Mushihimesama on Steam

[Cagar]

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[Bananamatic]

Also, please keep in mind that I am using a Dell S2716DG monitor. Depending on which monitor you use, you could have more or less lag.

I played both on a CRT and while futari felt literally flawless sdoj feels so bad that I just decided to drop it entirely until it gets emulated well or a better port

I assume futari on 0 lag setting is literally lagless while sdoj has around 4 frames

[CKR]

Also, keep in mind that my input lag testing is imperfect. I do not have a fancy super high frame rate camera to get greater accuracy. More importantly, I do not have a way to tell for sure when the input has been registered.

Some people have a red light that confirms the input. My way is consistent though. I register the input as soon as the button has been fully depressed. I could be off by 1/2 a frame, but all my results will be consistent.

Another variable is if the input lag varies across game states. I only test the first 30 seconds of gameplay. I am adding these disclaimers, so that everyone understands that these results are close but not perfect.

[ardiel]

Why is it that shmups seem have input lag so often? Or CAVE just not know how to program games anymore?

Dude. CAVE (and shmups in general) have low input lag.
Street Fighter V, a competitive real-time fighting game that just got released this year has fucking 8 frames of default input lag, and 4-5 is considered the norm in the fighting game genre.

It's pretty damn disgusting and a lot of people don't even understand how big impact it has on the games and their skill potential.

Fighters are a bit different though. In a fighter you want to be in contact range and one frame makes a difference there. In a shmup you don't want to be in contact range.

1 frame makes a difference in shmups, fighters and every game, sure. If a bullet is 1 frame away from your hitbox and you have a 1 frame lag, you won't be able to dodge it. But realistically speaking you probably wouldn't have the reaction time to dodge it in 1 frame even without lag.

In Futari Black Label a bullet that is 1 frame away from killing you is already almost completely overlapping your hit box visually. A bullet that is 4 frames away from killing you is just beginning to contact your sprite, if it's a standard enemy bullet. Fast bullets will be worse - you need to know how you're going to avoid them before they even come near you.

[Squire Grooktook]

But realistically speaking you probably wouldn't have the reaction time to dodge it in 1 frame even without lag. \

This is not right: the example assumes the bullet materialized next to you with 1 frame of reaction. In reality, a very common situation, is that a bullet will already have been in existence for 10-15 frames or more (about the limit of human reaction), but the player didn't become aware of its existence (in other words, reacted, processing the information on screen) until a frame or two before it hits, in which case a frame or two of input lag absolutely does make a difference.

This happens all the time. Not everyone is aware of it though, because they're usually distracted by play to think about these things, but if you watch for it, its terribly common. And yeah, you don't want this situation to happen, and try to strategize to avoid it as much as you can, but its always going to happen some time or other. Even if we take RNG bullet patterns out of the equation, the fact that nobody is perfect is enough to provoke such a situation.

Anyway, to answer the original questions, fighting games, shmups, and competitive games in general get input lag talk more simply because they are the genres where it matters to people. Simple as that.

[ardiel]

. If a bullet is 1 frame away from your hitbox and you have a 1 frame lag, you won't be able to dodge it. But realistically speaking you probably wouldn't have the reaction time to dodge it in 1 frame even without lag. \

This is a false comparison: the example assumes the bullet materialized next to you with 1 frame of reaction. In reality, a very common situation, is that a bullet will already have been in existence for 10-15 frames or more (about the limit of human reaction), but the player didn't become aware of its existence until a frame or two before it hits, in which case a frame or two of input lag absolutely does make a difference.

This happens all the time. Not everyone is aware of it though, because they're usually distracted by play to think about these things, but if you watch for it, its terribly common. And yeah, you don't want this situation to happen, and try to strategize to avoid it as much as you can, but its always going to happen some time or other. Even if we take RNG bullet patterns out of the equation, the fact that nobody is perfect is enough to provoke such a situation.

Anyway, to answer the original questions, fighting games, shmups, and competitive games in general get input lag talk more simply because they are the genres where it matters to people. Simple as that.

Like I said, when the bullet is 1 frame from hit reg it is literally in the center of your sprite. I was just checking frame by frame a bit ago so these are actual numbers. If you miss seeing a bullet for that long it is probably going to kill you no matter what. In fact you might not even see the bullet at all before it kills you if you haven't noticed it up until that point. This actually happens to me some times because I have some blind spots in my vision.

[Squire Grooktook]

In fact you might not even see the bullet at all before it kills you if you haven't noticed it up until that point.

I am talking about shmups and input lag in general, not nessicarily in Mushi, but still, I think your misunderstanding how reactions actually work. Think of it this way:


frame 0: bullet is spawned, at a speed and distance that it will impact the player in 17 frames, if they don't move

[TIME IT TAKES FOR THE PLAYER TO MENTALLY PROCESS EXISTENCE AND NATURE OF BULLET]
frame 1:
frame 2:
frame 3:
etc. etc.
frame 14:
frame 15:
[/TIME IT TAKES FOR THE PLAYER TO MENTALLY PROCESS EXISTENCE AND NATURE OF BULLET]

//the player is now potentially aware of the bullets existence and nature, where it was coming from and where its going, the direction needed to avoid it, etc. if he was not distracted and was processing all information on screen optimally. HOWEVER, if there are more then 1-2 frames of input lag (depending on how we define input lag) then he STILL won't be able to dodge the bullet, even if he presses in the correct direction on frame 16).

frame 16: (DOES HE MOVE??)
frame 17: impact. salvation or death

So yes, input lag absolutely does matter for dodging.

[ardiel]

In fact you might not even see the bullet at all before it kills you if you haven't noticed it up until that point.

I am talking about shmups and input lag in general, not nessicarily in Mushi, but still, I think your misunderstanding how reactions actually work. Think of it this way:


frame 0: bullet is spawned, at a speed and distance that it will impact the player in 17 frames, if they don't move

[TIME IT TAKES FOR THE PLAYER TO MENTALLY PROCESS EXISTENCE AND NATURE OF BULLET]
frame 1:
frame 2:
frame 3:
etc. etc.
frame 14:
frame 15:
[/TIME IT TAKES FOR THE PLAYER TO MENTALLY PROCESS EXISTENCE AND NATURE OF BULLET]

//the player is now potentially aware of the bullets existence and nature, if he was not distracted and was processing all information on screen optimally. HOWEVER, if there are more then 1-2 frames of input lag (depending on how we define input lag) then he STILL won't be able to dodge the bullet, even if he presses in the correct direction on frame 16).

frame 16: (DOES HE MOVE??)
frame 17: impact. salvation or death

So yes, input lag absolutely does matter for dodging.

15 frames is a really long time when there's only 60 of them in a second. I can typically react in 3 or 4 frames but not much faster. A bullet that is 15 frames off is quite a distance away unless it is a very slow bullet (and if it is then what is the trouble?)

If the player doesn't react fast enough they still get hit even if lag is zero. All lag does is offset the relative position. If you have 4 frames lag you need to think 4 frames ahead.

[mamboFoxtrot]

Wouldn't input lag in shmups be more about the feel of your controls and trying to time planned movements, rather than just reaction time? I mean, when I go from playing a Mario or Mega Man game on a CRT to an HDTV (even for actual HD games like PS3 Mega Man 9), the display lag makes the game feel like my feet are glued to the floor, and otherwise completely fucks with my timing for basically everything. I can barely platform up basic steps with that kind of lag. I haven't played enough zero-lag shmups on CRTs to get that kind of feel, and I've honestly never noticed any lag in the PC port of Mushi (which is the only way I've played the game), but I can imagine how much it would screw with me if I was used it.


on a completely different note, I somehow only noticed today that the graphic for your hitbox during focus movement has not been upgraded like all the other visuals. WEIRD.

[Squire Grooktook]

I can typically react in 3 or 4 frames but not much faster.

Then you are either a robot or an alien (or the "el" in your name means you're an angel or something), because this is physically impossible. 10-15 frames is the absolute limit of human reaction, according to modern science, and is a very small amount of time. Anything faster is a prediction or a guess, not a reaction. Do some research.

All lag does is offset the relative position.

This is also not quite true, and the reality is a fair bit more complex, but at this point I'm not going to argue.

I don't mean to sound cold or insulting, but this is just not going to go anywhere if you believe a human can react at 3/4 frames.

Wouldn't input lag in shmups be more about the feel of your controls and trying to time planned movements, rather than just reaction time?

It's both, but reaction is more noticeable due to its nature.

[ardiel]

Wouldn't input lag in shmups be more about the feel of your controls and trying to time planned movements, rather than just reaction time? I mean, when I go from playing a Mario or Mega Man game on a CRT to an HDTV (even for actual HD games like PS3 Mega Man 9), the display lag makes the game feel like my feet are glued to the floor, and otherwise completely fucks with my timing for basically everything. I can barely platform up basic steps with that kind of lag. I haven't played enough zero-lag shmups on CRTs to get that kind of feel, and I've honestly never noticed any lag in the PC port of Mushi (which is the only way I've played the game), but I can imagine how much it would screw with me if I was used it.


on a completely different note, I somehow only noticed today that the graphic for your hitbox during focus movement has not been upgraded like all the other visuals. WEIRD.

Most games feel muddy and juddery to me already. Mushi is one of the few that don't.

Like Touhou with and without vsync patch, I don't perceive the difference as a lag, but as a smoothness. Unpatched Touhou has some frame judderyness as if it's not really playing at 60 FPS even though it says it is, so visually it feels less responsive to me but it's mostly an optical trick. I don't notice a significant difference in the actual time it takes to do things but it does feel less sticky.

Then you are either a robot or an alien, because this is physically impossible. 10-15 frames is the absolute limit of human reaction, and is a very small amount of time. Anything faster is a prediction or a guess, not a reaction. Do some research.

You're thinking of being able to tell the difference between frame rates which is not the same thing. Here a frame is a measure of time, and also of speed which is divisible by time and therefore divisible by the frame rate.

Look here. This bullet is approximately 15 frames away. I measured. This should be a very leisurely dodge. If you can't flat out see this coming and just move out of the way, there is something wrong.


Edit:
Also remember that when you're playing a shmup and you've played it for a long time, you don't have cold flat-footed reactions anymore, you have hot reactions based off heuristics and memory, so you can respond much faster than you can realize because you don't have to do it consciously, and it is neither a prediction or a guess.

Keep in mind that the game is feeding you info the entire time and even if you don't consciously see everything, your subconscious sees more than you think after a while. Pretty soon you start doing stuff without even thinking which can end up being pretty fast.

[Bananamatic]

Wouldn't input lag in shmups be more about the feel of your controls and trying to time planned movements, rather than just reaction time?

It's both, but reaction is more noticeable due to its nature.

lol no
the input lag just makes the controls feel like shit and it's hard to properly move where you want
it becomes even more noticeable when the game slows down which happens a lot in harder modes

you really shouldn't ever be in a situation where 3 frames less to react makes a difference, you have to know where you're supposed to go ahead of time

in saidaioujou hibachi is where the input lag makes the least difference due to the fight being very speed based and not needing super accurate dodges, where it really sucks is when you're scoring and you end up with some extreme slowdown, at that point it becomes 5x more apparent and the ship moves with a 100-200 ms real time delay, good luck moving accurately with that

no point in putting effort into a game where you can't play at 100% due to incompetent programmers

[Squire Grooktook]

you really shouldn't ever be in a situation where 3 frames less to react makes a difference

You shouldn't, but it can and will happen. In some games more than others.

You're thinking of being able to tell the difference between frame rates which is not the same thing.

No, that's not what I was talking about.

I'm talking about 60 fps frame updates, where game logic and screen display is updated 60 times per second. If you can block a (completely random) 3-4 frame standing light punch in a fighting game, on reaction, than you better submit your body to science, because you are not human.



^^IE, to make a 3 frame reaction in ST (or any shmup/fighter, since pretty much all of them move at 60 fps game logic), you'd have to start blocking when his fist is withdrawn behind his head. If you can even see that. Good luck.

[ardiel]

you really shouldn't ever be in a situation where 3 frames less to react makes a difference

You shouldn't, but it can and will happen. In some games more than others.

You're thinking of being able to tell the difference between frame rates which is not the same thing.

No, that's not what I was talking about.

I'm talking about 60 fps frame updates, where game logic and screen display is updated 60 times per second. If you can block a (completely random) 3-4 frame standing light punch in a fighting game, on reaction, than you better submit your body to science, because you are not human.



^^IE, to make a 3 frame reaction in ST (or any shmup/fighter, since pretty much all of them move at 60 fps game logic), you'd have to start blocking when his fist is withdrawn behind his head. If you can even see that. Good luck.

I can see all four frames. I can't react that fast randomly, but I can see it.

Remember though that shooters aren't really random. Bombing in a tight spot for example is way different than blocking Guile's punch because it doesn't come out of nowhere. It's more like stopping a clock at .5 seconds - it is easier because you can see the clock running. You have a lead in and can heuristically identify when things have gone bad and therefore you bomb.

I can solve a scrambled Rubik's cube in approx 30 seconds and a lot of that involves seeing the next move while I'm doing the previous one. I can make between 3 and 5 turns per second and WHILE it is turning I can see what color is coming up and already know what the next turn will be. It is not really a prediction because I don't necessarily know what is coming up until I see it, and it is not a guess because I know what I'm seeing, it's recognition.

[Squire Grooktook]

I can see all four frames. I can't react that fast randomly, but I can see it.

Yes, that was my point. If you can react to that, you aren't human. 3-4 frame reactions are not human. Anything else is prediction or guessing.

Remember though that shooters aren't really random.

But that's not true. Lots of shooters use RNG for bullet patterns. You can easily create a random spray of bullets that will be different each time.

Sure, it's not truly random, as the rng will be determined by some obscure seed within the games or computers programming, but the seed will be impossible for the player to predict, manipulate, or control (well, assuming you base the seed on the right factor). So effectively, you will need to react to such a thing, as there is no way of predicting it.

This is what I have been talking about. At times where you cannot predict the outcome (either because of programmed in randomness, or because you simply haven't memorized certain elements yet) input lag absolutely does make a crucial difference in improvisational dodging.

[ardiel]

I can see all four frames. I can't react that fast randomly, but I can see it.

Yes, that was my point. If you can react to that, you aren't human. 3-4 frame reactions are not human. Anything else is prediction or guessing.

Remember though that shooters aren't really random.

But that's not true. Lots of shooters use RNG for bullet patterns. You can easily create a random spray of bullets that will be different each time.

Sure, it's not truly random, as the rng will be determined by some obscure seed within the games or computers programming, but the seed will be impossible for the player to predict, manipulate, or control (well, assuming you base the seed on the right factor). So effectively, you will need to react to such a thing, as there is no way of predicting it.

This is what I have been talking about. At times where you cannot predict the outcome (either because of programmed in randomness, or because you simply haven't memorized certain elements yet) input lag absolutely does make a crucial difference in improvisational dodging.

Then some things should seem impossible yet they somehow are. I did pretty well in Ketsui the first time I played it for example and I made a lot of dodges that should in theory be "impossible" but yet I somehow made it to stage 4 before I had to start feeding it credits. Can you explain that?

[Squire Grooktook]

Then some things should seem impossible yet they somehow are. I did pretty well in Ketsui the first time I played it for example and I made a lot of dodges that should in theory be "impossible" but yet I somehow made it to stage 4 before I had to start feeding it credits. Can you explain that?

Because in Ketsui most of the bullets take well over 10-15 game updates to reach you? It's not rocket science. Can't think of anything in the game that moves fast enough to be un-reactable. Even 2nd loop psyikyo bullets technically take like 20-30 game updates or so to move from the top of the screen to the bototm.

[ardiel]

Then some things should seem impossible yet they somehow are. I did pretty well in Ketsui the first time I played it for example and I made a lot of dodges that should in theory be "impossible" but yet I somehow made it to stage 4 before I had to start feeding it credits. Can you explain that?

Because in Ketsui most of the bullets take well over 10-15 game updates to reach you? It's not rocket science. Can't think of anything in the game that moves fast enough to be un-reactable. Even 2nd loop psyikyo bullets technically take like 20-30 game updates or so to move from the top of the screen to the bototm.

That's right, and was also my point.

What happened to "what if you can't see all the bullets in time"?

[Squire Grooktook]

What happened to "what if you can't see all the bullets in time"?

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean or what you're trying to argue at this point. I think we may just be on two different wavelengths here.

*edit* I think I understand now. You're saying, how do people die if things are reactable? The answer is that just because you can react to something, doesn't mean you will. 10-15 frame reactions are considered top of the line, and require a great degree of focus and concentration, that omnipresent wildcard known as "skill". You need to be in the zone to consistently make reactions like that. Average reactions when you're not pushing things to the limit can be much, much slower. If you doubt that, try your hand at The Millia Blocker or something. Consistently perfect reactions are fucking hard.

The point is, when bullets are flying all over the place and you can't control the situation, every frame matters while trying to react. I don't understand what you see worth disagreeing with in that statement?

[ardiel]

What happened to "what if you can't see all the bullets in time"?

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean or what you're trying to argue at this point. I think we may just be on two different wavelengths here.

*edit* I think I understand now. You're saying, how do people die if things are reactable? The answer is that just because you can react to something, doesn't mean you will. 15 frame reactions are considered top of the line, and require a great degree of focus and concentration. You need to be in the zone to consistently make reactions like that.

True but isn't being in the zone the default state of these kinds of shooters?

[Squire Grooktook]

True but isn't being in the zone the default state of these kinds of shooters?

No, it's the rarest possible state, just the one your aiming for.

If you can consistently react at 10-15 frames you are on fucking fire, mang.

Like I said, try the Millia Blocker or some other reaction test if you doubt me. I can get consistently 22-28 frames today, and thats for a simple up/down reaction, when there aren't ten bajillion other things flying around and factors your mind is being urged to take care (as there would be in a shmup). "simple" reactions are always easier than "choice" reactions as well.

[Cagar]

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[ardiel]

True but isn't being in the zone the default state of these kinds of shooters?

No, it's the rarest possible state, just the one your aiming for.

If you can consistently react at 10-15 frames you are on fucking fire, mang.

Like I said, try the Millia Blocker or some other reaction test if you doubt me. I can get consistently 22-28 frames today, and thats for a simple up/down reaction, when there aren't ten bajillion other things flying around and factors your mind is being urged to take care (as there would be in a shmup). "simple" reactions are always easier than "choice" reactions as well.

I'm getting about 22 avg.
If I don't look at the screen I pull 17s and even 15s some times. More prone to mistakes though because I want to block everything.
The hard part of that isn't reacting, it's knowing when not to react.

Also my fastest legit reaction so far was a 9.

[Squire Grooktook]

If I don't look at the screen I pull 17s and even 15s some times.

We were never talking about predictions or guesses. I've said this at least 3 times. *pulls out hair*

Also "knowing when not to react" is itself a reaction. This is also a part of why "choice reactions" are more difficulty, since you have to be able to mentally process whether to move left, right, or stand still. And these can become harder and harder when there are more factors piled on to eachother, and more possible choices.

Like I said, I don't know why you'd take issue with the basic common sense statement that "input lag makes reactive dodging harder", but I think we've exhausted the topic.

[Also my fastest legit reaction so far was a 9.

That was a guess which you thought was a reaction. Or you're not human. Or the flash was running at half speed.

[ardiel]

If I don't look at the screen I pull 17s and even 15s some times.

We were never talking about predictions or guesses. I've said this at least 3 times.

Also "knowing when not to react" is itself a reaction. This is also a part of why "choice reactions" are more difficulty, since you have to be able to mentally process whether to move left, right, or stand still. And these can become harder and harder when there are more factors piled on to eachother.

Like I said, I don't know why you'd take issue with the basic common sense statement that "input lag makes reactive dodging harder", but I think we've exhausted the topic.

It's not a prediction. I'm using my peripheral vision to zone out so that I don't over think it. I only need to see a frame which indicates what attack it is and I do that best by not trying to see it.

And really from my view you started this discussion.

[Squire Grooktook]

And from my point of view the jedi's are evil.

I'm done.

[ardiel]

And from my point of view the jedi's are evil.

I'm done.

At least we agree on something.

Look up Kyudo to understand the philosophy of being able to act without reacting.

Munen musou.

[Nameschonvergeben]

tfw not a shmupmonk

[Shepardus]

Humans don't react in 3 or 4 frames but that doesn't mean 3 or 4 frames of input lag isn't going to make a difference. If a bullet is 15 frames away from me, it takes me 3 frames to move out of its way once I start moving, and I react to it in 12 frames, then I'm barely on time. If you add any input lag to that I'm dead. It's not that hard to understand. Even if you've memorized the entire game you probably use visual or auditory cues to time stuff and laggy controls reduce the buffer you have. And that's not even going into how terrible it feels for the movement you see to trail behind your button presses (especially bad if you're pressing and releasing buttons frequently). This forum almost unanimously dislikes inertia in movement controls, and controls ridden with input lag bear significant similarities. If you think it's more complicated than that you're over thinking it.

[Squire Grooktook]