Why don't you try hard?

[CWM]

I like Dark Souls a lot, but when I want to replay it, I need to impose some harsh restrictions on myself, or else it becomes too easy to be fun. Maybe Dark Souls would've benefited from a scoring system of some sort?

There is something to be said about score systems in bullet hells games often being unnecessarily complicated and completely disconnected from survival-focused play, but that doesn't mean the very idea of scoring is somehow flawed.

[Obscura]

Many of those people would probably say the same about older shmups too. If that's how they enjoy the game the most, then so be it, but it doesn't have to be the way you find enjoyment in the game. Someone liking a game for a certain aspect that you don't care for doesn't void it of all other qualities.

The difference with old shmups is that there was no pretense of competition in the first place. Most had nearly no scoring system at all, and many had silly counterstops that would have never happened had the devs even given the tiniest amount of shit as to whether the game was "competitive" or not.

Nowadays, we're to the point where people who purport to be fans of the genre will only play them if there's competition and say that 99% of a game's content is in these competitive aspects.

I would take Futari Black, Eschatos, or Mars Matrix over any classic hori or vert. Any single one. The only thing that comes close in my book is Gate of Thunder.

Eschatos is a particularly bad example here, given that, graphics aside, that game is so old-school that it makes Tiger Heli and Xevious look downright progressive, lol. Fun game, but it's more in line with Centipede than anything Cave, Treasure, Takumi, or Raizing ever made. Or even Toaplan, Irem, Konami, or Seibu.

Taking Futari BL over Hishouzame, Daisenpuu, Samex3, Kyukyoku Tiger, Air Gallet, or Raiden II/DX is utterly mystifying to me, on every possible level -- the whole gimmick of the Mushi Original modes is that they play like watered-down Raiden (according to Ikeda, Mushi was originally meant to be a Toaplan tribute, and then Maniac and Ultra mode were added late in development when they decided that a Cave game needed a danmaku mode). Unless the old "people like Futari BL because they can clear it!" canard is true.

There is something to be said about score systems in bullet hells games often being unnecessarily complicated and completely disconnected from survival-focused play, but that doesn't mean the very idea of scoring is somehow flawed.

No one said it was, but when the sales pitch goes from "this game is fun to play!" to "this game requires a lot of skill to compete in!", and the games are built to facilitate competition more than to be fun on their own, then something has gone horribly wrong. Making score a part of the game was something that was figured out as long ago as Galaga (score extends every X points instead of "two score extends at values X and Y" or "no score extends, period"), but it seems that only Toaplan, Raizing, and Treasure were smart enough to learn from that.

[Special World]

Eschatos is a particularly bad example here, given that, graphics aside, that game is so old-school that it makes Tiger Heli and Xevious look downright progressive, lol. Fun game, but it's more in line with Centipede than anything Cave, Treasure, Takumi, or Raizing ever made. Or even Toaplan, Irem, Konami, or Seibu.

This is a dramatic overstatement of the facts but either way Eschatos is a modern shooter (literally) that benefits greatly from its scoring system but is completely playable without it.

[Obscura]

Eschatos is a particularly bad example here, given that, graphics aside, that game is so old-school that it makes Tiger Heli and Xevious look downright progressive, lol. Fun game, but it's more in line with Centipede than anything Cave, Treasure, Takumi, or Raizing ever made. Or even Toaplan, Irem, Konami, or Seibu.

This is a dramatic overstatement of the facts but either way Eschatos is a modern shooter (literally) that benefits greatly from its scoring system but is completely playable without it.

Scoring itself isn't new, and "score bonus based on how fast you dealt with the screen/wave" is about as old as score systems get.

The games of that "golden era" between "screen doesn't scroll" and "autism simulator" were characterized partially by the fact that they de-emphasized raw score-chasing competition compared to, say, Galaga. Maybe something should be learned from this.

[pestro87]

how 2 revive stg

1. Devs need to look at the CPS2 hardware for inspiration so that every future shmup PCB release comes with an attached Score Suicide Battery which will implode if a player has been ignoring scoring for too long and thus the board will be forever lost. If this condition is met on the console ports of said game, it will format the hard drive on your system and if that fails for whatever reason it will simply explode.

2. If you insert another credit while the continue screen is displayed, the rank will multiply by one million

3. If you fail to milk at least one boss for more than one attack cycle, you will simply die after destroying the last boss and you won't get to input your initials

4. Every bomb that you drop for survival purposes increases your hitbox

5. If you beat a stage without tap dodging, the input directions will be reversed on the following stage

CAVE hire me

[Squire Grooktook]

Although I think you take it too far Obscura, you do have some points. I think some people have developed tunnel vision, to the point that they can't appreciate a game for its mechanics or playstyle unless it conforms to a very orthodox style of competitive play they've become accustomed to. Not everyone of course, but some people.

That being said, competitive scoring systems aren't bad. Main reason being because they're optional. So if they make the game more fun: great! more stuff to do for various players who are interested. If not? Still great! You can just ignore them.

Even though I think a lot of great things were left behind when the age of bullet hell started (where the FUCK are my environmental hazards and quirky Irem style weapons and mechanics?), at the same time I think a lot of the things that movement introduced were massive improvements for the genre. Now if only we could get the best of both worlds...Oh right, Qute. Speaking of:

Eschatos is a particularly bad example here, given that, graphics aside, that game is so old-school that it makes Tiger Heli and Xevious look downright progressive, lol. Fun game, but it's more in line with Centipede than anything Cave, Treasure, Takumi, or Raizing ever made. Or even Toaplan, Irem, Konami, or Seibu.

Are you on drugs?

Eschatos has a scoring system with an extremely high skill ceiling, two shot modes, a shield system more nuanced and versatile then anything Takumi ever designed, all of which requires fine mastery for survival and scoring. Less progressive then Tiger Heli...WHAT???

I like Dark Souls a lot, but when I want to replay it, I need to impose some harsh restrictions on myself, or else it becomes too easy to be fun. Maybe Dark Souls would've benefited from a scoring system of some sort?

Nah. I just use Humanity as an artifical "lives" counter, and try to 1cc. Keeps the tension up perfectly.

One thing I don't agree with is (as verbalized a while back by Bananamatic in another thread, I think) "without a scoring system, you might as well sell the game in a week after you 1cc it". To me, the point of these games is tension and excitement, so as long as the game is sufficiently challenging (and is random enough not to be completely controllable) then playing through even a million times should still be as fun and exciting. I revisit Ghouls and Ghosts/Daimakaimura to 1cc/1lc every now and then, and it never stops being fun. And that's because it's a tense, random, fast paced, and masterfully designed run and gun shooter.

[Obscura]

Are you on drugs?

Eschatos has a scoring system with an extremely high skill ceiling, two shot modes, a shield system more nuanced and versatile then anything Takumi ever designed, all of which requires fine mastery for survival and scoring. Less progressive then Tiger Heli...WHAT???

All of this other than "two shot modes" and "a shield system" can be found in Galaga.

Eschatos is effectively a single-screen shooter of the Space Invaders/Galaga/Centipede school with a pretty movie played in the background. Score bonuses for finishing a stage/wave quickly date back to the earliest days of arcade games, and "kill every enemy" is as time-honored as it gets. It's a well-built and quite-good single-screen shooter, don't get me wrong, but it's a more primitive game than even Defender.

[Squire Grooktook]

but it's a more primitive game than even Defender.

Are you drunk?

Eschatos has far more enemy types then Defender, Galaga, Space Invaders, Tiger Heli etc. A lengthier game with a very deep scoring system where tighter movements and masterful use of the shield can boost your multiplier. It has the hitbox and complex bullet patterns of a danmaku game, fused with a clever amount of macro dodging and unique enemy movements to make it feel oldschool while retaining the bullet hell appeal. etc. etc.

All of this other than "two shot modes" and "a shield system" can be found in Galaga.

Galaga does not have the no escape = +1 multiplier system.

Galaga doesn't have bullet hell style bullet patterns.

Galaga doesn't have 1/5th as many unique enemy types.

Galaga doesn't let you move vertically or diagonally

Galaga doesn't have environmental hazards (crystal maze)

Galaga doesn't have Taito Homing Lasers.

Galaga doesn't have a danmaky style pixel-ish sized hitbox.

Galaga doesn't have bosses.

Galaga doesn't have secret score items hidden in the scenery.

Galaga doesn't have perspective shifts.

Galaga doesn't have a nuanced shield system and two weapons.


I don't know what you're on that you think Tiger Heli, a game based on simply moving and shooting, is more progressive then a game that has a unique weapon and shot mechanic, an in depth scoring system, danmaku, scoring items, bosses, etc. etc.

[Ed Oscuro]

Tiger Heli has autobombs with a hitbox though, take that fancy newfangled shooters

also, it's too hard to try hard

[disCorder]

I like Dark Souls a lot, but when I want to replay it, I need to impose some harsh restrictions on myself, or else it becomes too easy to be fun. Maybe Dark Souls would've benefited from a scoring system of some sort?

Speedrunning, baby!

[CWM]

I like Dark Souls a lot, but when I want to replay it, I need to impose some harsh restrictions on myself, or else it becomes too easy to be fun. Maybe Dark Souls would've benefited from a scoring system of some sort?

Speedrunning, baby!

I have. Speedrunning Souls suffers from the same problem as scoring in some bullet hells though, where it's a fairly arbitrary sequence of actions that is almost completely disconnected from how the game is played normally. Doing a very specific jump that lets you skip half of Duke's Archives is not really what I find fun about DS.

[Eaglet]

drunk

and

on drugs

Anyways, this discussion is stupid. Scoring systems add depth to a game, artificial or not. People have always (since Invaders) competed in the mastery of a game. More depth leads to more complexity and possibility of mastery. This is the reason advanced (more or less) scoring systems got to be such a big part of the genre from the early nineties and onwards.
Take Garegga for an example (always the perfect example) where a concept that always seemed stupid in the past - a huge amount of lives from set extends after a long period of great play (think old Toaplan games played perfectly or why not Gradius?) - got turned into something that affected the; difficulty of the game and the possibility for even more point gain and risk/reward mastery.
No longer was it just a stupid amount of extends that only served one purpose - giving you the option to maaaybe get back on track if you fuck something up after a long period of play - but something that effected the entire structure of the game.

[NTSC-J]

The difference with old shmups is that there was no pretense of competition in the first place.

???

The high score concept changed in 1978 with the release of Taito's shoot 'em up Space Invaders, where high scores were determined by gamers playing for as long as they could stay alive as high scores kept rising.[1] This was made possible due to being the first game to save the player's score.[3] The astounding popularity of Space Invaders stemmed from players returning to beat the current high score, as players could now compete with each other over who had the highest score.

I had more to say about Obscura's posts but each time I reread them I get even more confused. Not even sure what reaction gif to post I'm at such a loss.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think the thing about scoring in many older shmups that Obscura mentions (Side Arms, Gun Smoke, etc.) is that it was competitive and it was there to track your mastery of the game...it's just that the skill ceiling was a lot lower. You no miss-no bombed the game and killed every single enemy? Congrats, 100% mastery (unless we're talking Gradius with endless loops). Nowerdays shmups are designed with much higher skill ceilings so that years of play could potentially be rewarded, as well as to more finely appraise the value of a performance.

I think he does have a point that if you judge a game primarily based on the level of competition that its scoring system allows, you're potentially missing out on a lot of games that have fun mechanics and interesting things going for them but aren't all that competitive. I also abjectly disagree that competition is the only thing that can extend the replay value of a shmup after mastery. Replaying for the heck of it can still be exciting and fun, and there's plenty of ways to design a game that's still nervy and tense even when it's been learned inside and out.

Also Obscura, if you're reading this, I apologize if I was too harsh about the Eschatos thing. I certainly don't mean to be insulting. That was the most bizarre statement I've ever encountered on this forum though. My mind is still partially blown nearly 24 hours later.

[Obscura]

I'm not offended; I'm just kind of surprised that the idea that Eschatos is more akin to the ancient single-screen shooters than anything made in the past 30 years is in any way controversial.

(Also, Centipede had vertical/diagonal movement, and there was some other Space Invaders clone I can't remember the name of that protected you with a huge destructible hemispherical shield when you weren't shooting, so those kinds of mechanics aren't newer than Tiger Heli either. As far as I know, you do have to forward in time a little bit, to the early "scrolling" era, to get multiple shot-types that cover different areas; I guess I'll give you that one.)

[qmish]

But why keep bullying post-1993 shooters?

[Obscura]

2015 - 18 > 1993.

Why do I disparage the recent crop? Because the genre reached a point where, in a genre built around excitement and adrenaline, the most respected developer thought that adding a "slow down the game" button was a good idea because it added scoring depth. Because, in a genre built around excitement and adrenaline, this same developer started adding intentional slowdowns to their games, in contrast to the healthier ages when slowdowns were considered bad and the versions that had the least slowdown were the most praised.

I disparage the recent crop because the genre went off-the-rails and forgot what made it good in the first place, in the chase of facilitating competition in single-player games.

[Shepardus]

I don't like slowdown either but I don't think it kills the fun that much, and I don't think it's as opposed to "excitement and tension" as you claim it is. And I don't see where you get the idea that it's there to add to the scoring depth, it's there so CAVE can cram more bullets onto their outdated hardware because they got the idea that more bullets is better. Only Espgaluda and Espgaluda 2 actually have a "slow down the game" button. Outside of CAVE's post-Mushihimesama output and their direct imitators I can't even think of anything with slowdown as essential to gameplay. There are still many shmups without slowdown (Touhou, most Touhou knockoffs, Eschatos, Crimzon Clover, Alltynex Second, Dariusburst, etc.), I don't see how you can take CAVE in particular and take it as representative of all or even the majority of modern shmups, even if it is the most respected commercial developer (and I even had to include "commercial" because Touhou's probably more influential nowadays).

[Obscura]

If the slowdown isn't intentional but is just the result of them cramming more bullets onto weak hardware, why do the X360 ports emulate the slowdown, and why does the player-base whine when there's a bit less on the ports than on the original hardware?

The slowdown of these games is very much an intentional "feature".

I'm aware that only the Galudas have a "slow down the game button" (insert joke about Futari BL and SDOJ ship type D here), but the fact that Cave thought it was a good idea at all in any shmup ever says everything you need to know about their mindset these days.

Oh, and Crimzon Clover has slowdown.

[qmish]

why r u speaking for all?

[Shepardus]

I agree that it's an important part of those games, but it's not there because it enhances scoring depth. The 360 ports emulate the slowdown because without it the games become much more difficult than they were intended to be (even if you're not playing for score), and the playerbase complains when the emulated slowdown is inaccurate because it makes the port less comparable to the original hardware. So to that extent yes, you could say that the slowdown is there for an accurate scoring experience, but I think that misses the point as it's also there for an accurate survival experience. The slowdown originally appeared because of their hardware but it stayed in for the 360 ports because after designing your bullet patterns around that slowdown you can't simply remove the slowdown and expect the bullet patterns to still work well.

The doujin version of Crimzon Clover has intentional slowdown, but World Ignition doesn't as far as I know, unless you count the slow motion at the end of a stage as a boss explodes. The NESiCA version also has slowdown but that's because it's the same as World Ignition except it's running on a computer that can't handle all the stars.

[Giest118]

I happen to enjoy my bullet-time and anyone who doesn't is lame and a hipster.

[Obscura]

According to Bananamatic, CCWI Unlimited is about 10 minutes longer than original due to slowdown, and I know I've seen slowdown in Boost when I've gotten the rank really high and filled the screen with suicide bullets (and I think I've also seen it in Original mode while in Double Break in a crowded section, although i could be getting this confused with my much more extensive experiences with the doujin version).

If the point of playing Cave's games was enjoyment rather than competition, why would people care about an "accurate" survival experience, instead of just praising a theoretical slowdown-less X360 version for being better than the original? And, if the bullet patterns are designed around slowdown, then you can't say that the only reason they have slowdown is because of the hardware.

[Shepardus]

I believe Bananamatic was talking about the NESiCA version when he said Unlimited's about 10 minutes longer. If the PC (Steam/GOG) version is slowing down it's because your computer's struggling with the game.

People would care about an "accurate" survival experience because if everything were turned up 30-50% faster (which is pretty much the case in the most slowdown-heavy games) many bullet patterns that were appropriately paced before become too unfairly fast for people to react to, difficulty spikes appear where there shouldn't be spikes, etc. Just take the PS2 port of Ibara as an example, the last part of stage 3 was always hard but without the slowdown it becomes borderline impossible without bombs. It may be "technically" better without slowdown but that doesn't make it more fun and fair. Even if players aren't competing for scores they still probably want to be able to beat the game and do so without having the game run 50% faster than it was designed for (even if some people do play Touhou at 90fps...).

Just because the bullet patterns are designed around slowdown doesn't mean it's not there because of the hardware, if the hardware never slowed down the bullet patterns would have been designed differently (probably slower because they can't rely on the hardware to slow down the bullets). Saying that the slowdown is because of the bullet patterns correctly draws a connection between the two but mixes up cause and effect. They kept the slowdown in for the port because they can't easily unlink the two, but that doesn't imply causation one way or the other.

[Obscura]

Slowdown isn't directly equivalent to slowing down a bullet pattern, since the former slows down your ship as well, allowing for more precise movement but less macrododging.

If they just wanted lots of bullets, DOJWL and Ketsui prove that Cave were certainly capable of creating dense patterns on weaker-than-SH3 hardware with little to no slowdown. In fact, according to one of the smuplation interviews, when Cave's programmers first started working with the SH3 hardware, they were amazed at how many bullets they could put on-screen with no slowdown... and yet, every time there's more than about 10 bullets on-screen, Futari BL slows down, while, in contrast, DOJ Hibachi's final pattern, on weaker hardware, doesn't.

(I also am pretty sure the slowdown I've seen in CCWI is software driven rather than hardware driven, since the game will run at full-speed but a choppy FPS instead of slowing down entirely if there's something in the background that's causing the game to not run like it should.)

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm not offended; I'm just kind of surprised that the idea that Eschatos is more akin to the ancient single-screen shooters than anything made in the past 30 years is in any way controversial.

(Also, Centipede had vertical/diagonal movement, and there was some other Space Invaders clone I can't remember the name of that protected you with a huge destructible hemispherical shield when you weren't shooting, so those kinds of mechanics aren't newer than Tiger Heli either. As far as I know, you do have to forward in time a little bit, to the early "scrolling" era, to get multiple shot-types that cover different areas; I guess I'll give you that one.)

Eschatos is basically a danmaku shooter (with everything that that genre brought, including the scoring system) that has an "oldschool" feel thanks to comse clever mechanical, enemy, and pattern design. It adds a ton of things from the danmaku genre (bullet patterns, scoring concepts, hidden medals, etc.)

It also has the level design, enemy variety, length, and bosses of Gradius/R-Type/Toaplan/whatever age, so how you could say it has less then Tiger Heil when it does all they do and more (from the danmaku age) is beyond me.

It's like saying "yeah, skyrim is less progressive then Quest on the Atari. All you have to do is take away every single thing Skyrim does except for the ability to walk..."

[Shepardus]

(I also am pretty sure the slowdown I've seen in CCWI is software driven rather than hardware driven, since the game will run at full-speed but a choppy FPS instead of slowing down entirely if there's something in the background that's causing the game to not run like it should.)

I'm pretty sure you're thinking about the doujin version (which definitely has software slowdown, and it even tells you when that slowdown is kicking in); CC:WI definitely slows the game down if your computer isn't performing well enough, there's even bars at the bottom-right measuring your slowdown that will invalidate your score for online submission if there's too much slowdown.

[Obscura]

Eschatos is basically a danmaku shooter (with everything that that genre brought, including the scoring system) that has an "oldschool" feel thanks to comse clever mechanical, enemy, and pattern design. It adds a ton of things from the danmaku genre (bullet patterns, scoring concepts, hidden medals, etc.)

It also has the level design, enemy variety, length, and bosses of Gradius/R-Type/Toaplan/whatever age, so how you could say it has less then Tiger Heil when it does all they do and more (from the danmaku age) is beyond me.

It's like saying "yeah, skyrim is less progressive then Quest on the Atari. All you have to do is take away every single thing Skyrim does except for the ability to walk..."

"Kill every enemy" and "bonus points for clearing levels fast!" dates back to the absolute earliest arcade games.

I had forgotten about the hidden medals -- I think that's the only time you actually interact with the scrolling plane at all? Nonetheless, that's not a danmaku trait; that's a "vertical scroller" trait. That *does* put it a bit newer-school than Centipede and Galaga, but not newer than the '80s Toaplan, and the lack of interaction with the scrolling plane aside from that (read: no ground enemies) combined with the short "wave-based" levels and no hori-style obstacles marks it as being a more "old-school" game than nearly any scrolling shooter you care to name.

[Legendary Hoamaru]

Advanced mode doesn't have any emphasis on killing enemies fast, and also adds bonus for milking enemy bullets with the shield. You can also kill enemies with point items that you milk, which I'm not sure has been done in a game before.

[CWM]

Yeah, the only instances of slowdown I recall from CC:WI (no experience with the doujin version) are when you go into break mode and when a boss explodes - both of which are there for the "cool" factor, and don't really influence gameplay in any real way. I'd be surprised if the game actually has slowdown I haven't noticed, as I'm normally very sensitive to it.

About slowdown in Futari BL, it seems to me like it's mostly caused by spawning tons of gems rather than bullets themselves. Some bullet patterns are obviously artificially slowed down (don't really know why, it makes no sense tbh), but it's hard to tell if that's the case for the denser ones. I do agree that slowdown sucks in general, though I wouldn't be so eager to bring the first Espgaluda into this - Kakusei may very well be intended as a survival mechanism first (and the fact that the game in general is much easier than its contemporaries would support this). I'd argue that scoring in Esgpaluda is very "natural" in the sense that you can easily transition from using gems for survival to using them for score as you get better, as opposed to most Cave scoring systems where you need to do completely new arbitrary stuff if you want to score.