Is it ok to dislike DDPDOJ?

[Dave_K.]

So I've had DDPDOJ (PS2) for about a month now, play it at least once a day , and just can't seem to get into it. I've read the FAQs, set the game to EASY and still can't chain anything past the very first big ship. Since I can rarley hold a chain past 80, I almost never see a hyper. I also seem to have a problem with bullet hurding, as I always paint myself into a corner, or have to make some suicidal dodge run though the middle of the screen and get hit. I don't see why this game is still so difficult even when set to EASY. If I was playing this in a real arcade and wasting this much money (for every game I've played so far), I would definately never play it again.

In contrast, Espgaluda (I've had for almost 2 months) seems very enjoyable, and even though I still haven't 1 credited it past stage 3 yet, I find it very exciting, and am able to get some decent runs on the first 2 levels. I actually seem to be able to make progress, and this is on NORMAL difficulty.

I've seen talk of shmup "accessablility" in another thread, and wonder if DDPDOJ is an example of a game that is just not accessable to beginners?

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

"Die Ole Jew" is strickly for the "hardcore bunch".
Its tough, but don't let it get you down.
I never beat R-Type...but that doesn't mean that I'll never play it again!
Even if I did beat it, I would still play it again!

My advice...take that shit offa easy and get better. You're skills won't improve by playing it that way.

Dude, some shmups are hard, not everybody can beat all of em!!
It takes time, and pattern development, not to mention skills. (most of which can be developed...still, it helps to be totally badass from the start)

[Neon]

DOJ is excellent.

If you're playing it yoko, it's the worst game in the universe. Get off your arse and tate your tv

[DantesInferno]

...and in RGB it's even better.

I love DOJ...after playing it for quite a while I really started appreciating everything about it. It's hard as hell, but that's what keeps you coming back..Galuda is a good game, more accessible to the beginner, and a little less intimidating than some of Cave's other offerings for sure, but I look at DOJ as a work of art in every way, just like I see ESPRaDe, Dragon Blaze and Dimahoo..all those games blow me away..

[Ghegs]

I've seen talk of shmup "accessablility" in another thread, and wonder if DDPDOJ is an example of a game that is just not accessable to beginners?

Pretty much, yeah. The chaining is as strict and anal as they come, even Randorama was put off by it. I don't even try to chain the stages, I just play for survival and that's plenty of fun right there.

As a sidenote, there are no shmups (or games, or anything for that matter) that everybody absolutely must like or be labelled a heretic.

[umi]

No.

[TheSacrificed]

I didn't really like DOJ for a long time but I started playing it again a few weeks ago and now I love it. I don't care about chaining, I just want to survive as long as possible. Recently, I managed to get to the third stage boss on 1 coin twice (and I have hopes being able to reach stage 4 because I've already beaten the third boss a few times without losing a life)...for a mediocre shmupper like me, such achievements are sooo rewarding

[sffan]

Don't worry about chaining - That's for the experts. Anyway some games aren't really meant to be beaten. It's kinda like Asteroids - It keeps getting harder until it goes beyond your skill no matter how good you are. DOJ is an ideal arcade game in that way, and as someone else said: That's what keeps you coming back.

[Davey]

For me, it's hard to forget about chaining (in any shmup, not just DOJ) after I've started the habit.

[BulletMagnet]

I've seen talk of shmup "accessablility" in another thread, and wonder if DDPDOJ is an example of a game that is just not accessable to beginners?

Heh heh, sounds like I'm being summoned!

I got DOJ not long ago myself, and while I agree without hesitation that the thing is evilly hard, I would also say that it does make a spirited effort at making itself accessible as well. For one thing it offers "No Bullet Mode" to allow you to practice your chains without worrying about being shot at, as well as "Simulation Mode" so you can practice or try out later stages even if you can't get to them "normally," not to mention the included replay DVD (though I haven't watched it myself, I prefer to learn stuff through personal experience). Also, as was said, it's possible to play more or less solely for survival without worrying too much about chaining, though keeping your eyes peeled for opportunities couldn't hurt (especially since it can earn you an extra life or two). Just because a game's hard doesn't mean it's inaccessible: by the same token, though, the fact that the game's accessible doesn't mean it's easy.

My advice...take that shit offa easy and get better. You're skills won't improve by playing it that way.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that...who says you can't get better by starting out on an easier difficulty level? Once you get used to the game enough by playing it on a lesser difficulty then you can move up from there: it's not "hardcore," but who the heck cares? I've personally been playing DOJ on "Normal" so far myself, but that comes partially from the fact that Cave's stuff (regrettably) doesn't save separate high score lists for different difficulties, so if I made a high score on Easy I'd likely never be able to beat it once I moved up to Normal.

On an endnote, ESPGaluda should be on its way to me soon, so I'll be able to try that one out for myself before long...

[MadSteelDarkness]

DDP-DOJ is a masterpiece, pure and simple...

Yeah, she's a gorgeous, terrible, bitch goddess of a game. But she's soooo rewarding after you've put some time into her. Simply put, you don't just have a dalliance with this game. You have to have a relationship with her. Some days, she won't want to have anything to do with you, and she'll smack you down. On other days though, you'll get further with her than you ever have before, exploring previously unforeseen depths in shmup bliss.

Yes, I love DOJ....and love's a bitch.


Oh, and Twitch:

That, err, joke is getting reeaaally old. Ya know, I'm Jewish, and by some standards on this board, I'm old. If I was the sensitive type, I might take offense.

But hey, if you want to perpetuate that "racist redneck" stereotype, knock yerself out.

[Super Laydock]

DOJ is plain is God's Gift to shmuppers! (imo)

The game is just amazing.

Try and play the game without focussing on the chaining and it will be a fantatstic, almost oldschool, fun game! Get better with just surviving and take a pick at chaining.
You can play this game any way you want, chaining is NOT a neccessity.

But I guess in the end it's just a personal thing whether you like the or not.
There are even people disliking the Gradius series, so I guess there are also people who dislike this game.

Don't worry about it!

[Stormowl]

Is it ok to dislike DDPDOJ?

well, first of all it depends on where and to whom you are asking the question.

in i'd have to say it's cave's least accessible game for beginners. espgaluda does a much better job in that regard.

i enjoy DDPDOJ and the DDP series, but absolutely abhor the scoring system. some people love it, but it's just way to picky for my tastes.

at the very least i like to see some dissent toward Cave these days. as much as i like their games, some think they should go without criticism.

[system11]

It's quite ok to hate it.

It's stupidly hard, gets too hard far too quickly, the chaining is pointlessly difficult to maintain, and it was plainly made for their hardcore fans as opposed to a wider audience.

I personally agree that Espgaluda is the better game.

james

[Jon]

It's quite ok to hate it.

It's stupidly hard, gets too hard far too quickly, the chaining is pointlessly difficult to maintain, and it was plainly made for their hardcore fans as opposed to a wider audience.

I personally agree that Espgaluda is the better game.

james

While I don't feel quite that strongly about it I would also agree that DOJ doesn't quite do it for me. I certainly dont think it's bad by any means I just think Cave has done better in the past. Then again I never put Cave on the pedestal many on this forum do so maybe I not the most qualified to comment. I guess all I am trying to say is that there is nothing wrong with not digging on the game. Do what I often do, fire up a little Gradius V instead.

[BIG]

I think it's okay to dislike anything..it's a matter of taste/preference,really. DOJ,to me,is kinda like this one ex-girlfriend of mine. It pisses me off to no avail,but yet it keeps me coming back for more..

Cave has definitely got the right idea..

BIG-

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

DDP-DOJ is a masterpiece, pure and simple...

Yeah, she's a gorgeous, terrible, bitch goddess of a game. But she's soooo rewarding after you've put some time into her. Simply put, you don't just have a dalliance with this game. You have to have a relationship with her. Some days, she won't want to have anything to do with you, and she'll smack you down. On other days though, you'll get further with her than you ever have before, exploring previously unforeseen depths in shmup bliss.

Yes, I love DOJ....and love's a bitch.


Oh, and Twitch:

That, err, joke is getting reeaaally old. Ya know, I'm Jewish, and by some standards on this board, I'm old. If I was the sensitive type, I might take offense.

But hey, if you want to perpetuate that "racist redneck" stereotype, knock yerself out.

"Racist Redneck"? Me!? Just because I live in Texas doesn't mean I'm a redneck. In fact, not even close. I don't even have a "southern" accent by any stretch. Although I can imitate one fully...then again, I can pull off some pretty good "south of the border" type lingo as well. I'm Irish and from Chicago Ill, hoss! (no cowboy hats fer me)

Anyway, I call DOJ "Die ole Jew", because thats exactly what it sounds like when pronounced. I could be wrong, but it sounds French. Its not that I'm poking fun at Jewish people, or anyone else. I'm not racist at all.

I'll heed your advice, but I seriously doubt anyone here would take offense to me calling it that, or refering to it as such.

Seems lots of people are getting upset with the TWITCH lately...
I'm receiving complaints from everything from 1 credit clear lists,DoDonpachi jokes,my name even caused a stir before.
I even upset someone about a year ago with my signature.
It read, " Let Shmups Die in the USA...Support the Import". (This was me upset about the "butchering" of Shikigami no Shiro=Mobile Light Force 2)

PS: Wanna hear another one? Sure you do...
Sometimes I refer to Soukyugurentai as "Soak You in Gay Hentai".
Now, I really cannot see how even gay peeps will get offended by that. (I never had any issues with gay people. Heck, Queen and Judas Priest are a couple of my all time favorite bands) [ singers are gay...ones dead from Aids]

Its all just common/harmless joking...The names DO sound funny though.

[neorichieb1971]

You guys crack me up. I don't see a learning curve in manic shooters, if you can do one you can do them all theoretically. But if you can't do any of the manic shooters, does that mean your a beginner?

I've played shooters since about 1980, so am I beginner since I cannot get past level 5 in ESP ra.de which I play almost everyday?

How much more practice do I need?

[cigsthecat]

Is it ok to dislike DDPDOJ?

Yes, but not because it's too hard.

You guys crack me up. I don't see a learning curve in manic shooters, if you can do one you can do them all theoretically. But if you can't do any of the manic shooters, does that mean your a beginner?

You're not making any sense. Some people will naturally need more practice than others to get to the same point.

[TVG]

Mod edit from Dylan1CC: I dunno if that shout out to madsteel was tongue in cheek, regardless it was in very poor taste. Don't do it again. Potentially inflammatory comments will not be tolerated.

anyways, DDPDOJ is great, but if you dont like it, well you dont. forcing yourself t like something is the best way to hate it.
one thing is not to be frustrated by its difficulty, just play it as you like, keep cool, and evenually you'll see progress, dont be frustrated.

since chaining is 0% improvisation, dont worry about it, youll get it eventually once you know the levels enough.

i dont agree that once you beat one manic you beat them all, sure theres the skill, but memorization is just as important as the old school shooters, especially in cave games since its very important to shoot the ennemies in a certain order to avoid being trapped, its like that since batsugun.

also, the technique of negociation of patterns makes aall the difference.

example, you see a boss trhow some patteern at you, it might seem impossible at first but then you figure out that it becomes much easier if you position yourself a certain way, and move a ceertaain specific way too. just like in any rtype or gradius.

and at best, cave doesnt get enough love, theres a shitload of people who bash cave for no reason, but eh, stuff happens.

[Ghegs]

Anyway, I call DOJ "Die ole Jew", because thats exactly what it sounds like when pronounced.

Actually, it's pronounced closer to "Die Oh Joe". That's not exactly right either, but it's more accurate than your version.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

I wouldn't like it. Too inaccessible. DDP is inaccessible enough for me, and I've never gotten past level 4. If I were to get a Cave recent Manic, then I'd go the Mushi way. My rule of thumb is that if I can't finish it in less than 200 hours, it is not worth my time.

[landshark]

Is it ok to dislike DDPDOJ?

well, first of all it depends on where and to whom you are asking the question.

in i'd have to say it's cave's least accessible game for beginners. espgaluda does a much better job in that regard.

i enjoy DDPDOJ and the DDP series, but absolutely abhor the scoring system. some people love it, but it's just way to picky for my tastes.

at the very least i like to see some dissent toward Cave these days. as much as i like their games, some think they should go without criticism.

I never played DOJ. But I'm in the same boat as you for the series in general. I hate comboing in my shooters. But I still enjoy DDP when I just play for survival. You can dodge and play just like any other shooter. You are just not likely to be granted the loop (I don't konw what the loop req is as I haven't 1cc'd the first loop yet. I die at about 25mil in the last stage).

[Rob]

and at best, cave doesnt get enough love, theres a shitload of people who bash cave for no reason, but eh, stuff happens.

Cave is the last developer that "doesn't get enough love."

[Kiel]

I dont really like it. Not because of the difficulty but because it doesn't seem complete to me. IMO it has no soul or personality. I am trying to give it some more time though.

[Dylan1CC]

Just a polite notice to anyone wishing to continue the "die ole jew"/race discussion, please don't.

And I'm quite confident Twitch is not a racist.

[TVG]

rob: yea, lets bash them for the sake of it, as the other poster said.
sorry, but in the time ive been here, ive seen plenty of people talk about cave as if it was the devil or something, while people get upset when someone criticizes crappy half assed shmups.
not liking cave shmups is one thing, but what other company made as much good stuff in the past 8 years?

UFO: i think 200 hours is more than enough to "beat" the game, as in, 1CC the first loop without chaining too much, the game is pretty generous with bombs and B ship with powered shot is king for survival.
then again, if by "beating" the game you mean clearing both loops with all bees and chains in all stages, then of course its not enough, but thats kinda the beauty of it.

kiel: i kinda get what you're saying, the game seems...how to say it, the thing that came to my mind was "this game doesnt talk", but i know that wont make sense to anyone cept me, what im trying to say is that its mostly a core of a game, no fancy intro, not much fancy stuff in game either, just pure level desigh sweetness, its disappointing the game doesnt offer you anything else than pink and blue bullets (and maybe TWO big lasers, wich isnt much) unlike dodonpachi first, who had much more versatility in the subject.
thats one flaw of the game, but i can easily overlook it, since the core gameplay is good, the music is good (one of my favourites in shmups) and the graphics, while not the best, are solid.

tough i still think asking if its wrong to dislike something is kinda silly, but thee topic creator was probably sarcastic in some way.

overall, DDPDOJ wasnt designed to lure casual gamers, it was designed for the fanss of the geenre who wanted a challenge in the same vein as dodonpachi, but better.
i honestly cant see anything wrong with that.

then again, if cave decides to make an acessible game ssuch as espgaluda, people complain about it beeing too easy, as seen in the old forum.
so all in all, people will always find ways to complain.

[Dave_K.]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I really like the one tip about using the no-bullet mode to train on chaining (and discoverying bee locations). I'll have to try that out. But it sounds like I shouldn't really bother with the advance chaining aspect of the game at this point. So I'll try just do survival play.

As to my original topic question, I was not trying to be sarcastic. After all the praise I herd on the board about DDPDOJ, I was surprised to find it not very appealing to me. And I do enjoy other shmups which are also masochistic in nature. I just found this one to be...annoying..for lack of a better word. On the accessability side, I just wanted to confirm if this game was accessable to beginners, or just to DDP (or DP) fans of past. I never really got into the previous ones, so maybe thats the root of my problem.

Anyway, I'm not abandoning DDPDOJ, or calling Cave out as being the devil. I'm just going to have to put this thing on the shelf, and only come back to it after I play more of the previous versions, or when I get bored with my current collection. Sorry DDPOJ, you are indeed one hash mistress.

[MadSteelDarkness]

Jeepers...I didn't mean to start a flamewar.

Twitch, I know you're not a racist redneck. I was referring to the stereotype that persists about Texans and Texas. I really, reeeaally hate stereotypes, particularly being a *takes deep breath* Mexican Irish Jewish Texan. Yup, I'm from Texas, too. In fact I'm as Texan as you can get. My mother's from Mexico, my father's from Appalachia, and I was born in Satan-tonio. That's like, the definition of Texas.

Anyway, to all of whom I offended (including the mods ), I apologize.
And most certainly, to Twitchdoctor: No hard feelings bubelah!

Sorry, Dylan, I know you wanted this discussion ended, but since I was the one who inadvertently started this, I wanted to sort it out and, hopefully, give it a happy ending.



and DDP-DOJ is still brilliant

[TVG]

im the one baiting flamewars (but that was just cause i was annoyed that someone could be offended by something so trivial)

anyway, i ddont want to be banned so nevermind :p