Mushi Futari BL Japanese vs International "Another Ver"

[ookitarepanda]

A while ago, back when Cave-STG existed as a forum, I had the delightful opportunity to shed some insight on the differences between the Mushihimesama Futari Black Label versions. A friend of ours, a non-local, had lent us a MFBL Japanese board back in 2009 for almost a year before we were asked to return it. My friend Alex (not a member on the forums) was so enamored by the game that once it was returned, he went straight to buying a full kit from an online distributor, sometime in late 2010. When he received it, he noticed that the startup screen was different, and that it was the "International BL," or as it said on the title screen, "Another Ver."

We read up a little bit from what information was available, only to find that anyone who had the Another Ver. had discovered absolutely no differences. You can see that in sales posts like this. I even asked Cave via their twitter account where Masa King used to reply to practically everybody, but the topic of the PCB was never responded to. Funny enough, this was a while after the Mushi Futari 360 port came out. So from our memories of the Japanese version of the PCB and the recent 360 port, we compared things to the international version.

Because we didn't have the Japanese PCB at the time, we made small comparisons with the 360 port. We weren't finding much difference at all, except for two things: 1) You couldn't "stream" gems from the first boss's head in between his life brackets. 2) Bosses in original mode had slightly less health - my hypothesis was approximately 20%. Using science (control of variables is playing on Original with Reco, ONLY using laser, no bombs, which is why I die like an idiot on the 360 sometimes), I posted these on my YouTube channel on Cave-STG, and EOJ put it up as news on the front page.
Xbox360 Stage 1 Boss vs International Version Stage 1 Boss
Xbox360 Stage 2 Boss vs International Version Stage 2 Boss
Xbox360 Stage 4 Boss vs International Version Stage 4 Boss

For a while, that was basically all we had for information. The internet (okay, maybe like, 2 people) clamored for more. Well, now I have a Japanese MFBL PCB. So Alex brought over his Another Version yesterday, and the two of us, with the help of shmups members Jeneki and Aquas (because Kiel was still working and Poodude's in Portugal), did some science!

For all pictures and video, the International "Another" version is on the left in the New Astro City, and the Japanese version is on the right in the Egret 2.
Pictures:
Boot-up screen



Legal Screen



Title Screen - Notice how the International version has cool colors for the little forest spirit things, and the Japanese has warm colors. The International version also has the "Another Ver." underneath the logo.




Now the comparison between the Japanese PCB and International PCB. Again, Original mode, Reco, only using laser, no bombs.
Japanese Version Stage 1 Boss vs International Version Stage 1 Boss
Japanese Version Stage 2 Boss vs International Version Stage 2 Boss

For a little more science, Alex and Aquas had a Maniac Mode face-off on the Stage 1 Boss.
International vs. Japanese Stage 1 Boss Maniac
What do you notice? Here's what we noticed.
1) Health is exactly the same on Maniac mode for the boss(es).
2) Bullet patterns are slightly different. Maybe they are programmed differently? For example look at the pink Pac-Man Ghost shaped bullets at 0:10. On the International version, there are about 4 bullets per "wave" but in the Japanese version there are 6-8, making it a much smaller gap between bullets.


Other things we've noticed playing these two boards:
1) God mode seems to be identical in patterns and in health. We haven't done much video of this because one run of God mode is not very similar to the next, even for the same player. Sometimes things go very very wrong. Sorry, I'm not Clover-TAC.
2) Changing the difficulty level in the test menu seems to do absolutely nothing at all. So it's not like upping the difficulty on the International version really changes anything.
3) Backgrounds are all the same, enemy sprites and patterns are the same. One thing I had thought when I saw the title screen was that maybe the little sparkle-trails behind enemies would appear differently because the difference of colors on the title screen, but they are the exact same. So it doesn't appear that any art assets were changed within the game between the two versions.

Aquas or Jeneki may pop in here and give their thoughts as well.

I still have both boards in the cabs right now since Alex was kind enough to let me borrow them. If you have any questions of things I should check out, please let me know and I'll do what I can! I'll probably enlist the help of Aquas for some of it... The guy's a beast...

[AntiFritz]

I still find it strange that it was called the "international" version but they didn't translate the game endings or title screen. But then I remember reading on cave-stg that it was distributed mostly in hong kong or something?

[ookitarepanda]

You're right! I should have mentioned - the endings are still in Japanese.

My friend's International Version was bought from a Hong Kong distributor, but that's all I know about where these games were sold.

[brentsg]

The story at that time was that stock of the Japanese kits were returned fromm HK to Cave to be flashed to a new version.

The whole thing was crazy, but interesting.

[Aquas]

My impression based on our observations, specifically because Another version Stage 1 maniac boss having one bullet wave being sparse compared to BL Vanilla, and because the health seems to be a tad lesser on bosses (at least in original)...

...is that a only a few tweaks were made with the bosses in the various modes.

So perhaps the "Another version" implies it's "just another version" and it's not too particularly different.

We thought that maybe the pattern that was sparse in Maniac mode stage 1 boss could be because of RNG or because I (in vanilla BL) came into the boss with a higher counter(my 8000 compared to 4000) but none of us know the game well enough to confirm that.

If the lesser health and altered patterns (to be easier) are to be trusted in implication, perhaps the other tweaks on bosses are made to be slightly easier (or less cheap deaths).

I did end up getting a good run in the Another Version Original mode (Lx4 or Lx3 ALL w/ 720M), where 560M was my best on BL vanilla that day. But that's just anecdotal.

[brentsg]

Could someone like trap15 detect the differences by examining the dumped ROMs?

[trap15]

Probably not. As I said in another thread, CV1000 games are stored quite... strangely... on the ROMs. Even examining the code after loading/decompression might not be all that helpful, considering everything will be moved around and considerably different at a glance. It'd take some serious work to actually find the real differences.

[Cagar]

Very interesting... I wonder why cave has barely ANY information about all of the versions and revisions of the PCBs that they have produced.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Brent, can you check yours because I seem to remember there was another one that was 2009/11/17 and also it seems like there was an actual graphic for "Another Ver" on the title screen, not just text. Also nobody is going to be able to compare the code because no international version is dumped. It would make sense this was made for China because they like their shooting games easier than Japan does. Thus Tamashii defaulting to Easy in the operator settings, even on top of the new Easy Mode.

[brentsg]

Yeah I'll pop it in soon and see. I might even have a screenshot around here someplace already.

I also have the "vanilla" BL kit but since I only have 1 vert cab it's difficult to make a legit comparison.

[Pretas]

Also nobody is going to be able to compare the code because no international version is dumped. It would make sense this was made for China because they like their shooting games easier than Japan does. Thus Tamashii defaulting to Easy in the operator settings, even on top of the new Easy Mode.

That would explain just about everything in Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I didn't find it that easy to clear if you include beating the TLB. It seems easy, deceptively, but actually getting a 1CC with TLB is a different story. Well, unlike Cave games it depends mostly on how quickly you can pick up on Psikyo style boss memorization. If you are good at that then you will clear it very quickly.

[Pretas]

It goes deeper than that. Bee Storm has no bee multipliers, no Maximum bonus, no combo breaking, less complex patterns, forces you to choose one type of bomb, and Energy mode essentially gives you unlimited bombs with some risk.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

But is it fun? Fun shooting games aren't written on paper.

[Zerst]

DDP2 is a fun game.

[ookitarepanda]

China because they like their shooting games easier than Japan does. Thus Tamashii defaulting to Easy in the operator settings, even on top of the new Easy Mode.

Tell that to the Donpachi Hong Kong version which is insanely difficult compared to the Japanese version.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

More wizardry. And I see now your spell casting has reached the far hills of Edabay. The dwarf king surely won't stand for it.

[brentsg]

Brent, can you check yours because I seem to remember there was another one that was 2009/11/17 and also it seems like there was an actual graphic for "Another Ver" on the title screen, not just text. Also nobody is going to be able to compare the code because no international version is dumped. It would make sense this was made for China because they like their shooting games easier than Japan does. Thus Tamashii defaulting to Easy in the operator settings, even on top of the new Easy Mode.

I had forgotten about this. I did ultimately check mine, and both the revision and title screen are exactly the same as OP. It is also dumped now, if some ambitious person wanted to qualify and quantify the differences (or attempt to).

For what it's wothh, the PCB is labeled as MFBA-7000x.

[nesrulz]

Btw, this version (International) now works in MAME, as the primary BL version.

Someone is doing a new MAME test?

[system11]

Btw, this version (International) now works in MAME, as the primary BL version.

Someone is doing a new MAME test?

MAME is so messed up in situations like this. The primary BL version should be Japanese, and it's going to cause confusion.

[nesrulz]

Yes. I agree.

[Despatche]

another ver is primary because mame has this weird obsession with "world" versions as well as the absolute latest version available (regardless of anything approaching reason) and another ver qualifies for both

[brokenhalo]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... &start=180

I added in a separate scoreboard for Another Version in the futari thread. Figure I'll keep everything separate until we get some more testing done between the two boards.

Maybe at some point someone with both boards can get them hooked up to a single joystick and test that way. Unless rng wrecks it, but i don't think there's much of it in futari. Or how about running an .inp in MAME? would that be doable between the two versions?

[system11]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... &start=180

I added in a separate scoreboard for Another Version in the futari thread. Figure I'll keep everything separate until we get some more testing done between the two boards.

Maybe at some point someone with both boards can get them hooked up to a single joystick and test that way. Unless rng wrecks it, but i don't think there's much of it in futari. Or how about running an .inp in MAME? would that be doable between the two versions?

Yeah they nerfed the bosses - I just fed a BL (AV) input file I quickly made to BL normal, and you can see they were frame for frame identical right up until the boss.

Didn't last long enough to see too many differences but immediately it drops out of sync and you can see the pattern density is lower on AV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZJJukyRPWo

Youtube seems to utterly hate this video, something about my odd resolution is making it throw a fit and I cant to scale it up just to get 480P to appear.

[Skykid]

China because they like their shooting games easier than Japan does. Thus Tamashii defaulting to Easy in the operator settings, even on top of the new Easy Mode.

Tell that to the Donpachi Hong Kong version which is insanely difficult compared to the Japanese version.

Or the local arcade operator who keeps setting DOJ WL to hard.

[nesrulz]

Futari BL Vs. BL AV: https://youtu.be/9ZJJukyRPWo

[Dave_K.]

Yeah they nerfed the bosses - I just fed a BL (AV) input file I quickly made to BL normal, and you can see they were frame for frame identical right up until the boss.

Great to get this confirmed (without having to wire up two PCBs to same controls). Care to try the other modes?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Great to get this confirmed (without having to wire up two PCBs to same controls). Care to try the other modes?

Yeah, the changes to boss health in Original are pretty apparent on a playthrough. They're not super different, but it's still jarring to think there's a bastardized, inexplicably easier version of Futari BL (the bosses already die super fast compared to 1.5).

As much as it pains me to play an awful, bastardized version, I took Maniac for a quick spin in the Japanese version. The input is completely in sync when played back, but if you try to use the input in International, it desyncs at the stage 1 boss before the end of its first phase, indicating that the bosses in Maniac have likely had some pattern tweaks. I'm going to do a few Maniac/God runs in BL Shitty Ver. to see if I can notice exactly what has changed.

Holy crap, the stage 1 boss has WAY less health. Also looks like the attacks might be a bit slower and less dense. First phase dies before managing to jump and use the fireball attack, and I killed the second phase with Reco before it fired any bullets. Was just using the Laser, didn't use her special pointblank Shot or anything (which I think is weaker than the Laser in BL anyways).

Oh my god the Maniac bosses are SO MUCH EASIER. I am taking screenshots for comparison, the patterns have been nerfed to hell. As far as I can tell the stages and midbosses are the same. I'm not sure if the easier boss difficulty is a result of the shot types being boosted themselves (they feel about the same during stages), but I'm pretty sure I'm seeing tweaks to the boss patterns.

Stage 1 Boss: Way less health.

Stage 2 Boss. Slightly less health on first phase, much less dense patterns:



It fires this style attack with increasing density, this is the third and last burst. It's much easier to dodge through, not sure if rank exists now though and I wasn't exactly trying hard in the stages.

Also has a lot less health on the last two phases. If you don't hold back you'll kill it long before it uses its attacks that are crucial for scoring.

Stage 3 Boss: First couple of patterns have noticeably less health, last pattern doesn't seem to be tweaked as much if at all.

Stage 4 Boss: First phase ends one attack quicker, the other patterns aren't quite as nerfed.

Stage 5 Boss: You guessed it, Larsa dies quicker. I ended the first and second phases each without seeing the attack you normally would on phase death, and that's without using any bombs. One really major change I didn't catch until I watched an old BL run for comparison - the third phase's first attack has much smaller bullets now! I didn't notice it at the time so I didn't screenshot it. EDIT: nope it's probably just me not being used to the original arcade graphics, the bullets look similar in size, screenshots below. Running through again for a screencap of this. Even without bombing, she died right as she was lowering back down from the tail attacks.

[pestro87]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... &start=180

I added in a separate scoreboard for Another Version in the futari thread. Figure I'll keep everything separate until we get some more testing done between the two boards.

Maybe at some point someone with both boards can get them hooked up to a single joystick and test that way. Unless rng wrecks it, but i don't think there's much of it in futari. Or how about running an .inp in MAME? would that be doable between the two versions?

Yeah they nerfed the bosses - I just fed a BL (AV) input file I quickly made to BL normal, and you can see they were frame for frame identical right up until the boss.

Didn't last long enough to see too many differences but immediately it drops out of sync and you can see the pattern density is lower on AV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZJJukyRPWo

Youtube seems to utterly hate this video, something about my odd resolution is making it throw a fit and I cant to scale it up just to get 480P to appear.

Many thanks for this! Judging from the video, it doesn't look like the boss health has been nerfed but rather that the pattern started a bit later. In the images below you can see that the health is almost identical in Timestamp 1 but the pattern on left image doesn't come out until the comparison on Timestamp 2. The patterns do look less dense on AV however.

Timestamp 1 (identical health, pattern started a bit earlier on BL, doesn't come out until Timestamp 2 in AV)


Timestamp 2 (health is less in BLAV because of death caused by desync in BL, pattern on BL in Timestamp 1 can now be seen in BLAV, the pattern is less dense in BLAV)


Looking forward to getting the PCB. I'm curious if they changed anything else, especially on God Mode. I wouldn't mind if they made the TLB requirements a bit more lenient tbh or perhaps slightly nerfed a few of Larsa's patterns so that it's not mandatory to drop at least like 3 bombs on Larsa...

EDIT:

Stage 5 Boss: You guessed it, Larsa dies quicker. I ended the first and second phases each without seeing the attack you normally would on phase death, and that's without using any bombs. One really major change I didn't catch until I watched an old BL run for comparison - the third phase's first attack has much smaller bullets now! I didn't notice it at the time so I didn't screenshot it. Running through again for a screencap of this. Even without bombing, she died right as she was lowering back down from the tail attacks.

Sweeet!!! If it's the same on God Mode, then it'll be easier to practice Spiritual Larsa on AV I've been able to NM up until Larsa but never made it past Larsa without a miss on God Mode if I had been playing for score up until that point...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Okay, went back and played AV Maniac with Palm to remove rank as a factor. Was too busy scrutinizing the bullets to 1CC, but I gameovered at Larsa'a third phase so rank isn't likely a factor. I don't think the bullets in the third phase were made smaller, I think it's just I'm used to the higher res version in the Xbox 360 port. Anyways, here's some screenies of Larsa in Maniac:



Palm seems to be the same shot strength as before during stages, so it looks like boss health was the main tweak. God Mode is very likely the same idea: bosses are made easier, everything else is the same. They may have done something interesting like turn Spiritual Larsa's requirements down to a 1CC regardless of deaths, but I'm not good enough at God Mode to 1CC it yet and I'm sick of playing this shit. The game really didn't need a version with boss tweaks as the difficulty in BL was quite reasonable to begin with (which also means people who got this PCB can't compete with standard BL scores).

The real question is this: if you get a Shit Label Shitty Ver. PCB is a conversion possible to the proper Japanese Black Label?