It's over, CAVE is dead... or maybe not...

[ptoing]

You can not compare Toaplan folding and Cave killing off the arcade branch.

Toaplan folding left not many other options for those devs back then, and the arcade scene was vibrant.

Cave just not doing arcade stuff anymore does not mean Ikeda and the others are suddenly out of a job. They might just end up making other types of games inside Cave.

[Udderdude]

I think it's better to word it as "CAVE as we know it is dead" .. because they're clearly still around, but who knows if they'll be anything like they were before.

[dan76]

If the company carries on but the arcade division is dead - what's the point of the company. Who cares what they do now, their arcade games are the reason we give a shit. Well, it is for me anyhow.

I mean... I don't want them to be out of work or anything...

[Blattdorf]

PC shooting can just die if it means compromising itself with cancerous DRM like Steam.

I don't think doujin developers will ever sink that low though, thankfully.

Steam is DRM only when the publisher wants it to be, so your point is moot.

[geekmiki]

Restructuring departments into one can be helpful with creativity but that's one area they don't need help in. My prediction, new arcade shooter is announced by the end of January. I don't think using a pcb is out either. If they wanted to use discs and computers as their format they could have done it 10 years ago.

+1

Restructuring a company is very often done on paper... To reassure investors or worse to show that something's going on when out of ideas and/or projects. On a short to mid term basis it very often doesn't change ANYTHING: people will still do the same job (with a different title), work in the same way, keep doing what they know and are confortable with.

Makes me believe that Cave will still release shmups, mobile/social games and that they will still do business in the worst way possible, creating frustration among their fans.

[MathU]

PC shooting can just die if it means compromising itself with cancerous DRM like Steam.

I don't think doujin developers will ever sink that low though, thankfully.

Steam is DRM only when the publisher wants it to be, so your point is moot.

I'm well aware of that. That's essentially what you're asking for when you want Steam specifically as the distributor though.

[Blattdorf]

PC shooting can just die if it means compromising itself with cancerous DRM like Steam.

I don't think doujin developers will ever sink that low though, thankfully.

Steam is DRM only when the publisher wants it to be, so your point is moot.

I'm well aware of that. That's essentially what you're asking for when you want Steam specifically as the distributor though.

I never said they have to be exclusively on Steam. It's not like Cave can't sell their games on GoG or even sell DRM-free versions on their own website.

[RyIII]

If they aren't simply fatigued of the genre, they see it as a creaky relic of a bygone era of gaming that no one in their right mind would choose over the "immersive," "cinematic experiences" of an Elder Scrolls, Assassin's Creed, or Mass Effect. Ikaruga was the last STG that truly captured the attention and imaginations of the general gaming public, and its American release recently had its tenth anniversary. Companies exist to make profit, and when a source of revenue dries up you have to move on, even if it's to stupid tripe like mobage.

That's because Ikaruga got huge advance press from all sorts of traditional and non-traditional gaming news outlets and was made by a known developer with a long track record of success in other genres and platforms, not a developer whose greatest efforts were bound to an institution that, for a great many people, no longer effectively exists. Hell, even out of all of the arcades I've visited in the past ten years, only one of them even carried a single shmup cabinet (Raiden Fighters, for those keeping score), and pretty much all of them have closed down by now.

(And despite all the outward buzz, Ikaruga still only actually sold about as well as Gradius V in the US, anyways.)

And frankly, pure shmups would be a hard sell even under more favorable circumstances, because we're just plain not all that good at selling the genre in its current form in the first place.

[MathU]

It's not like Cave can't sell their games on GoG or even sell DRM-free versions on their own website.

Then why not wish for that? Why would you want Steam?

[brentsg]

It's not like Cave can't sell their games on GoG or even sell DRM-free versions on their own website.

Then why not wish for that? Why would you want Steam?

I'll bite on that I guess. I really like Steam and don't mind the DRM.

They've stated that if they want to shut down the service at some point, that they remove the online check. Sure, they may decide not to but I don't view it as a high risk. The service is convenient. My kids can hop on from their computer and readily DL/play a game.

Shrug.. I don't really see a downside. It's a nice central repository for games that I buy VERY cheap, kind of a 1-stop shop. I wouldn't want to keep track of accounts via various publishers, downloads, patches, etc.

Personally I'm a lot more comfortable with that service than I am my digital downloads from Xbox Live, PSN, or the Nintendo store (though that's not saying much).

[CloudyMusic]

I'm always opposed to DRM that significantly inconveniences me and/or greatly complicates the process of playing my legally-purchased games.

Lots of DRM fits that description. I don't feel that Steam does, however. Plus, I like that makes game updates seamless, makes leaderboards/friends tracking simpler, and allows me not to worry about downloading a bunch of installers and manually installing all of my games on multiple computers, keeping them all updated, etc.

[hamfighterx]

Shit, why was Cave even targeting smartphones for shmups? Don't you need to focus a little on the game when you're playing? If I was riding a train or something and looking to kill time, shmups are the last thing I'd like to play. At home, yeah, but then I have the PC, so why I would stare at the phone all day?

Fairly painless process to release your games on the platform (as opposed to consoles), and at least iOS appears to be fairly profitable.

Also, don't forget that "mobile" doesn't mean phone only. Tablets are actually pretty good for verts. Hardware is up to the task, correct aspect ratio, and reasonable screen size makes for a pretty good experience. I'll take a monitor and proper stick any day, but playing Cave's iPad releases is really not bad.

[EmperorIng]

Japanese developers in general have this strange cultural aversion towards the PC - the PC has always been a completely niche area in Japan, and nothing like the diverse market that has always been prevalent in the West.

It's strange, because PC could probably be an extremely viable platform for shmups, since it already sort of is.

[Skykid]

Restructuring departments into one can be helpful with creativity but that's one area they don't need help in. My prediction, new arcade shooter is announced by the end of January. I don't think using a pcb is out either. If they wanted to use discs and computers as their format they could have done it 10 years ago.

I disagree. I love Cave's games but all their releases are incredibly similar. I'd be happy if they'd let Yagawa make Yagawa-style STGs at least. But imo they really should try to get away from their core mechanics a bit.

I don't honestly think they need to get away from their core mechanics, since they're generally so robust as to make for a great experience time after time (apart from Deathsmiles). What you're seeing is Ikeda: he's the author, it's his style. Like any artist, Cave games are all him, it's what he does best. I do agree in diversifying the style however, and I'd love to see some new developers brought into the fold to spice things up - a collaboration with Ikeda would probably be excellent. As for Yagawa, love his madness as I do, I agree with Spork: from a business standpoint, he just doesn't work. Frankly, Cave managed to carve a niche style that could make money, whereas Yagawa's games generally only appealed to the old hardcore guard and no-one else. That's not going to help increase revenue.

I'd really like to see shmups becoming more prominent on the PC.

No.

Stop talking about PC's please.

[pochacco]

tablets are definitely a viable option for the future of shmups. definitely have a lot of fun with the CAVE ports as well as this one really well-made one callled danmaku unlimited 2.

Japanese developers in general have this strange cultural aversion towards the PC - the PC has always been a completely niche area in Japan, and nothing like the diverse market that has always been prevalent in the West.

It's strange, because PC could probably be an extremely viable platform for shmups, since it already sort of is.

wasn't the 360 not too popular in japan too? yet cave threw most of its ports and releases on the platform over say the ps3. shouldn't count out PC, plus i'm sure at least CAVE has been hearing the demand people have for PC releases, especially with the success of games like Jamestown and the Touhou series... maybe the big reason they released ports for 360 (alongside a few new titles) is because of MAME

[O. Van Bruce]

Can you See Banquo's Ghost shmup's farm? He may be dead now but his line will be that of kings

[BIL]

Especially if it's JAPANESE BANQUO'S GHOST the forum is seeing. (that's shmups forum on the left)



(SPOILERS FOR MACBETH)

[jasoncslaughter]

I may be wrong about this, but it seems to me that the reason the "CAVE is dead" thread keeps reappearing is that in some way we all kind of want it to be true (hear me out!). I have a considerable fondness for quite a few CAVE titles and would love to see another Mushihimesama or Ketsui, but something else entirely would be much more exciting in my opinion.

The death of CAVE (or at least the arcade division) would allow us to have our cake and eat it too: CAVE would be added to the list of immortalized shmup developers (e.g. Toaplan, Raizing - and I think Saidaioujou would be a great way to go out), and we would get all-new shmups from whatever company forms from the developers who will continue on. Just a thought.

Also, I have to go with Skykid (if he is being serious - sometimes it is hard to tell ) on the PC platform: no thanks.

[1up]

Do you think Ikeda and the gang would settle for mainstream card games? From what I can understand, from translated interviews, they live and breathe for the hardcore shooters, so I think it will be a possibility that they will start on their own. Taitoaplan is a reality.

[Never_Scurred]

I'm all for Cave going PC (non-Steam) as it increases the possibility of me being able to acquire and play them for free.

[theclaw]

Restructuring departments into one can be helpful with creativity but that's one area they don't need help in. My prediction, new arcade shooter is announced by the end of January. I don't think using a pcb is out either. If they wanted to use discs and computers as their format they could have done it 10 years ago.

I disagree. I love Cave's games but all their releases are incredibly similar. I'd be happy if they'd let Yagawa make Yagawa-style STGs at least. But imo they really should try to get away from their core mechanics a bit.

I don't honestly think they need to get away from their core mechanics, since they're generally so robust as to make for a great experience time after time (apart from Deathsmiles). What you're seeing is Ikeda: he's the author, it's his style. Like any artist, Cave games are all him, it's what he does best. I do agree in diversifying the style however, and I'd love to see some new developers brought into the fold to spice things up - a collaboration with Ikeda would probably be excellent. As for Yagawa, love his madness as I do, I agree with Spork: from a business standpoint, he just doesn't work. Frankly, Cave managed to carve a niche style that could make money, whereas Yagawa's games generally only appealed to the old hardcore guard and no-one else. That's not going to help increase revenue.

I'd really like to see shmups becoming more prominent on the PC.

No.

Stop talking about PC's please.

What could be better? Controls beat mobile, availability beats arcades, publishing ease beats consoles.

It's not like anyone half sane would EVER install a Cave cab in Freeland WA.

[Ed Oscuro]

I close my eyes and five pages of this. Japanese Banquo's Ghost has been very active tonight.

[scrilla4rella]

There's Crimzon Clover... put them on Steam and show people what real shmups are made of.

Yotsubane got the JPN text localized into ENG and submitted it to Steam but it was rejected. Blame the fact that CC is not on Steam on Valve

[O. Van Bruce]

There's Crimzon Clover... put them on Steam and show people what real shmups are made of.

Yotsubane got the JPN text localized into ENG and submitted it to Steam but it was rejected. Blame the fact that CC is not on Steam on Valve

Can't believe it. Even so, there is steam greenlight so it may be able to be published on steam if it gets enough support, right?

[scrilla4rella]

There's Crimzon Clover... put them on Steam and show people what real shmups are made of.

Yotsubane got the JPN text localized into ENG and submitted it to Steam but it was rejected. Blame the fact that CC is not on Steam on Valve

Can't believe it. Even so, there is steam greenlight so it may be able to be published on steam if it gets enough support, right?

true, this was before greenlight. It might have a chance now if it gets the community support

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

They aren't going to be guaranteed to find another outlet for making shooting games if Cave dies. You are living in a dream world if you think that. Just because something happened in the past when a company went under doesn't mean history is going to keep repeating itself. Ikeda would have thrown in the towel on arcade games completely if DDP wasn't a hit in 1997 and he's no longer a young spark dying to start a shooting game company.

[Skykid]

Also, I have to go with Skykid (if he is being serious - sometimes it is hard to tell ) on the PC platform: no thanks.

Always serious. Fuck PC's.

tablets are definitely a viable option for the future of shmups.

Hey hey HEY!

What's with all this blaspheming? Tablets a viable option for the future of shmups?

Where do you guys come from? I don't roll up into racing game forums and tell them the future of their beloved genre is steering with a pair of maracas.

[kathy]

wanna race?

[pestro87]

Taitoaplan is a reality.

The Raizing of the Taitoaplan Cave. I would love to see that!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Where do you guys come from? I don't roll up into racing game forums and tell them the future of their beloved genre is steering with a pair of maracas.

It'd still be better than playing with the Kinect would be.

Tablets wouldn't suck if you could hook up an arcade stick and actually play them with with buttons. Bombing/hypering/kakuseing by trying to press one of the onscreen buttons and hoping it responds instead of moving your ship to the edge of the screen (this actually happens rarely, at least in the Futari iOS port) or simply not registering.