....but is it a shmup? - Rail Shooters

[Sugar Rush Games]

Do you consider rail shooters to be shmups? I do. To me, they are basically 3D shmups. They have so much in common with 2D shmups; forced scrolling, fixed enemy patterns, deep scoring systems, etc.

What do you think?

[Sinful]

Never really got into this genre yet... so I should pass... wait. I called it another genre, so maybe I'm right in it being too different? But yeah, I think it's pretty different so far...

I'm still not voting yet.

Would be interesting to see what others say on this matter?

[KAI]

Yotsuba_NO.jpg

[Sugar Rush Games]

For those who think "no"; why not?

[Kollision]

I bid yes

but your avatar must be totally visible and there should be no free space moving ability
Lattice, Star Wars Arcade, Air Diver and Omega Boost are thus disqualified

give me After Burner (not III) any time of the day and I'm a happy shmupper

[Sugar Rush Games]

I bid yes

but your avatar must be totally visible and there should be no free space moving ability
Lattice, Star Wars Arcade, Air Diver and Omega Boost are thus disqualified

give me After Burner (not III) any time of the day and I'm a happy shmupper

Good point. Not just visible, but movable. Games like Star Fox and Panzer Dragoon therefore qualify, but Rez / Child of Eden would not.

[Pretas]

They're "shoot-em-ups" but not STGs.

[Kollision]

I bid yes

but your avatar must be totally visible and there should be no free space moving ability
Lattice, Star Wars Arcade, Air Diver and Omega Boost are thus disqualified

give me After Burner (not III) any time of the day and I'm a happy shmupper

Good point. Not just visible, but movable. Games like Star Fox and Panzer Dragoon therefore qualify, but Rez / Child of Eden would not.

Good point about Rez/CoE. I was envisioned Rez as a rail shmup, but not CoE.

[MathU]

Umm, now do you mean 3D shmups like Star Fox... Or actual rail shooters like House of the Dead? Because Star Fox is totally just a 3D scrolling shooter. Same genre as all the others around here, just add an extra dimension of maneuverability.

[Sugar Rush Games]

Umm, now do you mean 3D shmups like Star Fox... Or actual rail shooters like House of the Dead? Because Star Fox is totally just a 3D scrolling shooter. Same genre as all the others around here, just add an extra dimension of maneuverability.

Good question.

I mean behind the back, auto scrolling shooters like Star Fox, where the player can still maneuver their ship / character around as you move along the "rail"

I definitely do not mean games like House of the Dead, which I would classify as a light gun game. Most (but of course not all) light gun games tend to move on rails as well.

[MathU]

Most rail shooters are light gun games and most light gun games are rail shooters, but there are exceptions to both. Rez (non-light rail shooter) and Sin and Punishment 2 (non-rail light gun) come to mind. Well, really any game on the Wii that wasn't a rail shooter but still uses infrared aiming actually, like Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3, etc.

[Sugar Rush Games]

Most rail shooters are light gun games and most light gun games are rail shooters, but there are exceptions to both. Rez (non-light rail shooter) and Sin and Punishment 2 (non-rail light gun) come to mind. Well, really any game on the Wii that wasn't a rail shooter but still uses infrared aiming actually, like Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3, etc.

You and I are thinking of different things when we say "rail shooter"

I am talking about behind the back games where you "fly into the screen" like Star Fox, Panzer Dragoon, Afterburner, etc., etc. I was under the impression that these games are typically referred to as "rail shooters"

On the other hand, I thought games like House of the Dead were generally called "light gun games", not rail shooters, even though the action is of course on rails.

Isn't categorizing things fun?

[IseeThings]

The LD games that aren't just shitty Quick Time Event thngs would probably fall into this category too.. as well as things like Silpheed?

due to being video streams most of them are pretty limited so definitely 'on-rails' and some of them play a bit like shmups, there are even some overhead parts in one of the games (Mach3?) where really it's hard to call a difference between a non-interactive background provided by a video stream, and a non-interactive tilemap provided by regular video chips (something like the Dooyong games)

I wouldn't really call on-rails gun games like Dragon Gun shmups tho, no visible player object, no hitbox, no positional element, no bullet dodging.

[MR_Soren]

I voted no. While I think games like StarFox generally appeal to fans of shmups, the change of perspective, different movement options, life bars, and 3D aiming requires different skills and thought patterns.

[chempop]

Someone shoot me...





It's a shmup, I promise.

[null1024]

I say no [but I still love them, and I'm pretty sure that fans of shmups probably enjoy their share of rail shooters because of the overlap]. Whether it's fixed camera [remember kids: Rez is pretty much a lightgun game without lightgun support ] or full movement [Starfox, Panzer Dragoon, Space Harrier, etc], it's still not a shmup.

although, if someone made a game that was pretty much Rayforce except without the forward facing gun, it would probably count as a rail shooter -- aim targeting reticule, dodge a bunch of things in 2D and 3D, etc, pretty much just like Panzer Dragoon, since the focus is now pretty much completely away from attacking along your movement plane.

Silpheed is a shmup -- sure, it's presented from a 3D view, but you don't use 3D space at all. If you rotated the camera to normal, the game would play just about identically [ignoring how you would probably need a tall screen to do that, since Silpheed lets you go really far forward IIRC].


And seriously, fuck categories.

[CStarFlare]

They're "shoot-em-ups" but not STGs.

Bingo

It's the same thing as with 2D and 3D Zelda titles. They're different branches of the same tree. Kind of like how you can throw shoot-em-ups and sidescrollers under the header of "action game," but farther down the line.

Remember Ishkur's electronic music guide? It would be fun if something similar existed for games.

[AweOfShe]

I always thought stuff like Star Fox, After Burner, Galaxy Force, Sin and Punishment, and those types of rail shooters were, but I've never been good with this sub-categorizing stuff, sooo...

[Imhotep]

No, the important difference being the movement plane of the player sprite compared to the one of the other sprites (player attacks, enemies, environmental hazards, power-ups, ...):

In STGs it's mostly congruent (xy axis for everything), while in Rail Shooters it's mostly yz for the player xyz for the rest, with an emphasis on the x-axis, which is 90° rotated to the player's plane.

This leads to a mostly punctual manifestation of possible interaction between sprites (player getting hit by something, enemy getting hit by a player attack), which results in a gameplay quite different to STGs, where the potentials for interaction not only manifest at certain points, but travel in linear ways.

Sorry for the convoluted writing, I tried to describe it as precisely as I could.

Of course the difference in visual representation also has a big influence on the gaming experience.

[MathU]

They're "shoot-em-ups" but not STGs.

Japan uses "STGs" to refer to shooters all the way up to Halo, so yes I'm pretty sure they would be a part of that retarded abbreviation.

[MR_Soren]

They're "shoot-em-ups" but not STGs.

Japan uses "STGs" to refer to shooters all the way up to Halo, so yes I'm pretty sure they would be a part of that retarded abbreviation.

I actually prefer that abbreviation because "shmup" is such an awful word, but I had heard that as well. Japanese call all shooting games STGs, whether they are shmups, run and gun, rail shooter, fps, etc.

[greg]

This has been brought up so many times. Rail shooters fall under the unbrella of "shooting games." They're 3D shooters. Space Harrier, Afterburner, Burning Force, Star Fox, etc. Shmups are specifically 2D shooters. While shopping for games here in Japan, they all fall under the same "shooting" category at the stores. This also includes gun games (Lethal Enforcers, Elemental Gearbolt, etc) and run-'n-gun (Contra, Metal Slug, etc). Same category, different genres.

[futurematt5]

No, the important difference being the movement plane of the player sprite compared to the one of the other sprites (player attacks, enemies, environmental hazards, power-ups, ...):

In STGs it's mostly congruent (xy axis for everything), while in Rail Shooters it's mostly yz for the player xyz for the rest, with an emphasis on the x-axis, which is 90° rotated to the player's plane.

This leads to a mostly punctual manifestation of possible interaction between sprites (player getting hit by something, enemy getting hit by a player attack), which results in a gameplay quite different to STGs, where the potentials for interaction not only manifest at certain points, but travel in linear ways.

Sorry for the convoluted writing, I tried to describe it as precisely as I could.

Of course the difference in visual representation also has a big influence on the gaming experience.

I think that does a great job of describing the difference between rail shooters and 2D shooters. The problem with this thread is that the term "shmup" is used. Of course, academia is littered with - hey, pretty much revolves around - the meaning of words, whose definitions are always disputable with further academic discourse.

The only correct action is to take a Philosophy degree and hammer it out there.

As for rail shooters, a question of taste. Personally, while I love the occassional game of Space Harrier, or Sin and Punishment 2, Rez, Panzer or Starfox 3D, I cannot say they provide remotely the same gameplay quality that I love in 2D shooters, and I am not in any way addicted to them like I am to 2D shooters.

[Captain]

The real question is...

Is Bioship Paladin a shmup?

[Kollision]

Is Bioship Paladin a shmup?

that's not a tricky question
of course it is

[royalfan84]

I love Starfox 64, Sin and Punishment, and Panzer Dragoon....that being said...I don't see them in the same genre as 2D forced scrolling shooters. StarFox has free-flying missions and boss fights and in panzer dragoon in some cases you can fly around into multiple spaces.

[Captain]

Is Bioship Paladin a shmup?

that's not a tricky question
of course it is

The main way to attack is to summon a crosshair and rail shoot everything, but you move your ship like in any other shmup.

[greg]

How about, "No, because Malc says so"?

[Despatche]

this is why i dislike the whole "video game genre forum" thing. it kinda works if you're more general like "racing games" or "puzzle games", but this is a specific list of certain subgenres and/or game traits. basically the definition of "shmup" is indeed what malc makes of it.

but at this point i've given up and am looking forward to seeing the floodgates open for contra/metal slug, which means we'll get rockman, which means we'll get mario...

[greg]

...and stuff like Ace Combat and such. That's why this place has its very specific focus, and it has been labeled as "shmups." Because of this site/forum, even Japanese game companies are calling these games "shmups." Every once in a while, a user (often a newbie) will come along and challenge this notion. It doesn't mean that we don't like games like Space Harrier and such. I just bought Air Force Delta for the DC. But the definition of what a shmup is has been purposely and specifically laid out. Cotton is a shmup. Panorama Cotton is a rail shooter. Cotton Boomerang is a shmup, while Rainbow Cotton isn't.