Darius Gaiden auto fire cheat. What evidence says its right?

[Sinful]

So yay, still messing around with the Darius games, and been looking into this auto fire cheat debate just a bit. And I can't find any evidence that supports this. Only that go against it. So here's what I got so far;

- they say "well part II had it in the dip switches." It also has invulnerability in the dip switches too. But even still, these two Darius games are very different, and Gaiden don' have auto-fire in the dip switches. It's only available in the home versions, as a "cheat code." If it was meant to be used, it would of been in the options menu, like how they did with G Darius.
- "Gaiden Extra official hack has it, so it was meant to be in." Yeah, they released the game by forgetting to implament it. Going "Oh noes?! Who screwed this up. We'd better get right on this and release a fix ASAP!" Only to be released 6 months later with a bunch of other changes. And this game basically has a debug/cheat menu popup at the touch of two buttons. Come on, do I have to explain this further? It's open & shut case. And if this version starts out with the rapid fire cheat on, isn't it at least harder then the original to help make up for it a bit? So this version is different enough then the last to not be considered the same in terms of balance.
- nobody can rapid tap at that insane rate. So if you want auto fire, don't make it higher then 5 or 6 delay. You want faster, tap it.
- "game is very beatable without the rapid fire cheat," say many.
- the default rapid fire seems actually very correct to me, as it's a pace that someone could comfortably tap throughout the whole game, with a few spots where you'd save some stamina for a higher rate. So it's just there as a convenience. So you only have to tap when you want some extra firepower. I mean, wow, why aren't all games like this? This is genius. I'm very impressed.
- "bosses last too long" so... lets cheat to fix that instead? ... I also hear using your missiles helps a lot.
- if the game is too hard, start with easy. Nothing wrong with that. Still to hard? You can also lower the rank in the dip switches for each level, though kinda seems going to far, but hey, if you feel you really need it. It's fine too.


I think the only reason the high score table has auto fire in it, is maybe cause without it, many wouldn't even participate in it. Sad, but seems true? Guess this style of games are completely out of favour with todays shmup crowd?

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

You can kill Titanic Lance in seconds with point-blanking abuse. I don't think that's suppose to happen normally.

[bsidwell]

I use autofire because I like having hands that work and want to continue having hands that work.

[rancor]

If your home planet is sending you out to save the universe in the most advanced ship ever designed, the absolute LEAST they could do is give you an auto-cannon...

[louisg]

The attract mode shows the player using autofire

[mdl]

Did you have a point somewhere in there?

I have yet to find either a Darius Gaiden cab in Tokyo without an autofire button or a person who has sat down and gone, "yes, today I think I will mash the shit out of the normal shot button instead".

When I went to Ebisen and asked for Darius Gaiden to be swapped in, the owner immediately asked, "15 or 30 Hz autofire?"

[Kollision]

Geez, before we all go apeshit yet AGAIN on this...

There are 3 cases here:

1. No autofire at all (mash buttons like crazy)
2. Autofire (normal/regular autofire, default condition as far as I know)
3. Cheat autofire (ultra rapid autofire)

option 1 is obviously not to be confused with option 2

[shmuppyLove]

Had to play this for some tournament (MARS-TS1 I think) and autofire was not allowed. Learned to tap very quickly using first two fingers on my right hand when I needed (bosses and such).

Still way easier with autofire, but it's manageable without it.

I would be cool if they had implemented a simple rank system that made the game more difficult when the firing rate is increased, similar to Yagawa, and then made it adjustable in a similar fashion.

trap15, haxx pls

[trap15]

similar to Yagawa

You mean Gun Frontier

Anyways, anyone who's against using autofire is dumb and a poopnose. Go away.

[KAI]

[NzzpNzzp]

I mean, wow, why aren't all games like this? This is genius. I'm very impressed.

Because nobody other than you thinks tapping instead of just holding shoot is fun.

[To Far Away Times]

I'd argue it ends up becoming a better game with autofire enabled. That's probably the main reason the autofire hack is "acceptable" in this game and not in many others.

[shmuppyLove]

You mean Gun Frontier

Anyways, anyone who's against using autofire is dumb and a poopnose. Go away.

I thought in YGW games the rank increase is affected by the autofire rate to a degree? Some base value increase? No? Crickets?

[BulletMagnet]

I thought in YGW games the rank increase is affected by the autofire rate to a degree? Some base value increase? No? Crickets?

It is, if you up it too much beyond the default, and the higher it goes the faster the rank increases.

[KAI]

better game

wut?!



Tapping is fun.

[trap15]

I thought in YGW games the rank increase is affected by the autofire rate to a degree? Some base value increase? No? Crickets?

It is, but that was taken from Gun Frontier.

I'd argue it ends up becoming a better game with autofire enabled. That's probably the main reason the autofire hack is "acceptable" in this game and not in many others.

Please explain how it's a hack. It doesn't modify the game in any way. It is not a hack. It is widely accepted as normal and standard in all real arcade scenarios, and I don't think I've ever heard of a JP arcade without some form of autofire setup.

[Ed Oscuro]

The evolution of autofire discussion:

Some guy at Toaplan: "It's fun to feel like you're working hard at shooting the enemy, it creates a sense of physical danger!"
Random players at the arcade: "That was fun but ow my carpal tunnel"
Smooth operator at the amusement machine company: AUTOFIRE, it prints gold!
Some guy at Taito: Well see how you like THIS
Random players: Ehh this is still Gun Frontier, nice try though
SOME TIME LATER: SCENES INSIDE A DIRTY GARAGE
Random players: Whoaaaaa!

(n)+1 time later: Some random guy finds MAME, says "hey guys, it's fun to feel like you're working hard at shooting the enemy, it creates a sense of physical danger!"

[MathU]

I feel I've said just about all I can possibly say on this in several other threads now. Pretty simply: the ~30 Hz rapidfire hack/cheat attached to some arcade setups and found in the console ports cracks the game wide open, eliminating a fair bit of the depth from the game and very drastically lowering its difficulty. This idea that you need to break your hand to beat the game is silly. The game's default firing rate is perfectly adequate for handling the vast majority of situations without ever even needing to tap the shot button. Part of the skill in the game is all about learning how to use your weapons properly and rapidfire removes the necessity for that.

[alpachinko]

The evolution of autofire discussion:

Some guy at Toaplan: "It's fun to feel like you're working hard at shooting the enemy, it creates a sense of physical danger!"
Random players at the arcade: "That was fun but ow my carpal tunnel"
Smooth operator at the amusement machine company: AUTOFIRE, it prints gold!
Some guy at Taito: Well see how you like THIS
Random players: Ehh this is still Gun Frontier, nice try though
SOME TIME LATER: SCENES INSIDE A DIRTY GARAGE
Random players: Whoaaaaa!

(n)+1 time later: Some random guy finds MAME, says "hey guys, it's fun to feel like you're working hard at shooting the enemy, it creates a sense of physical danger!"

Nice. Enjoyed this rather amusing and truthful summary

[ACSeraph]

I feel I've said just about all I can possibly say on this in several other threads now. Pretty simply: the ~30 Hz rapidfire hack/cheat attached to some arcade setups and found in the console ports cracks the game wide open, eliminating a fair bit of the depth from the game and very drastically lowering its difficulty. This idea that you need to break your hand to beat the game is silly. The game's default firing rate is perfectly adequate for handling the vast majority of situations without ever even needing to tap the shot button. Part of the skill in the game is all about learning how to use your weapons properly and rapidfire removes the necessity for that.

^this

It seems like a lot of people in here don't realise that we are talking specifically about Darius Gaiden, and that the game has auto fire by default. We are talking about a cheat. That let's you fire at a rate no human could.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, Darius Gaiden has a decent enough autofire rate by default (it does feel like some enemies take a lot of firepower to take down, doesn't help that you take a hefty power drop on a death, but a lot of it is learning to hit with your missiles as well as your main shots, the missiles do a lot of damage), but setting it to 30hz tapping makes it crazy stupid, and feels way too broken.

A more recent (and more horrible) example of this is Sine Mora. Yes, it has autofire if you hold the shot button, but it's really slow, like a lot slower than Darius Gaiden's is, your main gun is weaker and has less spread, and if you use an autofire controller it gets even more broken than using 30hz auto on DG does.

Games really shouldn't be designed to allow massive shot speed increases just by mashing the button, then you'd be able to have the game designed around its autofire rate rather than having it so slow/non-tappers get handicapped and people who mash or have access to hardware (or are emulating) get huge damage boosts.

[Acid King]

The high score table allows autofire because it's standard in Japanese arcades and disallowing it would mean not allowing participants to compete on comparable terms. You can still submit entries without it, so I don't see the big deal.

Honestly, I don't see how this is much different than using autofire in Mushihimesama. It may not have been something Cave put in the PCB, but it became standard after players realized they could exploit the scoring system better with autofire hacks and Cave ended up making them a feature in the ports. Taito probably did the same thing for the Darius Gaiden port after seeing autofire circuits become standard for high score players and in arcades.

[Sinful]

You can kill Titanic Lance in seconds with point-blanking abuse. I don't think that's suppose to happen normally.

Yes, but point blank is a hight risk high reward kinda of thing. Well yeah, until you really get a good handlle of all patterns. But this is with everything else too.

I use autofire because I like having hands that work and want to continue having hands that work.

If your home planet is sending you out to save the universe in the most advanced ship ever designed, the absolute LEAST they could do is give you an auto-cannon...

Fine, use auto fire then, but not one at an insane/inhuman impossible rate. Set it to 5 or 6 delay like I said. And not 1 delay like the cheat code is.

The attract mode shows the player using autofire

Doesn't the attract mode also start the first level fully powered up too like all the other Darius games I recall? *double checks* Yep. Nice try, but this answer is now invalid also.

similar to Yagawa

Anyways, anyone who's against using autofire is dumb and a poopnose. Go away.

You don't get it still. There's a big difference between 1 delay auto fire and what humanly possible (around 5 delay). One the dev's didn't balance the game around, and one the dev's did. So if they didin't balance the game around one of them, it's cheating. Point of topic. But I am looking to see if I could be wrong with valid responses?

I mean, wow, why aren't all games like this? This is genius. I'm very impressed.

Because nobody other than you thinks tapping instead of just holding shoot is fun.

Again, who says I don't tap? Who says I don't aternate between standard auto and a 5 or 6 delay instead? Wasn't I the one that bitched awhile ago about getting that very annoyingly high default auto fire delay in shmupmane not to long ago? But with this game I actually find tapping once in awhile is quite fun when I want a bit more auto fire. Makes me want to switch to an Arcade Stcik faster so I can tap all the time sooner now (I think tapping on a Arcade Stick is fine, while on a gamepad I can understand wanting auto fire).

And who says the default auto fire ain't fine as is for the entire game? Again, many say it's fine as is, as the game is very doable with just it alone.

I'd argue it ends up becoming a better game with autofire enabled. That's probably the main reason the autofire hack is "acceptable" in this game and not in many others.

Then why is everyone affraid of playing shmups below normal difficulty? Doesn't auto fire cheat in this game make it easier then normal difficulty? Maybe easier then easy, even? Yeah. It don't add up. If you don't believe in playing on Easy difficulty settings, the same should apply to 1 delay auto fire.



K, I'm gonna stop here for now. Want some time for shmuping this morning before I leave for something. Will check other replies later when I get back home. Thanks for participating. You're all lovely people.

[Jaimers]

The standard for competitive play and records everywhere is with autofire enabled. Which makes discussion about that irrelevant and pointless if you want to compete.

You can still play the game casually however you like.

[KAI]

links?
Can't find anything about autofire on/off on this site

[Ko.oS]

^ actually, arcadia/gamest magazine stopped caring for darius gaiden records back in summer 1995 due to some 'possible infinite score (bug)' thingie.. notice how the DG hiscores on that page are in grey? also gemant's old database only says autofire ON, it doesn't specify the rate/hz/whatever.

"(...) now, the question is - is an external autofire circuit cheating? if it sells, who cares!"

[Zerst]

I no missed the game without autofire. I know it seems silly but I'm on the side of it being really balanced without. There are only a handful of points in the game where you need to mash to kill the enemies before they pose a threat. The remainder can be accomplished nearly as well just holding the button down, and enemies/bosses take just as long to kill as it seems like they were intended to.

Now games where holding down the fire button shoots one shot every full second, or one shot period, fuck them autofire away.

[bkk]

The game's default firing rate is perfectly adequate for handling the vast majority of situations without ever even needing to tap the shot button.

In this particular game you can tap quite slowly and still improve on the default rate, the designers obviously intended for you to do this.

Being a connoisseur of shooting games and having autofire readily available, I can't be bothered to tap. Both no auto and 30Hz auto make the game worse than it could be, the latter option slightly less so. But if you're going for a high score you'll obviously use the highest rate possible.

[abcabcabc339]

Mashing is a retarded game mechanic. Especially when the speed of it is unlimited.

[trap15]

The standard for competitive play and records everywhere is with autofire enabled. Which makes discussion about that irrelevant and pointless if you want to compete.

You can still play the game casually however you like.