11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[MrOldSchoolCool]

Yeah, thanks for doing this list. It's actually how I found this forum and the reason I stay

[Tyranix95]

Time's up and also I'm going to bed now. The calculation of results might take a bit longer this time as I'm busier nowadays, but I think I can manage to have them up within a week.

Thanks Nifty!

Man I hate waiting. Hey, isn't there an app for that /

[Jeneki]

Looking through my list, I gave a lot more Seibu love than usual. Honestly I think I'm ok with that though. They've always had tremendous fun-factor to me.

Out of curiosity, will the person who voted one [25] and twenty four [1] be contacted and given a chance to fix their vote? Or just tossed out?

[Nifty]

Out of curiosity, will the person who voted one [25] and twenty four [1] be contacted and given a chance to fix their vote? Or just tossed out?

I'll re-adjust it to fit the weighting rule. Space Phallus is still going to have a heck of a year >_>

[chum]

What about duplicate lists? Two people copy pasted Plasmo's list, I think there should be a rule against that

[Mero]

What about duplicate lists? Two people copy pasted Plasmo's list, I think there should be a rule against that

You're right, well spotted. They should probably be null and void to be honest.

[snacky]

I see that everyone else is interested in measuring subjective personal opinions, while I, on the other hand, was aiming only for correctness, which is why my votes match PLASMO's. When you look at it from that angle, it is my misunderstanding.

Although if you think about it from the reverse angle, you would see it this way:

What about all the votes that DIDN'T match Plasmo's? Based on my calculations, all of THOSE votes must have been incorrect.

[CKR]

What about duplicate lists? Two people copy pasted Plasmo's list, I think there should be a rule against that

I agree. Maybe Plasmo's tastes are superior, though.

[EmperorIng]

I, on the other hand, was aiming only for correctness

it's hard to say that when DonPachi is on the ballot.

[Pteriforever]

The purpose of the event, is, and I quote, "tallying up all the personal favourite lists that would otherwise meander around aimlessly".

Therefore, a "personal favourite list" is a correct list.

a "favourite" is a subjective personal opinion.

So all lists which properly represent the user's tastes are "correct", while lists which deviate in the name of "correctness" are no longer "personal favourite lists" and are therefore less correct.

Plasmo does have decent taste though.

[spadgy]

The idea of pursuing 'correctness' with anything like this seems impossible. However expert or experienced any voter's list is, it's still just opinion. There is no 'correct' when it comes to defining the best shmup.

Of course, Plasmo has great taste, and tonnes of experience!

[R-Gray 1]

What about duplicate lists? Two people copy pasted Plasmo's list, I think there should be a rule against that

You're right, well spotted. They should probably be null and void to be honest.

Iam agree should be null.
I didnt notice that Even with the reasons given in those lists

[royalfan84]

Some quick predictions of mine before the list is out:

1. DDP SDOJ does better than many expect finishing in the 9-12 range
2. Treasure gets a little more love this year as Gradius V rockets into the middle of the top 25 while Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun both finish in the 7-11 range.
3. Futari and Garegga are too close for me to guess; Ketsui 3rd.
4. Darius Gaiden, MM Pork, Pink Sweets, Mars Matrix, and Gunbird 2 all fighting for the final few spots
5. Souky and Strikers 1945 II miss the top 25
6. Akai Katana and DeathSmiles make the top 25.
7. The top 10 may very well have 4 DDP games.
8. Giga Wing and Battle Bakraid do not make the top 25
9. 4 or 5 horizontals make the top 25

[CKR]

[quote="royalfan84"]Some quick predictions of mine before the list is out:
7. The top 10 may very well have 4 DDP games.

It would be interesting to see the reaction to that.

[Tyranix95]

Yeah, one day, the Top 10 will be all CAVE games and half of you guys will be like WTF: COOL!?!? and the other half of you guys will be like NO WAY: WTH!?!?

---

Damn, where's the list. I need a spoiler. Just a tease. Even a little nip slip. Heh, any new sensation will do. Just tell me I'm still alive.

[spadgy]

This is not a prediction, as it won't happen, buy I'd be fascinated to see a worthy shmup on a 'non-traditional platform' (Steam, mobile etc) make it. Not absolutely sure why, but it might demonstrate a bit of future potential for the genre, and a bit of open-mindedness on our part! I'm not sure a game yet has it in it (Jamestown maybe), even though I voted for two mobile games (so I mean there hasn't yet been a game of a quality enough to appeal more universally than to just to me). But if it does happen one future Top 25, I think it will indicate positive progress for the future health of the genre.

I'd also like to see Raiden III and IV and the Psyvariars fair a bit better than usual, but that's purely a personal fanboy-ish desire.

And to clarify, I still far prefer proper arcade shmups to mobile and such, but the day that shmups exist that make such a statement ridiculous would be a great one indeed. Quality shmups accessible in many different places would be good for the genre, us lot, and that mainstream gamer mob we glance down our noses at!

[Mills]

What is the basis for top 25 shumps of all time, playability, popularity?

To be brutally honest, I can't be bothered to get into a wtf thread like this when most of the responses I have read have been wtf biased on personal opinion and nothing constructive to support their choices of shump titles.

[spadgy]

What is the basis for top 25 shumps of all time, playability, popularity?

To be brutally honest, I can't be bothered to get into a wtf thread like this when most of the responses I have read have been wtf biased on personal opinion and nothing constructive to support their choices of shump titles.

As discussed above, the very point is that it's personal choice. Is there really any way to be exclusively and purely objective about what qualifies as a good shmup? And whether criteria we were to focus on in terms of being 'top', any of us could only ever be qualified to put forward our personal interpretation of that.

With my votes, I considered design, scoring mechanics, aesthetics, depth etc., but all they could ever be were 'the shmups spadgy liked the most'. I guess you can separate out 'best' and 'favourites', as elements like nostalgia can influence the latter more directly, but even paring those two approaches out is a hard task with there being so much overlap.

[To Far Away Times]

This is not a prediction, as it won't happen, buy I'd be fascinated to see a worthy shmup on a 'non-traditional platform' (Steam, mobile etc) make it. Not absolutely sure why, but it might demonstrate a bit of future potential for the genre, and a bit of open-mindedness on our part! I'm not sure a game yet has it in it (Jamestown maybe), even though I voted for two mobile games (so I mean there hasn't yet been a game of a quality enough to appeal more universally than to just to me). But if it does happen one future Top 25, I think it will indicate positive progress for the future health of the genre.

I considered giving Darius Burst Second Prologue a vote (my favorite mobile shmup) but it just doesn't feel right to vote for a game with touch controls. Atleast right now, since it's pretty new to the genre. And luckily in this case, there's the super awesome arcade edition...

On the other hand, I included some Touhou games on my ballot, and I'd have no problem including those if they were on Steam.

The times, they are a changin'.

[spadgy]

I considered giving Darius Burst Second Prologue a vote (my favorite mobile shmup) but it just doesn't feel right to vote for a game with touch controls. Atleast right now, since it's pretty new to the genre. And luckily in this case, there's the super awesome arcade edition...

I see your point, absolutely. For me, with Danmaku Unlimited 2, the touch controls' capabilities perfectly matched the game's scoring mechanics and pace. I'm sure I could have loved it playing with a stick almost/just as much, but as a touch-only release I never felt the controls took away from the game.

And while it didn't make my list for unrelated reasons, the reworking of Espgaluda II in it's mobile 'Smartphone Mode' was great way of re-appropriating a shmup in the classic arcade form as something that worked very well with touch inputs. That convinced me touch can work well if the shmup is designed around it.

I've found several shmups on mobile give me ample precision through touch, but I appreciate I'm in a minority.

In the context one or two such games ever making the Top 25, I really feel if such a thing happened with truly deserving games, that could only be a good thing for the genre. Shmups being excellent on a wider range of platforms suits me!

[CKR]

What is the basis for top 25 shumps of all time, playability, popularity?

To be brutally honest, I can't be bothered to get into a wtf thread like this when most of the responses I have read have been wtf biased on personal opinion and nothing constructive to support their choices of shump titles.

I've thought about composing a list derived from the voting that would only include votes from people who placed in the top fifty percent of the high score leaderboards for ten of their twenty five selections. This would tally the votes for the people with the most expertise on the games they voted for. I don't know if I'll do it, but I thought it might be interesting. Also, I'm not sure how many people would qualify.

[AntiFritz]

What is the basis for top 25 shumps of all time, playability, popularity?

To be brutally honest, I can't be bothered to get into a wtf thread like this when most of the responses I have read have been wtf biased on personal opinion and nothing constructive to support their choices of shump titles.

From the rules

Your list can contain the games you think are the best overall, the most influential, most personally enjoyable, most underrated, etc.

I just voted for games I enjoy the most and have put the most time into.

[ACSeraph]

With my votes, I considered design, scoring mechanics, aesthetics, depth etc., but all they could ever be were 'the shmups spadgy liked the most'.

Yep, that's really all it comes down to, even for the best of the best players. There's no way to say really what is objectively best, just what spoke to you the most personally. Top 25 is definitely a popularity contest, but there's nothing wrong with that if you ask me. If nothing else it's just interesting to look at each persons individual lists to see what games they like the most. I'm more interested in that aspect than the final results really.

And to clarify, I still far prefer proper arcade shmups to mobile and such, but the day that shmups exist that make such a statement ridiculous would be a great one indeed. Quality shmups accessible in many different places would be good for the genre, us lot, and that mainstream gamer mob we glance down our noses at!

Totally agree with this. Mobile shmups have a ton of potential if only a really great one was designed specifically around the controls. You know why the Cave iOS ports are so easy? It's because the movement is so fluid and intuitive and you no longer have the mechanical third party separating your natural movements and the action on the screen. A shmup that built it's difficulty and mechanics around this concept could be godly and it wouldn't even have to target mobile platforms; it could easily be done on the WiiU.

Like for example lets imagine an Es.Pra.De II built around touch controls. You are in the roll of a psychic moving around fluidly with your mind. In the world of the game your movement isn't an issue of physical dexterity, but rather it's mental dexterity. By removing the mechanical controls you are creating a fluidity that better immerses you in the roll of psychic movement.

I wouldn't want to see traditional control styles go extinct, but there's no reason to believe there isn't room for both. In the right hands it could be the next big evolution for the genre after danmaku.

[Xyga]

Hey ever noticed the shmup.com forums own 'top' ?

http://forum.shmup.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16812

Based on around 78 (or 77?) voters own personal top 10, first sorted by number of votes for each title (first long list) then final top 15 by score (bottom of the page).

Top 15:

1. Dodonpachi (152 points)
2. Thunder Force III (135 points)
3. R-Type (128 points)
4. Gradius V (126 points)
5. Thunder Force IV (119 points)
6. Radiant Silvergun (118 points)
7. Mushihime-sama Futari Black Label (114 points)
8. Ikaruga (93 points)
8. Ketsui (93 points)
8. Mushihime-sama Futari (93 points)
11. Layer Section (88 points)
12. Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu (86 points)
12. Under Defeat (86 points)
14. Super Aleste (81 points)
15. ESPGaluda II (75 points)

That was back in 2012, maybe they'll do another one by the end of 2014.

[trap15]

Wow, they have even worse taste than the people here. Yikes

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

R-Type, Gradius V and Thunderforce IV in the top 5 where they belong. Such a superior list. Super Aleste though?

[BulletMagnet]

Super Aleste though?

How does one say "haters gonna hate" in French?

[Xyga]

Super Aleste though?

How does one say "haters gonna hate" in French?

A literal translation would be "les haineux vont haïr" but that doesn't sound right.
French-speaking Africans say "les jaloux vont maigrir" (the jealous will lose weight).

[BulletMagnet]

the jealous will lose weight

That sounds like an unofficial addition to the "Quotable RegalSin" thread.

[To Far Away Times]

Hey ever noticed the shmup.com forums own 'top' ?

http://forum.shmup.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16812

Based on around 78 (or 77?) voters own personal top 10, first sorted by number of votes for each title (first long list) then final top 15 by score (bottom of the page).

Top 15:

1. Dodonpachi (152 points)
2. Thunder Force III (135 points)
3. R-Type (128 points)
4. Gradius V (126 points)
5. Thunder Force IV (119 points)
6. Radiant Silvergun (118 points)
7. Mushihime-sama Futari Black Label (114 points)
8. Ikaruga (93 points)
8. Ketsui (93 points)
8. Mushihime-sama Futari (93 points)
11. Layer Section (88 points)
12. Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu (86 points)
12. Under Defeat (86 points)
14. Super Aleste (81 points)
15. ESPGaluda II (75 points)

That was back in 2012, maybe they'll do another one by the end of 2014.

I'm loving the top 3 in this one. And Garrega not even in the top 15! List starts getting really squirrely after the top 11 though.