Is it ok to dislike DDPDOJ?

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:27 am

"It's quite ok to hate it.

It's stupidly hard, gets too hard far too quickly, the chaining is pointlessly difficult to maintain, and it was plainly made for their hardcore fans as opposed to a wider audience."

I agree with Bloodflowers here. I personally found the game to be pretty boring, and while the graphics are great, they are certainly nothing that Gradius V or Border Down can't do better. And playing it without chaining is like playing Ikaruga without trying to chain at all: no fun, IMO.

umi · Post by **umi** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:55 am

DDPish graphics are the direct antithesis of BD/GradiusVish graphics, therefore cannot be compared in such a way. ALSO, how can you compare the chaining to that of Ikaruga? Totally different.

I play all the ddp's for survival. Slowly you incorporate some subconscious chaining into it the more you play, but I aim for survival primarily. At its core it is quite traditional AND ruthless, so survival is really its primary form.

You can hate the game people, just keep in mind that if you do, YOU'RE A PUSSY! Or maybe you just don't like manic shmups, which is fine.

Please, no one get offended... there's nothing wrong with cats...

dave4shmups wrote:"It's quite ok to hate it.

It's stupidly hard, gets too hard far too quickly, the chaining is pointlessly difficult to maintain, and it was plainly made for their hardcore fans as opposed to a wider audience."

I agree with Bloodflowers here. I personally found the game to be pretty boring, and while the graphics are great, they are certainly nothing that Gradius V or Border Down can't do better. And playing it without chaining is like playing Ikaruga without trying to chain at all: no fun, IMO.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:08 am

umi wrote:YOU'RE A PUSSY!

Please, no one get offended... there's nothing wrong with cats...

That one's gotta qualify for the "Disclaimer of the Week" award...

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:17 am

"YOU'RE A PUSSY! "

Boy, there's some respect for 'ya!

Anyone remember way back when this forum was actually FRIENDLY??

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:23 am

umi wrote:...Or maybe you just don't like manic shmups, which is fine.]

I think you missed the sarcasm there, Dave.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:26 am

Mod edit from Dylan: STOP baiting people.

i was going to reply, but umi hit it on the nail.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:30 am

I like to play games that are hard, even if I keep getting my butt kicked. I love contra games and the DDP series (including DP) sounds like something I will love.

That "You're a pussy" thing may have been scarasm, but I still thought of it as rude. It's a deragtory term no matter how you cut it IMO. I personally don't feel that joking around using those types of terms or harsh cursing is very funny. In other words, one thing that isn't disrespectful to one person may be disrespectful to someone else.

However, I do think this constant trading should stop. When I find a game hard, I don't trade it, I take a break from it and play it again later. Maybe it's not as good as just sticking with the game, but I find it a lot more fun, especially when that hard game is a game that is extremely good.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:45 am

needs less emo.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:10 am

This is a warning to everyone to get back OT or I will close this thread. Just discuss the game already!

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:39 am

Lets not get "mod crazy" here...most of the stuff I've read is either sarcasm or mostly harmless bullshiting.

But, you never know...seems to be an increase of "sensitive" people around, and with the current level of sarcasm floating around, someones bound to have their feelings hurt.
Like I said before, you kittens need to playing with your claws in...otherwise sombody's going to get scratched!

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:42 am

I'm only stepping in because it's not stopping, Twitch. Regardless of how thin/thick folks' skin is, when people start getting annoyed with each other it's time to step in.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:53 am

umi wrote:DDPish graphics are the direct antithesis of BD/GradiusVish graphics, therefore cannot be compared in such a way. ALSO, how can you compare the chaining to that of Ikaruga? Totally different.

The graphics are definitely different styles.

And while the chaining may be different execution, it still boils down to strict memorization (which is why I play for survival - I have no memory

)

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:15 am

OK, sorry that I missed that sarcasm.

I just think this game is enormously overrated; I've played far better Cave shmups (with far better graphics) on Mame. Guwange would be one example; I thought that one was FAR better then DDPDOJ.

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly with what BrianC said. Sarcasm aside, there are FAR too many crude remarks and language on this site being used against others. This is about the only online forum I've encountered that even allows disrespectfull language (ie, swearing) to be used, and it certainly doesn't help create a friendly environment. There ought to be some rules on language on this site; at the very least on using it against others, rather then just saying things like "Oh sh**t, my Saturn just broke", or other such comments.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:41 am

dave4shmups wrote: This is about the only online forum I've encountered that even allows disrespectfull language (ie, swearing) to be used

sorry for the OT again but.
what the hell?
what forums have you been to? the only forum i know of thats anal about that is gamefaqs, and i could easily understand, since mods cant really handle such a big thing seriously.
i was just kidding eearlier, sorry everyone takes the internet so seriously, ill stop now.

back on topic before i get banned: the chaining in ikaruga requires you to stop shooting alot, shooting only particular ennemies and stuff, wich completely contradicts with survival.
in DOJ you need to shoot the ennemies just like normal, but in a certain rythm, often the chaining route is a very good one for survival too, but it comes down to timing.

i say theyre not quite alike.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:41 am

Dave, please just discuss the game, OK? I'll police the rude remarks.

IlMrm · Post by **IlMrm** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:14 am

After watching videos of the game, I made sure this game is near the top of my "to play" list when I went to Japan. I had no trouble finding the game(found one in about every city I went to), and I had a blast playing it. I had no idea how to chain, so I played it strictly for survival. It was exhilarating, with the huge amount of bullets, your ship's cool firepower, etc. I just had great fun playing the game. I think chaining gives it an even greater challenge. I also watched some guy 1CC the first loop with ease.

So in my humble opinion this game is fun.

DantesInferno · Post by **DantesInferno** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:01 am

Rob wrote:
The vagrant wrote:and at best, cave doesnt get enough love, theres a shitload of people who bash cave for no reason, but eh, stuff happens.
Cave is the last developer that "doesn't get enough love."

That is the truth. I love some of Cave's stuff..and I also think a lot of it is overrated. ESPGaluda for example..it's at the bottom rung of the Cave ladder..imo..bland graphics, bland music, bland characters, the gameplay is a little more unique, which is great, but as most have stated, it's Cave's easiest game, which explains some of the accessibility..and Guwange, Ketsui, Progear and especially ESPRaDe walk all over it and spank it like a little girl ..I think Ibara is what Cave needs right now...more than ever. My time with Mushi has made me a tad bit more optimistic about Cave. The graphics alone are incredible, and the new gameplay elements do add something though the bullet/enemy patterns and placement feel really familiar... AND there is possibility of a homeport (Cave's investor relations page has some mumblings about this)

Back to DOJ

I forgot to add that it's ok to dislike any game...because everyone has different tastes. I was talking to a friend about this game today, and he said that it seems like the people who 1cc games on the easiest modes of play dismiss games like DOJ because it's too hard. I guess I thrive on difficulty..I don't find any fun in playing Psikyo shooters on the baby/monkey level, with 5 lives and max bombs...but some people do. Like I said..I think DOJ is just beautiful in every way, and I have a lot of respect for how it was created.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:02 am

I´ve had problems with DOJ, too. My solution was selling it and going back to DDP for a few years, because I figured I simply hadn´t enough experience with that one to even start playing DOJ. Especially the way the hyper item replaces the bomb but increases rank is something that requires you to know exactly what you´re doing in DOJ, and the chaining is so tight there´s very little room for even slightly unprecise timing.

DDP has a much better way of teaching the player how to play it by just playing it often, that´s why I went back to it. Sometimes, I´ll just concentrate on the bees, other times I try chaining, sometimes I´m going for the Max Multiplier and other times I focus on surviving longer by using bombs early. That way, it´s possible to develop different skills in order to combine them with more experience later on. This process is going to take a few years, and because many people in Japan went through it before DOJ came out, DOJ could be made the way it is, but I think it´s just out of reach if you can´t look back on that kind of experience.

Post by **system11** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:03 pm

dave4shmups wrote:"It's quite ok to hate it.

It's stupidly hard, gets too hard far too quickly, the chaining is pointlessly difficult to maintain, and it was plainly made for their hardcore fans as opposed to a wider audience."

I agree with Bloodflowers here. I personally found the game to be pretty boring, and while the graphics are great, they are certainly nothing that Gradius V or Border Down can't do better. And playing it without chaining is like playing Ikaruga without trying to chain at all: no fun, IMO.

Just to make it clear, I don't think the game is boring, the graphics are very nice in places as is the soundtrack, it's just crippled for anyone but absolutely die hard fans by the ridiculous difficulty level.

They got it spot on with Mushihimesama, with the original manic and ultra modes.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:03 pm

Some of the posts here read like typical Gamefaqs kiddo's mumbo jumbo...
Seems the main dislike of DOJ is because of its difficulty.

I was once on a Neo-Geo forum, and some kid asked about Metal Slug 3. I told him that it was pretty hard, and that he may never beat it (if played casually).
His reply, "Well, if I can't beat a game, then why bother buying it!?" Like I said, Gamefaqs Kiddo mentality. They treat games like movies...play it/watch it once, trade it in sell it. They don't know how to appreciate it, in other words.
You like/buy a game because you like playing it. Also, its good to challenge yourself. I could play Thunder Force III ALL DAY LONG, and have lots of fun with it. Its pretty easy for me, as I'm a verteran of TF, but its not going to improve my skills any.

Bottom line, hating it because its hard, is the "pussy way out". If you simply don't care for it, then why even ask if its ok not to? Did you ask this because you're afraid of missing out on something? Actually, you just might be missing out...
Take it one level at a time, hardly ever use continues, realize you might not be a Japanese genius with teh MAD Skillz0rs. If you keep dying in the same place...your doing something wrong. Change it up a bit, challenge yourself and get better. Every game has patterns you must develope, this one is no exception.

Guess what? I don't even own the game(yet)!!! I've only played it twice...but it didn't scare me away!

It all depends...even though I have 1CC (first loop) in DoDonPachi, sometimes your playing will just be "off"(where you cant do anything right). I played it last night for a bit, and couldn't even see stage 4

Play it when you think your "ON"!

Post by **system11** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:07 pm

Twitch, did you see the latter part of stage 3? It ramps up considerably there, we're talking harder than level 5 of DDP by a wide margin.

Anarchos · Post by **Anarchos** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:58 pm

Bloodflowers: In my opinion stage 5 ddp is WAY more harder than level 3 DOJ. For me it's hard to understand how anyone can think otherwise since I have been playing ddp probably around 200-300 hours and still have very big trouble clearing stage 5 without loosing a life. Don't think I ever did, actually.

DOJ is harder when comparing the whole package, mainly because you don't got much bombs when you're using exy, which you are because without her (or it) you stand no chance against the amount of enemies that will stack up really fast after a while. But it's super-duper fun anyway, love it. Hate the chaining some days, like is others. But the game got my love.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:08 pm

Nice post there Twitch.

I haven't had it for too long, but I know if I just put time into it, watch the replay dvd (to get a goal to shoot for, it probly has the maximum possible chains, etc.), play it right I'll get much better eventually.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:16 pm

TWITCHDOCTOR wrote: Bottom line, hating it because its hard, is the "pussy way out". If you simply don't care for it, then why even ask if its ok not to? Did you ask this because you're afraid of missing out on something? Actually, you just might be missing out...

Jeepers, I'm not sure if this comment is directed at me (the original poster) but it sounds like someone has a serious case of exaggeration going on here. First, "hated" is a strong word, which I have never used when describing this game (please re-read my posts). I also stated I am not abodoning the game. My question about "is it ok to dislike it" stems from the fact that I am a beginner to the DP DDP DOJ series, and starting off with DOJ now doesn't seem very accessible, and I wanted to see if others had this same expierence. Seeing how people can read into this for the sake of expressing their own macho attidudes sickens me. And this comment about "pussy way out" makes me feel like I'm in highschool again. Next thing you know people will say I'm not cool because I don't smoke.

Anyway, I think Raiden best answered my question (thank you!). I'm going to put DOJ aside and come back to it after I get more expierence with the previous versions.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:17 pm

TWITCHDOCTOR wrote: It all depends...even though I have 1CC (first loop) in DoDonPachi, sometimes your playing will just be "off"(where you cant do anything right). I played it last night for a bit, and couldn't even see stage 4

Play it when you think your "ON"!

That describes my playing style perfectly. If I'm "on" for the day, I can go and play some Gunbird 2 and make it to the stage 6 boss. If I'm off, I'll get frustrated before stage 4 and walk away with damaged knuckles.

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:27 pm

I agree with T.D. that hating a shmup only because it's difficult is no reason to hate a shmup. With some other game genres it might make sense, but not with shmups. Shmups are supposed to be hard to beat!

In DOJ I've only gotten to stage 4 three times on defaults, so when I play the game my attitude is: Maybe I'll get to stage 4 if I really focus & conserve bombs etc. OR: Maybe I'll keep those chains going that I always try for, and snag those bees at the right time! Maybe I'll get on the score list! It'll get my heart pounding! Stuff like that.

... and I feel rewarded if any of that stuff happens.

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:34 pm

sffan wrote:I agree with T.D. that hating a shmup only because it's difficult is no reason to hate a shmup. With some other game genres it might make sense, but not with shmups. Shmups are supposed to be hard to beat!

In DOJ I've only gotten to stage 4 three times on defaults, so when I play the game my attitude is: Maybe I'll get to stage 4 if I really focus & conserve bombs etc. OR: Maybe I'll keep those chains going that I always try for, and snag those bees at the right time! Maybe I'll get on the score list! It'll get my heart pounding! Stuff like that.

... and I feel rewarded if any of that stuff happens.

I'm right with you. Hell you've described the essence of what every good shooter is. Trial, experiment, perseverance and eventual exhiliration. To me it's about sweaty palms and triumph as i watch the money shot - that big boss explosion at the end.

Guardians Knight · Post by **Guardians Knight** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:56 pm

it's great, dont blaspheme!

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:05 am

Dave_K. wrote:
TWITCHDOCTOR wrote: Bottom line, hating it because its hard, is the "pussy way out". If you simply don't care for it, then why even ask if its ok not to? Did you ask this because you're afraid of missing out on something? Actually, you just might be missing out...
Jeepers, I'm not sure if this comment is directed at me (the original poster) but it sounds like someone has a serious case of exaggeration going on here. First, "hated" is a strong word, which I have never used when describing this game (please re-read my posts). I also stated I am not abodoning the game. My question about "is it ok to dislike it" stems from the fact that I am a beginner to the DP DDP DOJ series, and starting off with DOJ now doesn't seem very accessible, and I wanted to see if others had this same expierence. Seeing how people can read into this for the sake of expressing their own macho attidudes sickens me. And this comment about "pussy way out" makes me feel like I'm in highschool again. Next thing you know people will say I'm not cool because I don't smoke.

Anyway, I think Raiden best answered my question (thank you!). I'm going to put DOJ aside and come back to it after I get more expierence with the previous versions.

Wow! Much to answer for here I see...
Ok, so you didn't say you "hated" it (hated/dislike/don't care for/...same shit, lets move on now, shall we?)

I'm not directly calling you a "pussy" either. (just like in high school) All I'm saying is, don't "dislike" a game just because its hard. Thats a "pussy" attitude to have towards anything. With that mentality, I may have never played R-Type even though I found Thunderforce to be easier...

Abandoning it? Well, this might not be a DIRECT quote, but you did say that if you were playing it at the arcade, you wouldn't play it anymore. You also said that you were now going to focus your attention towards DoDonPachi instead. (an easier game, but not by THAT much...sounds like giving up to me)

Just be glad you own the home port...you already paid your dues. Now its time to get serious and enjoy the thing.

Oh, and playing DDP is only going to help you get better at DDP; You're still going to have to master and use skill in DOJ. (PLaying DDP isn't going to magicaly grant you the ability to 1CC DOJ)
Point is...(before you freak out on me again) just about any shmup is going to take time to learn to play properly.

I don't think I was trying to come off as "macho". But then again, I smoke!
I also drive a classic hotrod...so thats pretty darn hardcore macho, man!
I even play arcade cabs barefoot, while standing on broken glass...no pain no gain!!! I even shave with a straight razor...

PS: Don't let me catch you in the boys room...I'm gonna find an "unflushed" toilet and give you a swirly from hell!!!

Or else, maybe I'll shoot you with that "special squirt gun"...filled with a questionable pale yellow liquid.

Also, quoting me from my above post...there was nothing really wrong with what I said, so I don't understand why you're feeling you have to defend yourself about it so much.

BTW: Good luck in DDP.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:08 am

Oh, and playing DDP is only going to help you get better at DDP; You're still going to have to master and use skill in DOJ. (PLaying DDP isn't going to magicaly grant you the ability to 1CC DOJ)

No, but playing DDP means training to concentrate on chaining and survival at the same time without being as challenging in both departments as DOJ. And I don´t know what´s wrong about choosing games with a difficulty fitting to one´s own abilities. Why should I try to force myself to enjoy a game if there are other games I can enjoy without forcing myself to do so? To "get serious"?