Arcade Sticks VS Gamepads. + What makes a quality Stick?

[Sinful]

- Please, no answers like "I only tried a stick for a little bit, didn't click with me ASAP, so definately gamepads are the best." As I'd really want to know if someone who has lots of experience with both explain what their honest conclusion is.

- Do you think one or the other can make you reach higher shmuping standards skill wise?

- And what makes a quality Arcade Stick? I heard someone say they only had the new Street Fighter IV Arcade Stick then when they bought a certain Japanese brand Arcade stick, it was way better and made the SF one seem like crap by comparison? Why? What made it better? Is there less play in the actual stick itself (so to move right in a shmup, you barely have to move the physical stick to the right to trigger that movement)? Ditto for the buttons. Does the weight of it all matter much? etc.

[Jaimers]

- Do you think one or the other can make you reach higher shmuping standards skill wise?

No.

This is a purely preferential thing. Just use what is the most comfortable for yourself.

[gray117]

Objectively minimal movement for input will probably garner best results - so probably something like a hitbox will be the best 'tool'.

However, subjectively, I find stick playing the most satisfying and comparable/appreciable means of play. Thus, I enjoy playing it more, therefore, it's the one I will only tend to play with and would recommend.

Upshot: Practice makes perfect - play/practice with whatever is most enjoyable to you.

My views + the other details on sticks and buttons (7th post) in here along with plenty of others that you may find useful:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47777

[Aquas]

I've always preferred Hori over Madkatz when it comes to arcade sticks for the current gen consoles and PC. Not sure what it is exactly but none of my Hori Sanwa-JLF sticks have had any wear down. I've tried many Mad Katz sticks and usually I'm not pleased with the state the stick is in. Mad Katz usually feel lose and wore from what other people do to them. (I've tried a variety of the sticks on the market because I go to fighting game casual sessions and I ask to use other people's sometimes.)

I know many of the sticks use the same Sanwa-JLF but there are other components that factor in their make. Maybe someone could elucidate on this.

Maybe they just mash or "churn butter" more than me, though. I've never personally owned a Mad Katz stick either, so that's where my opinion stands.

Also I prefer stick like the guy above me, just more fun.

[Obiwanshinobi]

You didn't ask about keyboard, but it has got one thing going for it - whether you prefer to control movement with your right or left hand, it's about equally convenient either way there.

[Sinful]

Yeah, reason I brought this topic up was that my brother left for a month & 1/2 vacation and I gave him my wired white gamestop X-Box 360 controller (all other wired X-Box 360 controllers have insanely bad D-Pad for some reason? This white, not the black, gamestop gamepad seems the closest to the white offcial wireless X-Box 360 gamepad D-Pads), in hopes that I'd find the exact same one at EB Games again. Wrong. I can't. But I've had the new MK & SF Arcade Sticks for some time now. The MK one's buttons are way too far apart & with weird for anything else botton placement. Think Stick has longer movement reach too? I forget? But only good for MK gaming only.

Anywho, the SFIV one seems just right for starting out & all kinds of gaming. Just never got into it ASAP cause I do all my gaming & PC browsing lying on a bed lengthwise with 3 pillows underneath my head (and only 1 for when I sleep). And playing with an Arcade Stick it seems like a must to sit in a lame chair in front of a table of proper hight? Well, I'm stuborn when it comes to total comfort. So I lazely started playing with it in my lap, even though it was uncomfortable too, lol. Eventually I figured out what to do to make this a comfortable experience. By placing two towels (for now), one of each leg near my waist, underneath the far end of the SFIV Stick so that it's a bit on an incline toward me. Next I had to put something very thin and soft undereath in the front so it wouldn't painfully dig into my bottom of stomach area. And presto. Comfortable Arcade setup... oh, and in front of a 50" widescreen TV too, of course (where I drag my PC & emulated games onto too).

And yeah, don't know if it's because it's a new experience still or not, but I'm starting to have more fun gaming now that I've finally got a better hang of playing with an Arcade Stick, finally.

Now to invertigate on what makes a better Arcade Stick for future spending? Plus if I should also get the PS3 SFIV AC STick too?

- Do you think one or the other can make you reach higher shmuping standards skill wise?

No.

This is a purely preferential thing. Just use what is the most comfortable for yourself.

How do you know 100% for sure? What kinda study & tests have you done? Can I see your work on this too?

Objectively minimal movement for input will probably garner best results - so probably something like a hitbox will be the best 'tool'.

However, subjectively, I find stick playing the most satisfying and comparable/appreciable means of play. Thus, I enjoy playing it more, therefore, it's the one I will only tend to play with and would recommend.

Upshot: Practice makes perfect - play/practice with whatever is most enjoyable to you.

My views + the other details on sticks and buttons (7th post) in here along with plenty of others that you may find useful:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47777

Cool, thanks for that other link where this topic was brought up before. And thanks for your, & Aquas, input on the matter here.

You didn't ask about keyboard, but it has got one thing going for it - whether you prefer to control movement with your right or left hand, it's about equally convenient either way there.

I'm pretty sure keyboards are the ultimate in playing you bestest best? Why? Cause you can have a finger a each and every button and direction at the same time for lightning quick reaction time. So nothing can outspeed a keyboard player from this perspective I'm seeing, unless I'm missing something? But man, they seem so uncomfortable and totally lacking in the fun department in comaprsion to gamepads & Arcade Sticks? Like how much better a driving game is with a Steering Wheel VS gamepads sort of thing. Or playing a tank game with Twin Sticks VS gamepad. Get what I mean? Plus there really is quite a few things that seem to go against comfort gaming when using a keyboard? ... And gaming with a device made for typing? It's like saying "Here's a PC mouse to replace your car steering wheel," ie. It just don't seem right to me at all?

[Erppo]

How do you know 100% for sure?

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 98#p628998
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 87#p807587

Unless you're aiming higher than those two, you shouldn't worry about using a keyboard/pad. Probably not even then.

[shmuppyLove]

Unless you're aiming higher than those two, you shouldn't worry about using a keyboard/pad. Probably not even then.

That's a good tip.

Unless you're planning on putting in the time to go for WR runs, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

And if you are planning on putting in the time and effort, you should try as many control types as you can to see what works best for you. It wouldn't make sense to limit yourself to one that's "objectively" the best (based on other people's opinions), because there is no such thing.

One thing I will throw out there about keyboard play is that I personally find it hard to combine directions and quickly switch to opposites (up/down, left/right).

I remember also reading about something with the hitbox, where they had to design around the problem of hitting opposite directions. For example, if you're holding right and then press left, what should happen? Should they "cancel" each other out and you stop moving or should you start moving left? If you start moving left and then let go of the left button, then what happens? You start moving back to the right? What happens if you're holding left and right and then you press up? Do you move diagonally up to the left or to the right? Does it depend on which of the left or right buttons you pressed first or second?

It might not seem like a big deal, but what you expect to happen and what your keyboard does may be two different things. With a joystick it's impossible to mix up directions like this, so it's more predictable in that way.

I dunno, as I say I've never tried serious keyboard play, so maybe I'm all wet, but that's my ramble.

[emphatic]

Playing with arcade sticks should really only be for two reasons:

1. You are old enough to have experienced an actual arcade
2. You plan on visiting arcades or shmup meets and playing competitively at them

I've never been able to play properly on a pad, so I would choose a keyboard or a hitbox if I hadn't already played on joysticks since 1986.

[trap15]

I disagree. I just think playing on a stick feels better. This is entirely an opinion thing, so just try it, don't assume someone else's opinion will end up being the same as your own.

[Cagar]

How do you know 100% for sure?

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 98#p628998
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 87#p807587

Unless you're aiming higher than those two, you shouldn't worry about using a keyboard/pad. Probably not even then.

Even that proves nothing. Of course cool things have been done with all kinds of controller, but what if prometheus had played with an arcade stick from the very beginning? Would he have done even better scores and runs?
We can never be 100% sure about the controllers being equal.
Let's think it this way: If 4 groups of 500 new players were given different control methods, one group = keyboard, one group = arcade stick, one group = gamepad and the last group dance dance revolution controllers. Then they get 1000 hours to practice mushihimesama futari, I'm sure we would see some real differences.

I'm sure this is what Sinful is trying to say

[Elaphe]

A gamepad is fine for most games, but it's not the perfect controller for any. As regards shmups, the best stick is the one that offers more precission. For me, this is provided by short engagement (the distance till the actuator presses the microswitches buttons), by short throw (the total distance the stick travels up to its limits, which must not exceed the engagement distance by too much) and squared or octogonal type of movement (which lets you feel the corners best for diagonal movement). As regards the buttons, in my opinion, that's just a matter of personal preference (I like western concave type, because I found the flat japanese buttons hurt my fingers and they are sometimes too sensitive, which can lead to unvoluntary presses). The layout also has to do with confort, so if you feel it fine, you will be able to play better and for longer time. A common mistake in many japanese panels is that the stick is too close to the buttons, which forces your arms to an unnatural positon. For me, the best stick I've tried for shmups is the Suzo, which is the one I've got installed in my homemade panel. Some western models by Industrias Lorenzo perfom good too. I've tried some Japanese sticks such as Sanwas and Seimitsus and I cannot stand them at all.

[Ghegs]

We can never be 100% sure about the controllers being equal.

Both sticks and gamepads have a digital 8-way direction controller, where only a single direction can be active at a time, along with 2-8 digital buttons. Everything else (throw, the way you grip, position of hands, amount of force needed to push the buttons, etc) comes down to the controller's quality and player's preference. They are equal. Keyboards and DDR pads are the ones that are different from this standard and therefore possibly unequal.

[Bananamatic]

Doesn't switching directions on a gamepad take more time than on a stick though?

[Ghegs]

Why would it? And if so, it would depend on the size and "throw" of the d-pad vs. the same things on a stick, making it part of the Everything Else that comes down to the controller's quality.

[Cagar]

We can never be 100% sure about the controllers being equal.

Both sticks and gamepads have a digital 8-way direction controller, where only a single direction can be active at a time, along with 2-8 digital buttons. Everything else (throw, the way you grip, position of hands, amount of force needed to push the buttons, etc) comes down to the controller's quality and player's preference. They are equal. Keyboards and DDR pads are the ones that are different from this standard and therefore possibly unequal.

Yeah of course, but it's still very different to play with your thumb instead of your whole hand. We don't know if playing with a stick (your hand) takes more advantage of your brain/hand-eye coordination instead of just using your thumb, or simply it's just faster take make quick but accurate moves with your thumb vs. your whole hand. I don't know, no-one does, but we can speculate

[Squire Grooktook]

Having seen these conversations a lot with fighting games, here's basically the way I see it: There probably are some slight advantages and disadvantages for each control method, but they are so incredibly subtle that it shouldn't really hold anyone back who has the determination to reach their goals anyway. Certain types of execution might be very slightly harder to master on a pad, but if you have the determination to become a pro or go for a world record anyway, than such things are a comparatively small obstacle to overcome compared to the more immediate hazards you will be facing.

I think it's right to endorse using whatever you feel most comfortable with and whatever you think "feels" the most fun to play with.

[Cagar]

I think it's right to endorse using whatever you feel most comfortable with and whatever you think "feels" the most fun to play with.

Yeah, this.

[Emuser]

I too am on board with the "what you feel comfortable with" comments, I have spent a fair share of time playing keyboard in my early days, pad for a while, stick after that, and then pad again for master race pad player. I used keyboard for a while before I even thought of using other usb controllers just because I had been doing keyboard back when usb was starting to emerge. Eventually I did a full circle and came back to pads, not knocking the others since I've had some good success across all control styles, pads just click with me the best and I've shown some pretty dumb scores with a standard xbox pad before.

I feel like you need a stick with good quality parts to get the most out of that control style, you really cannot perform the precise movements you need with some shmups if you don't have a good stick.

On an overall basis, finding a good reliable pad is a problem in itself, a crappy pad will get you nowhere at all and there are more bad pads out there vs good ones by quite a brutal margin.

[Softdrink 117]

It definitely comes down to personal preference. I will admit to some serious pro-arcade-stick bias, but I've also done very well on pads, and I frequently play doujins on keyboard. I think most of my attraction to sticks stems from my experience playing shmups and other games in arcade cabinets when I was younger.

Personally, I find that sticks are not only more comfortable, but also more satisfying to play on. It feels like I'm really playing an arcade game. That idea of the 'arcade experience' is a very slippery slope though... down that path lies cab envy, which leads to buying a cab, which quickly degenerates to buying another cab and some pcbs and wondering where the hell your money went.

As far as parts go, I have no preference as long as they are real arcade parts. Sanwa or Seimitsu, doesn't matter to me. But if it's a knockoff or a third party I can tell right away, and it usually messes me up. For my own gear, I have a very, very slight bias towards Seimitsu sticks and Sanwa buttons, but I've set personal records on other people's setups which use ftotally different stuff.

[Sinful]

@Cagar; yeah, you know what I'm talknig about. I guess just not many people here have scientfic minds or a great interest for detail (I see this so much to know for a fact that many, many people don't) or something? Cuase things in life aint that simple.

But for my buttons on Arcade sticks, I can't agree with you. For I want the option of being able to tap the fire buttons too. So Buttons that take the shortest distance to trigger + being touchy as hell is way prefered to me to more easily reach higher firepower tapping rates & comfort. Accidentally touching the bombs sounds like a pretty small patatoes issue to me. I'm sure I can overcome np too. If not, I'll purposely fire them all off ASAP. >_<


And hey, do you know what Arcade sticks & buttons where like for shmups of back in the day in Japan, US, EUR, and wherever else? If you need some shmup examples. I'd like to know for Darius, Gradius, R-Type, Raiden & Toaplan games. Please & thanks you.

There probably are some slight advantages and disadvantages for each control method, but they are so incredibly subtle that it shouldn't really hold anyone back who has the determination to reach their goals anyway

I don't believe so. As even in the unlikely event that one does reach equal top skills in both, the amount of time it would it would of too to reach that goal woulf at least vary greatly between the two.

There really are very many variables at play here. Many that don't even come to mind or even think could be a factor in this? So yes. This is something that needs exhaustive & very controlled enviroment for proper testing & results.

I think it's right to endorse using whatever you feel most comfortable with and whatever you think "feels" the most fun to play with.

Yeah, sure, why not. But that doesn't answer my question.

[Thjodbjorn]

We can never be 100% sure about the controllers being equal.

Both sticks and gamepads have a digital 8-way direction controller, where only a single direction can be active at a time, along with 2-8 digital buttons. Everything else (throw, the way you grip, position of hands, amount of force needed to push the buttons, etc) comes down to the controller's quality and player's preference. They are equal. Keyboards and DDR pads are the ones that are different from this standard and therefore possibly unequal.

Yeah of course, but it's still very different to play with your thumb instead of your whole hand. We don't know if playing with a stick (your hand) takes more advantage of your brain/hand-eye coordination instead of just using your thumb, or simply it's just faster take make quick but accurate moves with your thumb vs. your whole hand. I don't know, no-one does, but we can speculate

For me it is much easier to move my wrist than just my thumb. It stands the repetition better as well.

[drauch]

Quality comes with parts, just like anything else. There are different microswitches, buttons have different sensitivity, sticks play differently, you can change the gate on sticks, etc. This is all preference, regarldess. But it's hard denying the quality of a nice, custom stick with good components compared to some pre-made budget stick with stock buttons and stick.

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't believe so. As even in the unlikely event that one does reach equal top skills in both, the amount of time it would it would of too to reach that goal woulf at least vary greatly between the two.

From what I've seen from fighting games, the absolute hardest techniques to master on a pad take maybe 1 extra month before you can do them consistently on a pad...which isn't that much of a big deal when you might be putting years into mastering a game or the genre. 1 extra month isn't what I'd call "varrying greatly".

And relearning an entire new control method after using the other one for your whole life usually takes at least 3 monthes. If you're going for time, logistically it seems like one would be better off just sticking with whatever control method they already love IMO.

Also not related to this but I think the argument that "Oh, X top player who uses a Y control method might be so much better if he used Z control method" is silly to me because these grand masters have put so much effort into trampling every single obstacle they've faced, the slight disadvantages in control methods are probably the easiest and first of those obstacles to fall.

[Bananamatic]

Quality comes with parts, just like anything else. There are different microswitches, buttons have different sensitivity, sticks play differently, you can change the gate on sticks, etc. This is all preference, regarldess. But it's hard denying the quality of a nice, custom stick with good components compared to some pre-made budget stick with stock buttons and stick.

Not with keyboards, that's why keyboards are master race

[Softdrink 117]

Not with keyboards, that's why keyboards are master race

Blatant. Lies.

Keyboards have far more variation than arcade hardware: Key profile, dimensions, layout; rubber dome, scissor, or mechanical switches (And within the mechanical category: Cherry? [What color? Damped or undamped? Which stabilizer type? MX or ML?] Alps? Topre capactiative? Buckling spring? [IBM or Unicomp?]); how many keys until rollover; plate mount or just pcb; what case material; what angle; etc, etc etc.

Most consumer keyboards are between awful and barely tolerable for any purpose. Mechanical boards are great, but expensive, and most people (at least that I've met) aren't even aware that they exist.

I will agree with you that a good, high quality keyboard is every bit as capable an input device as a stick or a pad, but the argument that keyboards are superior because they are uniform in quality is just absolute crap.

[drauch]

*Edit. Softdrink and I posted at about the same time it looks. Just ignore me. His write up is much better.

[Bananamatic]

Not with keyboards, that's why keyboards are master race

Blatant. Lies.

Keyboards have far more variation than arcade hardware: Key profile, dimensions, layout; rubber dome, scissor, or mechanical switches (And within the mechanical category: Cherry? [What color? Damped or undamped? Which stabilizer type? MX or ML?] Alps? Topre capactiative? Buckling spring? [IBM or Unicomp?]); how many keys until rollover; plate mount or just pcb; what case material; what angle; etc, etc etc.

Most consumer keyboards are between awful and barely tolerable for any purpose. Mechanical boards are great, but expensive, and most people (at least that I've met) aren't even aware that they exist.

I will agree with you that a good, high quality keyboard is every bit as capable an input device as a stick or a pad, but the argument that keyboards are superior because they are uniform in quality is just absolute crap.

I play with a stock $10 logitech keyboard and it feels pretty much perfect, even on 2nd loops every death feels like my own mistake instead of the controls not being good(compared to the 360 dpad for example)
I don't think that I would play better after dropping $100 on a mechanical keyboard.
Find another $10 input device that feels good enough that you don't feel like you have to get a better one and I'll agree with you.

Good sticks are pretty damn expensive and good pads aren't easy to get or they cost a ton too.

[Softdrink 117]

I play with a stock $10 logitech keyboard and it feels pretty much perfect, even on 2nd loops every death feels like my own mistake instead of the controls not being good(compared to the 360 dpad for example)
I don't think that I would play better after dropping $100 on a mechanical keyboard.
Find another $10 input device that feels good enough that you don't feel like you have to get a better one and I'll agree with you.

Good sticks are pretty damn expensive and good pads aren't easy to get or they cost a ton too.

Well if that works for you then more power to you; I'm not at all trying to criticize your preferences or your skill, just trying to keep the thread straightforward and informative.

The overwhelming majority of cheap keyboards have limited key rollover, which means that if you press more than three or four buttons at once they will start canceling inputs. So either you got a model which doesn't suffer as badly from this issue, or your playstyle does not involve pressing more than two or three buttons at any given time, which is also quite possible. My experience of playing shmups on a cheap keyboard was that I would constantly have one of the buttons dropping out, and even once I got used to that the key travel didn't feel particularly responsive.

There are some tolerable cheap keyboards though, so I suppose that if "good enough" is what you're after it can be a reasonable option.

[Bananamatic]

I just tested it and when I had 3 keys pressed at once, the bomb button didn't register at all. Never had this issue when playing though.

By default, no matter how shitty, a keyboard gives you this:
3 fingers for 4 directions so you can switch direction instantly
No unwanted diagonals

It's hard to find even 1 of those things in a pad these days(even the $100 MLG madcatz ones). On the other hand I've seen pads where I pressed left+up and went right.

The only thing stopping keyboards is the lack of support on consoles(I guess you can get around that with one of those overpriced keyboard adapters though). Other than that, it's by far the most cost efficient way of getting good input.

If anyone is wondering, it's the Logitech Classic Keyboard 200. Maybe it's some magical shmup keyboard, I don't know