RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

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banjoted
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by banjoted »

SPM wrote:
banjoted wrote:I work for a developer/publisher. Y'all are VASTLY oversimplifying the time/cost required for digital publishing. You don't do it unless you're as close to certain as possible that you'll get a good return.
Could you elaborate a bit more? It's okay if you don't, but it would help to understand these situations
I don't really want to go into details, but I will add that those who accuse any publisher of "leaving money on the table" have no idea what they're talking about. Even if the release of a game on any given digital platform is "free" (insofar as there's no upfront fee) there's still costs involved. Chief among them is the manhours it'll take to execute. If it'll take two people on £60k per year one month to do it... well, you can do the maths. All publishers will look at every possible outlet but once they've factored in production costs, viable sale price, predicted sales, platform cut, marketing and all manner of other expenses, unless that projected number is well in the green and the risk is virtually nothing, they won't do it - PARTICULARLY as we're talking about smaller labels who are far less able to take a loss making product on the chin than the Ubisoft/EA/Activisions of the world.

The idea that any decision is taken out of some sort of spite toward the audience and not with a resolute eye on the ROI is mental.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by spmbx »

So, got the b-copy in today. No clue why it is a b-copy, i can't see any flaws. I'm guessing collectards are more critical than i am.
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Redfox
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Redfox »

banjoted wrote:
SPM wrote:
banjoted wrote:I work for a developer/publisher. Y'all are VASTLY oversimplifying the time/cost required for digital publishing. You don't do it unless you're as close to certain as possible that you'll get a good return.
Could you elaborate a bit more? It's okay if you don't, but it would help to understand these situations
I don't really want to go into details, but I will add that those who accuse any publisher of "leaving money on the table" have no idea what they're talking about. Even if the release of a game on any given digital platform is "free" (insofar as there's no upfront fee) there's still costs involved. Chief among them is the manhours it'll take to execute. If it'll take two people on £60k per year one month to do it... well, you can do the maths. All publishers will look at every possible outlet but once they've factored in production costs, viable sale price, predicted sales, platform cut, marketing and all manner of other expenses, unless that projected number is well in the green and the risk is virtually nothing, they won't do it - PARTICULARLY as we're talking about smaller labels who are far less able to take a loss making product on the chin than the Ubisoft/EA/Activisions of the world.

The idea that any decision is taken out of some sort of spite toward the audience and not with a resolute eye on the ROI is mental.
Given all the shovelware on the eshop I find that to be a weak argument. These guys have done the hard part, they made a great game and ported it to switch. If I were in a two man team in some bedroom and I did that I’d get it out as much as possible since the work is finished, the game is ready. It’s like running a marathon only to quit at the last mile. I can’t understand it. If it were me, and I made a game like Razion, id put it out everywhere I could. Money is money.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Jonpachi »

I agree with the above. I've been in game development for 15+ years, and I can say with utter confidence that putting out a digital copy of something is far easier and cheaper. They've already gone through the whole certification process with Nintendo, so they're sitting on a solid build that has been approved by the hardware manufacturer. THAT'S where the real hidden cost of console dev lies, but if you've already cleared that hurdle there's no reason to not put it out digitally.

It's hard then to get away from the idea that they WANT scarcity, and don't want to give up the allure and value of their niche releases. They're clearly profitable as-is, but their fear would seem to be in losing their ability to do tiny print runs of physical games if players can get their fix elsewhere.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

Given they won't ship to many countries either, UK included (the post-Brexit fun customs/tax fun is shared by everyone and was documented since middle of last year, so not a surprise and plenty of places still ship to us... some just choose not to), it's a pretty poor situation. It's not people wanting a cheaper digital release, it's that the physical runs aren't accessible so a digital release wouldn't leave customers out.

The (unplayable for many thanks to crash bugs) Dreamcast release of NEO XYX never got rectified nor apologised for outside of a few Facebook comments, so I think there's a bit of burned customer faith there. And Hucast is related to them whether they like it or not, and copped a lot of flak for various (entirely understandable) reasons. This is... not helpful. While I appreciate news of a Fast Striker re-release, it's likely I'm not going to able to buy one. Even throwing some over the fence to Playasia, as they've done before, would be an improvement.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Redfox »

Jonpachi wrote:
It's hard then to get away from the idea that they WANT scarcity, and don't want to give up the allure and value of their niche releases. They're clearly profitable as-is, but their fear would seem to be in losing their ability to do tiny print runs of physical games if players can get their fix elsewhere.
Exactly!
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Terramax »

banjoted wrote: Even if the release of a game on any given digital platform is "free" (insofar as there's no upfront fee) there's still costs involved. Chief among them is the manhours it'll take to execute. If it'll take two people on £60k per year one month to do it... well, you can do the maths. All publishers will look at every possible outlet but once they've factored in production costs, viable sale price, predicted sales, platform cut, marketing and all manner of other expenses, unless that projected number is well in the green and the risk is virtually nothing, they won't do it - PARTICULARLY as we're talking about smaller labels who are far less able to take a loss making product on the chin than the Ubisoft/EA/Activisions of the world.
If only there was some way that customers could financially support the devs and publishers directly. I dunno, imagine if you could use an internet site to ask interested customers to give a downpayment on the game, prior to release. Like, you could even set a target amount of money needed to fund it.

Heck, you could even create tiers where, if significantly more than the minimal amount needed is met, the devs could add in extra perks.

............nah, silly idea.
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banjoted
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by banjoted »

Terramax wrote:
banjoted wrote: Even if the release of a game on any given digital platform is "free" (insofar as there's no upfront fee) there's still costs involved. Chief among them is the manhours it'll take to execute. If it'll take two people on £60k per year one month to do it... well, you can do the maths. All publishers will look at every possible outlet but once they've factored in production costs, viable sale price, predicted sales, platform cut, marketing and all manner of other expenses, unless that projected number is well in the green and the risk is virtually nothing, they won't do it - PARTICULARLY as we're talking about smaller labels who are far less able to take a loss making product on the chin than the Ubisoft/EA/Activisions of the world.
If only there was some way that customers could financially support the devs and publishers directly. I dunno, imagine if you could use an internet site to ask interested customers to give a downpayment on the game, prior to release. Like, you could even set a target amount of money needed to fund it.

Heck, you could even create tiers where, if significantly more than the minimal amount needed is met, the devs could add in extra perks.

............nah, silly idea.
Actually to be fair I do wonder why more of these smaller companies don't try crowdfunding from time to time.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by schleichfahrt »

Terramax wrote:nah, silly idea.
Personally I'd say: why feed 3rd party platforms like kickstarter and indiegogo, if you can just as well do full preorder runs of your stuff on your own site? (which is what they do and always have done).

It seems to work for them, despite apparent failures on the way like the XYX dreamcast release.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by MintyTheCat »

banjoted wrote: Actually to be fair I do wonder why more of these smaller companies don't try crowdfunding from time to time.
Yes, indeed that fool Fonzie of Paprium had some ridiculous statements about Kickstarter but he's a criminal.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by MintyTheCat »

schleichfahrt wrote:
Terramax wrote:nah, silly idea.
Personally I'd say: why feed 3rd party platforms like kickstarter and indiegogo, if you can just as well do full preorder runs of your stuff on your own site? (which is what they do and always have done).

It seems to work for them, despite apparent failures on the way like the XYX dreamcast release.
Kickstarter works both ways: the customers can pledge and know that their cash is safe as the KS company will not release unless things are met, and the devs know that they will get their payment if all targets are met along the way.

A guy or company running operations from their own website that is independent will get some ideas of the level of interest but there is little reassurance - which is what happened with Water Melon and scumbag Fonzie.
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schleichfahrt
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by schleichfahrt »

MintyTheCat wrote: Kickstarter works both ways: the customers can pledge and know that their cash is safe as the KS company will not release unless things are met
I pledged to about 50ish projects on kickstarter over the years, only about half of them have delivered (funny enough: most "hardware"-style things have, only very few of the software style projects)

Nothing is "safe" there. It's not an escrow.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

Hucast used Kickstarter for Redux and that was a nightmare:

* Game was a polished rehash of Dux not a true sequel
* Shipped in a weird blocky resolution which was fixed later but revision discs ran out before everyone who had received the first run got the chance to request one - you had to request it rather than it being automatically sent to backers
* Part of the Kickstarter was a lifetime store discount which was quickly backed out

Nah it can have a place but probably not here, there's bad sentiment still.
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Terramax
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Terramax »

schleichfahrt wrote: Personally I'd say: why feed 3rd party platforms like kickstarter and indiegogo, if you can just as well do full preorder runs of your stuff on your own site?
Because THAT is why they're creating extremely limited runs on their games. Using crowdfunding means they can *theoretically* manufacture the EXACT amount of copies as per consumer demand. There's no cap on crowdfunders, as far as I'm aware.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Johnpv »

Not going digital and only super low physical print runs basically means anyone who discovers this maybe a year or 2 after release is either going to go ohh well never mind then, or just pirate it. IMHO not going digital is some really really really not forward thinking.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Rastan78 »

Don't worry you can just go on ebay and get a cart for a thousand bucks down the road. So what if it's a game that could've just been a 9.99 download.

Normally we think of physical media as good for preservation and digital as transient. Ironically if a cart is super rare and overpriced, in practical terms it really does nothing in terms of preservation for the average player.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by spmbx »

Yeah what do you think is better for preservation, some asshole with a room full of shelves or a redump set? :roll:
Anyway, on the subject of razion, it's not really a keeper as far as i'm concerned. Was ok to have a go at it but other than that...
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Terramax
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Terramax »

Hey guys, it seems Shmups Junkie recently did an interview with the devs (link below) where they confirmed more copies next year, if they are to be believed. It was not put up digitally as, apparenty, Gunlord X did so poorly. Again, it's up to the individual to decided whether this is likely the truth. As for me, I had been meaning to download Gunlord anyway, so this video gave me an excuse as any to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3IYRMsA6bw
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Angry Hina »

Hi folks, have not read much about the leveldesign here, so I want to ask some things which are not that clear for me at the moment.

Recently cleared the game on novice, were you can fire much more hyper shots to get around the most difficult passages. Especially bosses. Here's my run, if you are interested: https://youtu.be/EUch9vK9yhM

1) Now Iam trying to clear the normal mode and was able to get to the last boss with one credit. But on this one I need at least 2 lives. The circular shot bullets have just really small gaps and its not really clear for me, how they should be dodged. Theoretically its possible, by flying backwards, to fit exactly in the bullet gap but it seems to be nearly pixel perfect and in most of the times I got hit by the first or the last bullet of the gap.

Can someone give me an advice, how to get past this bullet patterns? The hyper is not fast enough recharged to safe you from every bullet spray.

2) The second question is about the scoring: How important is it to collect every cube and how important is it to collect them as fast as possible? So the question is: can someone give me a ranking of the things you should do or shoulndt do with the cubes and the hypers to get the most extra lives?
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Angry Hina »

So, just now I did it. But I had to loose that life on the final boss and needed a bit luck on the last phase with the high count of the sphere turrets. Not recorded though. It would feel a bit more safe to have a proper strategy for this boss.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by bebop78 »

It looks like this just came up on switch online store £17.95
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Ghegs »

So it did, that's good to see. Weird that they haven't mentioned this in their social media yet.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

bebop78 wrote:It looks like this just came up on switch online store £17.95
Will the Switch port of Razion be on the USA region Switch eShop site as well?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by DenimDemon »

PC Engine Fan X! wrote:
bebop78 wrote:It looks like this just came up on switch online store £17.95
Will the Switch port of Razion be on the USA region Switch eShop site as well?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
It's already under the Coming Soon section. Price in dollars is 19.95.



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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Darkseed_5150 »

Fuckin A.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Austin »

That's good news. Glad to see they came around on it.
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by EmperorIng »

Yeah, I had already admitted I wanted to pick it up, so I am glad I have the option now. Hope it's worth their while; I probably would have made the price $10.00 higher if I were them. :twisted:
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Redfox
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Redfox »

Awesome! So glad they listened to reason! We gotta support!!!!! Hype this up! Scream it from the rooftops or something :D

And for the record, yes I prob would have paid a lot more, but i'll take it for 20, no sweat :)
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Sengoku Strider »

EmperorIng wrote:Yeah, I had already admitted I wanted to pick it up, so I am glad I have the option now. Hope it's worth their while; I probably would have made the price $10.00 higher if I were them. :twisted:
Gunlord completely tanked on the eShop which made them feel awful, it sounds like this release only happened because they got a groundswell of interest after Shmup Junkie's video on them. So it's understandable if they're trying to play it safe with this one.
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Terramax
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Re: RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

Post by Terramax »

Jesus, is it really worth £18? I just got Espgaluda 2 for £3 cheaper, and that's a top-tier shmup. Perhaps they're wanting to convience more to buy the physical instead? Or, when nobody downloads it, they have an excuse again to complain that nobody bought their game?
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