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 Post subject: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:16 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
Posts: 165
Just a question - I know some folks don't like to MAME cave games and that's fine. I recently bought ESPgaluda II for iphone and have been enjoying that.

I am running groovymame .152 with ESPGALUDA II at native resolution on a CRT. I noticed that it runs 100% all the time, so the PC seems to be keeping up with the emulation perfectly. However, I find the character moves kind of slow (which is probably just because I am used to the iphone controls which are "as fast as you can move your finger" and the bullets move very fast, to the point where they seem unavoidable by stage 2.

Looking around here, I have seen talk of "slowpoke" mame which includes a Blitter Delay setting, and I also know that the latest ex2 update of regular MAME has a new CAVE driver and Blitter Delay setting in the Sliders options for CAVE games.

Does anyone know how close to accurate the speed of ESPgaluda II is in mame, with and without Blitter Delay settings? I am wondering if it really is running a bit fast when it should slow down a touch, or if I just really suck at dodging bullets. Can these games be played on regular MAME/groovyMAME?

As a side note, iPhone versions of CAVE games are fun, but I can't help but feel like whipping the char around super fast destroys some of the balance of slow chars vs faster ones?


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:59 pm 


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No idea about the MAME accuracy but you could check a replay recorded from the PCB for a comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEzH4yxjFx0
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:27 pm 


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tzakiel wrote:
Does anyone know how close to accurate the speed of ESPgaluda II is in mame


About as close as a blind man missing the broad side of a barn. SH3 emulation is garbage.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:08 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
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Jaimers wrote:
About as close as a blind man missing the broad side of a barn. SH3 emulation is garbage.


Well to me the games seem to run really well, I was just wondering about the specifics re: speed and Blitter Delay. The video posted above looks (both visuals and speed) to be the same as my MAME system, but I'm sure there are small differences.

Rather than just calling it garbage, I guess I am wondering about specific details - if it is specifically faster in MAME at 100% than the PCB, and about how much faster.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:19 pm 


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Hey I've been wondering for a while, can you play those on your TV via something like the Apple TV or an HDMI adapter ?
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:21 am 


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tzakiel wrote:
Rather than just calling it garbage, I guess I am wondering about specific details - if it is specifically faster in MAME at 100% than the PCB, and about how much faster.


The SH3 emulation for Cave games doesn't properly emulate slowdown in a lot of areas, so it's pretty much garbage at this point. The Xbox 360 port is far, far more accurate by comparison.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:30 am 


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:29 am 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
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All right. What about the new blitter delay setting. That doesn't help?

Do the cave games previous to sh3 run ok?


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:40 am 


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Pinksweets and Ibara run ok, play those.
Progear (CPS2) has slowdown issues.
The PGM games have sound and graphic issues.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:24 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
Posts: 165
How about donpachi, ddp?


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:29 pm 


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Are the SH3 games accurate in mame? No. Are they a lot of fun? Of course. I have every NTSC-J Cave 360 release and play those primarily.
It doesn't stop me from playing them in mame for a change using these MAME HLSL CRT SCANLINE EMULATION PRESETS on my tate'd LCD, messing around with the service mode is kind of cool as well.

Trying to configure them to be accurate won't yield much benefit so I haven't really tried.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:36 pm 


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Is everyone commenting on accuracy using the *new* cv1k driver or the old cavesh3 one?

The new one seems pretty good to me speed + slowdown wise. Although I don't appear to have a machine with a quick enough CPU to run them correctly - sound goes very choppy when there's any slowdown.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:38 pm 


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cv1k.c is basically Slowpoke MAME with a toggle. Either way the emulation of the original hardware slowing down is NOT accurate.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:00 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
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cools wrote:
Is everyone commenting on accuracy using the *new* cv1k driver or the old cavesh3 one?

The new one seems pretty good to me speed + slowdown wise. Although I don't appear to have a machine with a quick enough CPU to run them correctly - sound goes very choppy when there's any slowdown.


Right, I think cv1k.c is supposed to be more accurate, but has some sound issues. But Haywood had said these would also be fixed in the near future, I believe. So we'll have to just wait and see how this new driver improves.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:14 am 


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The sound issues got fixed before cv1k.c went public AFAIK. I quoted it in TCFC black label thread from a post in his blog, and its obvious compared to the leaked builds the hiccups and random sfx doesn't happen anymore.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:45 am 


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I see. Interesting, the slowdown seemed quite close to me, certainly enough to make everything playable though just a touch harder than the PCBs.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:44 am 



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cools wrote:
I see. Interesting, the slowdown seemed quite close to me, certainly enough to make everything playable though just a touch harder than the PCBs.


Agreed. It's definitely not perfect but I can honestly say it's not the reason that I die anymore like it was when the original Cave driver came out.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:50 pm 


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Just to cover ground since it sounds like you've only played the iPhone version before: like many Cave games, Espgaluda II changes your character's movement speed based on what shot type you are using. If you are not firing or firing your shot (rapid-fire), you move at full speed. If you are using laser shot, your movement speed is approximately halved. Different characters also have different movement speeds - Tateha is the slowest character, not sure who is faster between Ageha or Asagi.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:56 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
Posts: 165
StarCreator wrote:
Just to cover ground since it sounds like you've only played the iPhone version before: like many Cave games, Espgaluda II changes your character's movement speed based on what shot type you are using.


Yup. Figured that out. Seems a bit silly that the iPhone version lets you move any char with any shot at the speed of light. But maybe it's not that big of a deal.

I'm going to try the new cave driver for mame today, looks like the default blitter delay is 50%. To be honest I can't tell a difference yet between 10% and 90% blitter.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:02 pm 


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tzakiel wrote:
Yup. Figured that out. Seems a bit silly that the iPhone version lets you move any char with any shot at the speed of light. But maybe it's not that big of a deal.


The only thing worse than fullspeed movement on a touchscreen is speedrestricted movement. It feels extremely unnatural in a touchscreen game, or even a mouse-controlled shmup for the ship to putter along chasing after the cursor's position.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:54 pm 



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Well I have espgaluda ii running in groovymame 152ex2 and blitter delay set to 63, and I still can't play for shit. Two possible reasons:

1. It's running too fast/not proper slowdown
2. I really suck at shmups

Inclined to think #2 mostly, because even when the action is managable I tend to go coasting into a bullet. I think the touch controls and difficulty of the iPhone port spoiled me, arcade seems much much harder. I wasn't good at the iPhone ver. But I could get 18-20 mil. On the stick I can't make it past stage 2 and I can't get more than 2 mil. Just too many bullets and not enough fine control. Guess I have some practicing to do.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:04 pm 


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You really can't compare them, they look the same but are entirely different to play.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:48 am 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
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Yep I think it's actually running pretty well. I am just terrible.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:13 pm 



Joined: 11 Apr 2009
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Do you think it will run alright on a 3Ghz Core 2 Duo?


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:13 am 


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It should.

Obvious tips for improving performance for those (no offense intended) less cluey to such matters:
1) Run fullscreen. That way you're not drawing MAME's stuff AND Windows as well
2) If you're running Steam Overlay for non-Steam apps, switch it off. It's confirmed to add to performance, and even having Steam in the background is a memory user.
3) Improving on 2), don't run ANYTHING else you don't need to.

Most things in MAME are a piece of cake for performance but CV1000 games are not so. 3.0ghz should now be plenty for these new builds, but forget running anything fancy like filters, or having 50 kajillion programs in the background. Good computer practice will net you good results - my i3 tower runs at 3.3ghz and runs the newer builds pretty much fine with the exception of some moments in the Yagawa games.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:26 am 



Joined: 13 Sep 2013
Posts: 101
BPzeBanshee wrote:
It should.

Obvious tips for improving performance for those (no offense intended) less cluey to such matters:
1) Run fullscreen. That way you're not drawing MAME's stuff AND Windows as well
2) If you're running Steam Overlay for non-Steam apps, switch it off. It's confirmed to add to performance, and even having Steam in the background is a memory user.
3) Improving on 2), don't run ANYTHING else you don't need to.

Most things in MAME are a piece of cake for performance but CV1000 games are not so. 3.0ghz should now be plenty for these new builds, but forget running anything fancy like filters, or having 50 kajillion programs in the background. Good computer practice will net you good results - my i3 tower runs at 3.3ghz and runs the newer builds pretty much fine with the exception of some moments in the Yagawa games.


I can confirm what BP is saying here to be true as well on my 2GHz Core 2 Duo system...
Although my general advice would be to wait for emulation to improve before trying Pink Sweets: Ibara Sorekora, or Muchi Muchi Pork...


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:40 pm 



Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 43
Is the slowdown intentionally programmed into the original or are they a product of hardware limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:47 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
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ilitirit wrote:
Is the slowdown intentionally programmed into the original or are they a product of hardware limitations.


If you mean the arcade original, the slowdown is "correct." I am not sure whether it's a happy accident on CAVE's part (some say the CV1000 board just isn't very high end) or if they intentionally made the hardware do that, but it is what is considered "right" They probably took it into account when designing the game, even if it wasn't "programmed" per se.

With MAME, anything less then 100% speed should be considered an issue with your hardware / setup rather than emulation. (Hit F11 while running a game to see your % speed) If MAME is running at 100% all the time, and there is slowdown, that is what they have programmed intentionally to happen. Now, how accurate that slowdown is is a subject of much debate. The latest CAVE drivers/mame unofficial builds from Haze have improved, and offer blitter delay on/off to simulate the arcade slowdown and has slider controls in the TAB menu, but it's still not quite the same as the PCB. It's playable in my opinion though for most SH3 games if you turn blitter on and set around 61-64%


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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:55 pm 


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Any progress on this front? It's been 5 years since the last post, sorry for the necro.
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 Post subject: Re: ESPgaluda II in MAME
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:04 pm 


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You mean slowdowns accuracy ? No. MAME lacks something fundamental in its architecture to achieve this, and it's so big we won't be seeing it featured anytime soon. Maybe never even.

Until then you can try the hacking workaround which is underclocking the emulated CV1000 CPU% in MAME (use GroovyMAME, it's the only up-to-date build that will save your OC settings)

Blitter delay is still there by the way, but it doesn't seem to work, or not as well as underclocking the CPU does.

Anyway nobody really cared to research which OC % or blitter values (both together?) do best for each game.
In the best cases you may achieve slowdowns somewhat close to the orignals, but never exactly the same AFAIK.

Last I've tried with some games CPU% around +/- 40% was giving results, and for blitter delay (assuming it still does anything) it was something like 63% or 59%, but all that info is rather old and inaccurate anyway, in most game that doesn't seem to work well at all.


PS: the OC is done in the 'sliders' menu (press TAB during play to access) but first you need to have activated 'cheats' in the mame.ini, or you won't see the CPU% slider.
Good luck.
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