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 Post subject: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:52 am 


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You don't own Eschatos > Why don't you own Eschatos

You own Eschatos > Why aren't you playing Eschatos right now

You're playing Eschatos right now > I too am playing the single greatest scrolling shooter of all time right now
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:06 am 


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Reasons why Eschatos is the greatest:

- Cannot accurately be called a traditional shooter, a manic shooter, or a bullet hell because it is all of these and also sometimes it is Galaga
- Has the single most serene and awe-inspiring moment of any shooter ever
- Despite generally looking kinda basic it is probably the only game I've ever played to truly justify its HD-ness to me as a player
- Has three game modes that all kick ass
- That spider boss, that mirror boss, those hand bosses, that heart boss, those dual pendant bosses, that face boss
- Comes with two free games that are also the greatest (unless you buy the Ginga Force bundle, in which case it comes with three games that are the greatest)
- Has probably the best soundtrack of any game not named Chrono Trigger or Chrono Cross
- Actually makes you think about what you're doing instead of just holding the shot button like a blind dumb baby
- Doesn't require a technical manual to understand scoring
- Novel shield mechanic cuts through the bullshit
- Sweeping cinematic angles add flair without causing unfair deaths
- Has difficulty modes for everyone, from actually easy to super crazy and only included as a joke, and also has an endless mode that loops forever because it's endless I think
- Amazingly diverse bullet patterns and tons of enemies all the time
- Really makes you think about life
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:19 am 


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Anyone who doesn't like Eschatos/Qute is a plague on our society and should be destroyed.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:22 am 


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LordHypnos has Mars Matrix.
Furry Fox Jet Pilot has Raiden.
And I guess SpecialWorld has Eschatos.


I'm not playing Eschatos right now because I've been barely playing any video games, and I feel the stronger urge lately to prove to myself that Ironclad wasn't a waste of money.

Last time I played it, I did like it, but sometimes the shield feels like maybe it's a little too good. At least for the early-game.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:24 am 


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mamboFoxtrot wrote:
LordHypnos has Mars Matrix.
Furry Fox Jet Pilot has Raiden.
And I guess SpecialWorld has Eschatos.

Add me to the Eschatos defense force! I liked the idea Qute had for Ginga Force but the language barrier hampered my enjoyment of the game. I really want Natsuki Chronicle to be a back-to-the-roots game more akin to Eschatos.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:30 am 


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mamboFoxtrot wrote:
Last time I played it, I did like it, but sometimes the shield feels like maybe it's a little too good. At least for the early-game.


"Shooting" is a bit a "too good" for most shmups early game :3

But balancing offense and defense with the shield is an art form. It's not just a defensive tool, it's an offensive one as well, and has a variety of uses. You will need to master it if you want to survive the game, let alone score.

Also you will have to work a similar mastery of the shield even in the early game if you want to score.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:02 am 


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Sexatos
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:37 am 


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Eschatos is inspirational to me.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:39 am 


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Eschatos and the WS games included with it are good stuff. I like what I played of Ginga Force too.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:52 am 


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Special World wrote:
- Has the single most serene and awe-inspiring moment of any shooter ever


The ascension into space? Theres so many awe inspireing moments in this game though seriously.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:13 am 


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Yup, this game really was a good surprise the first time i played it because i didn't knew what to expect. Highly recommended.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:20 am 


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I'm not playing Eschatos because I'm playing JSS

Quote:
Has the single most serene and awe-inspiring moment of any shooter ever

wat.

Quote:
Has probably the best soundtrack of any game not named Chrono Trigger or Chrono Cross


Thunder Force? Sapphire? A variety of other games that i won't list to avoid making this tldr?

Quote:
Actually makes you think about what you're doing instead of just holding the shot button like a blind dumb baby


Which is what most good shmups do these days, nothing special.

Quote:
Really makes you think about life


Go play M̶a̶r̶s̶ ̶M̶a̶t̶r̶i̶x̶ Hellsinker.


[spoiler]I don't have anything against Eschatos, its okay.[/spoiler[
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:38 am 


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Captain wrote:
Quote:
Actually makes you think about what you're doing instead of just holding the shot button like a blind dumb baby


Which is what most good shmups do these days, nothing special.


The thing about Eschatos is it's characterized far more by enemy movement patterns then enemy bullet patterns, which is a rarity and very special in this day and age of copy-paste design danmaku shooters.

The more funky enemy designs and patterns alone forces you to put a bit more thought into how you move and shoot for offensive reasons. Combine that with the close range wide shot, the dearth and speed of enemy waves, and the offensive/defensive shield, and you have a balancing of offense/defense that's totally unlike anything else out there. Maybe Alltynex Second comes close, but it's no Eschatos.

Eschatos is far more then okay, it's a masterpiece.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:18 pm 


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ACSeraph wrote:
The ascension into space? Theres so many awe inspireing moments in this game though seriously.

Ya. Gets me every time.

Captain wrote:
Which is what most good shmups do these days, nothing special.[


Judgement Silversword is a great game, but Eschatos absolutely eclipses it imo.

Like Grooktook was saying, it goes way further than just about any game in making the player consider their own movement and shooting. In most shooters I've played, there's an emphasis on dodging but very little emphasis on shooting. This is the case with pretty much every single bullet hell game; if there is shot-switching, it's often done in service to scoring rather than offense/defense, and in the games that do try to make shooting meaningful, a lot of them only apply their mechanics or alternate weapons to very specific scenarios. In Escahtos it's a constant back-and-forth between wide and straight shots, while employing the shield as needed. And this is often dictated by enemy patterns and movement, which is not something I can say about many/most modern shooters, where the weapon spray takes up half the available screen space.

Qute went even farther in this regard with Ginga Force, though the way they did it means the game has a larger barrier to entry (learning when to use secondary fire) and feels less perfectly balanced during some boss battles. With Eschatos, you've got everything you need right there, and it all fits together perfectly, and it's all very apparent to the player without introducing the meaningless barriers that so often plague this genre.

Also, scoring in shooting games often just feels so arbitrary. Like, why would somebody who's not interested in scoring actually do [thing]? That might sound like a moot point to somebody on these boards, but it's absolutely a barrier to more people playing these games, and hence, more great shooting games being made overall. There are a number of systems that just work—Dodonpachi comes to mind, in that a player wants to rapid-fire popcorn enemies and laser larger enemies, and that's generally what the scoring has you do. Something like Ketsui, as good as the game is for score play, just doesn't work on a fundamental level because... why the hell should a player be asked to get close to enemies? Why does that make sense at all? The fundamentals of scoring are based around arbitrary concerns that were only included for scoring purposes.

Eschatos, on the other hand, says "kill all the enemies, and kill them fast." That's a core concern, and Eschatos goes about it in a way that's interesting, original, and fun.

Note: I don't dislike games like Raiden Fighters Jet or Ketsui or whatever that have weird, built up scoring systems. I just think there's something to be said about games that are fun at face value, and in which that face value fun translates naturally into scoring.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:31 pm 


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Also Captain, if you have favorite games that you feel I absolutely need to play (and won't cost me $200 to do so) by all means, list them. I try to play as many shooters as I can, but with this genre there are a lot of options, and things that look pretty weak can actually be incredible, and vice versa.

See: Eschatos, which I thought looked like junk, and I only bought because it had a highly acclaimed Wonderswan shooter on-disc, and which then rose to become perhaps my single favorite scrolling shooter of all time.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:40 pm 


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I sold mine. I got a good price.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:58 pm 


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If there's one thing that makes me feel kind of weird, it's "arbitrary" scoring systems.

I love Garegga and Batrider because, as much as they've got tons of weird complex shit to learn, a lot of your points just come down to blowing parts off bosses, grabbing all the medals, bombing scenery, etc. Eschatos follows this.

Also I don't really understand why anyone would pick JSS over Eschatos. JSS is good and all, but IMO Eschatos is a totally polished refinement of all the best ideas and concepts present in JSS.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:07 pm 


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Satan wrote:
I sold mine. I got a good price.

From: Satan

Squire Grooktook wrote:
Also I don't really understand why anyone would pick JSS over Eschatos. JSS is good and all, but IMO Eschatos is a totally polished refinement of all the best ideas and concepts present in JSS.


I think this is true and not true. While I think Eschatos is better and more refined in pretty much every way, I also think that JSS's scoring system is pretty original and cool and that would really be the decider for a lot of people right there. Because while Eschatos refines the wide/straight/ shield mechanic, it doesn't have the same proximity scoring of JSS.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:38 pm 


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Because HERE COMES THE JUDGE
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:03 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:05 pm 



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Eschatos is awesome, and one of the few modern shmups with music I actually like. None of the CAVE stuff really brought the hype for me musically, but this, this is just something else. It took me back to a time when shooter music had real soul, and I'd happily put it up with the best from the 16-bit era. As a shmup the action is about as furious as you can get and a nice change from typical danmaku spam. By God those Galaga sections are incredible 8)

There also wasn't any lolis, which was amazing.

I remember when this was about to drop, Bullet Soul was due to release around the same time and people on the form thought (rightfully, judging by early footage of both in action) that BS looked like it was going to be the better game. In the end it was the other way round.

Although I loved Bullet Soul anyway, despite being seen as a bit shit in some ways. Still haven't picked up Infinite Burst :?
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:24 pm 


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I think Bullet Soul could have very easily been a better game than it was. The bullet canceling needed to be better tied to the scoring system, and the enemies needed more health so that the bullets would actually have a change to reach the player. As things turned out, it was just a snoozer because the bullets were always cancelling right away. And when they didn't they'd take you by surprise and you'd get killed in a really stupid way. The game probably would have been better with faster, sparser bullets. So you'd get the full effect of actually dodging things, but then also get the thrill of the cancels.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:37 pm 


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stryc9 wrote:
brought the hype



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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:41 pm 


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LONG LIVE M-KAI
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:01 pm 


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Quotes illustrating why M-Kai is the greatest, courtesy of blackoak

Quote:
M-KAI: I wanted to make a game that didn't feel like a strict puzzle game, something that wouldn't require studying. I think there were many STGs like that in the 80s.

M-KAI: I'm careful about not making the enemy bullets too slow. Also, I try to make the player ship's explosion as flashy as possible, so that it feels good even when you die and the game is over.

M-KAI: I think the appeal there is that the bomb allows you to skip parts you aren't good at for now, and you get to see a little bit further into the game. It also gives a sense of accomplishment for skilled players who get through without using bombs. I think its good when a game can allow for that division between "bombs saved for points" and "bombs for escaping." Bombs are also supposed to be flashy weapons that add a certain flavor to the presentation of the game, so I think its a waste when you're penalized for using them, and the bomb button simply becomes the "thou shalt not press" button.

M-KAI: For arcade danmaku shooting, my skill is such that only rarely do I achieve glory.

M-KAI: The idea for that came from our consideration of the diversity of modern shooting players' tastes. In the same vertical STG, you can have a completely different experience depending on simple things: many or few enemies? a big or small hitbox? a fast or slow ship? many or few buttons? a charge shot, or close-range attacks? etc. And in this way players themselves have different preferences we wanted to cater to. So our intent was to make Advanced and Original almost opposite in their style. Our staff really liked Original mode, but I felt it was missing something with regard to modern STGs, so we added more score items and such. But even with games that emphasize scoring, we know that different players enjoy or get bored by different things. I think that rather than just adding difficulty adjustments, making games with multiple choices in the overall game style is one way to expand the horizons of STG in the future.

M-KAI: There's been a trend to make recent STGs more and more visually flashy, but that isn't the element we focused on with Eschatos. We wanted it to feel fun while you played it, so that before you knew it, you were deeply hooked on the gameplay. So for the scoring system and such, we worked hard to make it something players could grasp as they play. In contrast we didn't spend an undue amount of time on special effects, and we hope people play it and think, "wow, someone is still making games like this!"

—What is the ideal STG to you?
M-KAI: One that continues to surprise and delight you when you least expect it.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:01 pm 


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I like you Special World. Here's hoping to a Steam release!
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:03 pm 


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I like you too, but... Advanced mode isn't dumb!
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:15 pm 


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Maybe it's mostly the design of the bosses, but I thought Eschatos didn't have anything as interesting as final boss rush of JSS with Divine Flow, Mitsurugi, etc. Ginga Force has a ton of crazy boss fights which remind me more of JSS than Eschatos (hard score attack is a blast). Apart from the boss fights I like Eschatos over the other M-KAI shooters.

A small nitpick but I always found it weird in Eschatos that there is some frameskip upon player death (and maybe some other explosions?) making it a little harder to see exactly what killed you. The game seems to have no performance problems otherwise & usually STGs opt for slowdown instead of skipping frames. Maybe something weird with my setup though, having trouble seeing it on youtube replays.


Last edited by Zaarock on Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:17 pm 


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Hehe, its interesting that it was the "original" mode designed at first according to the blackoak translation. You can really see this in some sections of the game, with waves being absolutely trivial in Advanced (albeit with max power), where in Original you would need an F-bomb. I do like the sense of power though, that MAX power wide shot is the shit.

But to me, nothing beats the simplistic, no bullshit Original mode.

Time Attack though, that mode needs to be explored some more. I wonder if that could be put on AGDQ.

Quote:
Maybe it's mostly the design of the bosses, but I thought the bosses in Eschatos didn't have anything as interesting as final boss rush of JSS with Divine Flow, Mitsurugi, etc. Ginga Force has a ton of crazy boss fights which remind me more of JSS than Eschatos (hard score attack is a blast). Apart from the boss fights I like Eschatos over the other M-KAI shooters.


Oh man, if Natsuki Chronicle combined the best parts of Eschatos (the stages) and the best parts of Ginga Force (the bosses) and made it a standard arcade shooter, I think it would be the best of the genre.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:01 pm 


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I never really understood people's complaints about the Eschatos bosses. I remember hearing somebody say they "weren't like the Judgement Silversword patterns," and that Ginga Force was a return to form. Personally I love the bosses in both games, though I think I might like Eschatos's better just for how fast and furious they are.
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