSP, so I can attest that the 15 points for a survival clear are somewhat reasonable. Considering that you have to play very well in order to even see the special stage, let alone beating the darn thing, this seems to be gravely wrong. The special stage is akin to the most difficult stage in a high loop of a regular Konami game, and since Sexy Parodius will eventually throw suicide bullets at you, anyway, that is saying something! Probably at least a 30, but not nearly as ridiculous as...

23: Gokujou Parodius (with autofire, including special stage). Yeah, right. Goku Paro is even harder than Sexy Paro, and the special stage here is ridiculously hard. Surely in the low- or mid-30's, at least. 13 points without the special stage is also way too low (I've done that, so this is a less speculative statement), it's easier than Parodius Da! this way when not played for score, but not that much. This is still a perfectly sane argument compared to...

14: Same! Same! Same! (with autofire), 1-ALL. :lol: Image I'm going to assume they mean the 1P version since nothing else is specified. I see Same! essentially as a Psikyo 2-ALL, only in one loop. First half of the game requires systematic knowledge of the general gameplay mechanics and level layout, second half is where all hell breaks loose and bullets are just blurry schemes since they move so fast. Checkpoint recovery might not be as bad as it is in something like Gradius III, yet it is still ludicrous. This game is easily at the high end of the 30's. I can only hope they mean the 2P version or something.

Viewpoint seems also too low, I can definitely say it's harder than one loop of the first R-Type due to the perspective and the devious bosses, a 14 doesn't reflect that at all.


Bonus 2: Games/loops I've cleared that are not present on the main list (every game with autofire, of course):

Spoiler: show
40: Tatsujin Ou (-4 for Truxton II)
30: Gradius II, 2-ALL
28: Gradius, 3-ALL
28: Salamander, 3-ALL
28: Life Force, 3-ALL
24: Mr. Heli no Daibouken
22: Salamander, 2-ALL
22: Life Force, 2-ALL
20: Gradius, 2-ALL
20: Mad Shark, 1-ALL
20: Skull Fang, Chase mode, Japanese version
18: Kiki Kaikai, 1-ALL
15: Pulstar
15: Forgotten Worlds
12: Sky Smasher, 1-ALL
10: Hellfire (1P version, 2P version is even easier)
8: Exzisus (for the Japanese version, -1 for the US version; 20 for a 2-ALL of the US version)
2: Scramble, 1-ALL


And that, as they say, is that! Will expand upon this once I got more clears under my belt.


I'm curious as to what the differences are on the 1p and 2p Hellfire...

Thanks in advance, and thank you very much for compiling the 16 bit console difficulty ranking as well, very useful!


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:59 am 


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GGA_HAN wrote:
I'm curious as to what the differences are on the 1p and 2p Hellfire...

The 1P version has checkpoints, the 2P version instant respawns. There may be other miniscule differences, those are negligible, though (if they even exist).


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:23 pm 


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still no rank for sdoj expert?


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