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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:14 pm 



Joined: 15 Feb 2012
Posts: 1495
About the only 1cc that didn't take me long was Deathsmiles, which I got on my 5th credit.

IN Normal took me about 30 hours. According to the in-game timer, I spent about 60 hours with Crimzon Clover before giving up (couldn't beat the TLB, even in practice mode with 9 lives). I have no idea how many hours I've spent with DOJBL, but I'm sure the answer is "many"- probably even more than Crimzon Clover.

Yeah, I'm pretty much completely untalented.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:32 pm 



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Hello. I have been reading these posts and I am sorry if I upset someone. I did not think my Ketsui clear would get so much attention... Please do not feel bad if you can not clear in the same time. Try to not compare yourself too much with others. Just do your best and try until you also win! I feel sad to see players like DrTrouserPlank and Obscura give up so close to their goals with Futari and Crimzon Clover because they do not clear as fast as others. You should try again! If you are that close you can definitely do it (✖◠‿◠)! Watch replays for strategy for places you have trouble. You will learn a lot of things you might not have thought of trying.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:27 pm 


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DrTrouserPlank wrote:
TheSyllogist wrote:
I'm sure if I was playing on a pcb it would have taken a couple hours more. But I have the resource, so I'm gonna take advantage of it.


Without being able to practice stages these games would never be cleared unless you literally dedicated your life to doing so. Having to repeatedly play 15 minutes of stages so that you could get a fleeting glance at the stage that keeps killing you would result in the clear times increasingly massively, probably by a factor of at least 20.



I see what you're saying, but I disagree. The bulk of my hours were in my score attack. Me personally, I really focus on what's happening when I'm playing and the practice modes are there for me to be creative on ways to dodge attacks without worrying about my score. Focusing on survival only, I think I made it to stage 3 on my first attempt. A few more credits after that, to stage 4. Eventually I wondered why I wasn't receiving the 2nd extend, and realized that I needed to start paying attention to ways to score.

I think a lot of my deaths resulted from worrying too much about score and losing lives without bombing. However, "a fleeting glance at the stage that keeps killing me" may be 2-5 patterns of the stage. And even if I die at one point, it isn't always game over and I can see the rest of the stage. This isn't ultra where almost every pattern kills me right now. That will take hours and hours to get through.

Going for the 1CCs is really all about paying attention and deliberate practice. This doesn't always have to be in practice mode either. If I die twice or more at one pattern, I may try a different way to dodge it on the third run. If it isn't going to work, I'll just bomb, and try again next time.

My score attacks weren't just mindless runs. I'm constantly adjusting in game, and I believe this is where most of my improvement has come (and as expected, where most of my hours was played).

Clearing a game fast requires an intensity of focus that many players might find unenjoyable. And to each his own really. I hope one day beat a world record, so learning to focus like I mentioned is a necessity for me. But there those who just want to relax and play shmups as a de-stresser, and for fun. My fun comes at the end however, when I accomplish my goal. It's a great satisfaction that makes up for frustration and stress of scoring well and going for difficult 1CCs.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:54 pm 


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Welcome2SpecialRound wrote:
Hello. I have been reading these posts and I am sorry if I upset someone. I did not think my Ketsui clear would get so much attention... Please do not feel bad if you can not clear in the same time. Try to not compare yourself too much with others. Just do your best and try until you also win! I feel sad to see players like DrTrouserPlank and Obscura give up so close to their goals with Futari and Crimzon Clover because they do not clear as fast as others. You should try again! If you are that close you can definitely do it (✖◠‿◠)! Watch replays for strategy for places you have trouble. You will learn a lot of things you might not have thought of trying.

I would be overjoyed if this became the default posting tone on shmups forum. If everybody on the internet talked like this, there would be a 1000% increase in worldwide self-actualization.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:57 pm 


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Special World wrote:
Welcome2SpecialRound wrote:
Hello. I have been reading these posts and I am sorry if I upset someone. I did not think my Ketsui clear would get so much attention... Please do not feel bad if you can not clear in the same time. Try to not compare yourself too much with others. Just do your best and try until you also win! I feel sad to see players like DrTrouserPlank and Obscura give up so close to their goals with Futari and Crimzon Clover because they do not clear as fast as others. You should try again! If you are that close you can definitely do it (✖◠‿◠)! Watch replays for strategy for places you have trouble. You will learn a lot of things you might not have thought of trying.

I would be overjoyed if this became the default posting tone on shmups forum. If everybody on the internet talked like this, there would be a 1000% increase in worldwide self-actualization.



True. That post was so nice I almost thought it was a new type of trolling.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:58 pm 



Joined: 15 Feb 2012
Posts: 1495
Welcome2SpecialRound wrote:
Hello. I have been reading these posts and I am sorry if I upset someone. I did not think my Ketsui clear would get so much attention... Please do not feel bad if you can not clear in the same time. Try to not compare yourself too much with others. Just do your best and try until you also win! I feel sad to see players like DrTrouserPlank and Obscura give up so close to their goals with Futari and Crimzon Clover because they do not clear as fast as others. You should try again! If you are that close you can definitely do it (✖◠‿◠)! Watch replays for strategy for places you have trouble. You will learn a lot of things you might not have thought of trying.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I can't beat Crimson Clover's TLB. Over 5 hours against that boss in practice mode yielded literally 0 successes; his spam-attacks rely 100% on eye-hand coordination to avoid, and I simply don't have enough of it.

It's the same problem I always run into; in DOJ, I know exactly which gaps I need to get through in a pattern, but my ship control isn't good enough and I always run into something. It's a good thing I don't own DOJ on a physical meduim, or I'd have thrown the board out the window by now. I had one run that should have been a clear; I made it to the 1-5 boss with three extra lives... and then I choked, didn't hit the bomb button a single time, and failed. Months of play later, and I never got another run like that.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:12 am 


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Location: On an alternate dimension... filled with bullets and moon runes...
A good way to practice hand coordination is playing some versus shmups.

Get Phantasmagoria of Flower View or Phantasmagoria of Dimensional Dream, set then on Lunatic or at least hard and prepare to do some dodges.

The complete randoness of those games will train your reflexes as well as prepare you for unexpected situations that deviate from your planned route.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:40 am 



Joined: 24 Apr 2010
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doing


Last edited by hail good sir on Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:33 am 



Joined: 15 Feb 2012
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hail good sir wrote:
Also make sure you're 100% comfortable with whatever input device you're using, I know I've had problems on the PC in the past, everything was like 85% good enough but not quite enough to really have the confidence to make truly accurate movements. Then I got a saturn pad recently.

I kinda wonder if this is part of the issue. I tried dicking around on a pad tonight, and generally my small tap-dodges seemed a lot more precise and sure.

Big movements were utter crap, though (I kept getting diagonals I didn't want, or didn't get diagonals I did want), and so was the "button pressing". Only got one credit out of many even to stage 5; lots of "3 miss stage 2" kinda crap. It's definitely going to take some adjusting to...


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:16 am 


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I'm pretty new to playing shmups in a serious manner. I've always enjoyed the art style and just bomb-spammed through games. So far I can only claim a single 1cc which was Dodonpachi DFK. Probably took around 8 hours but I could tell that game is ridiculously easy for a shmup. Since then i've been trying for a Dodonpachi 1cc. I'd say i've put in ~25 hours and i'm pretty close at this point. I've played little bits of dozens of other shmups during this time though just to see what I like. I don't think that's helping. If I knuckle down and concentrate on DDP, play every day etc - I think it'll fall in the next 10 hours. It bloody better.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:55 pm 


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Special World wrote:
Welcome2SpecialRound wrote:
Hello. I have been reading these posts and I am sorry if I upset someone. I did not think my Ketsui clear would get so much attention... Please do not feel bad if you can not clear in the same time. Try to not compare yourself too much with others. Just do your best and try until you also win! I feel sad to see players like DrTrouserPlank and Obscura give up so close to their goals with Futari and Crimzon Clover because they do not clear as fast as others. You should try again! If you are that close you can definitely do it (✖◠‿◠)! Watch replays for strategy for places you have trouble. You will learn a lot of things you might not have thought of trying.

I would be overjoyed if this became the default posting tone on shmups forum. If everybody on the internet talked like this, there would be a 1000% increase in worldwide self-actualization.


Fuck that shit.

DrTrouserPlank wrote:
TheSyllogist wrote:
I'm sure if I was playing on a pcb it would have taken a couple hours more. But I have the resource, so I'm gonna take advantage of it.


Without being able to practice stages these games would never be cleared unless you literally dedicated your life to doing so. Having to repeatedly play 15 minutes of stages so that you could get a fleeting glance at the stage that keeps killing you would result in the clear times increasingly massively, probably by a factor of at least 20.


Never used a practice mode in my life.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:03 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
Never used a practice mode in my life.


Why not?


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:49 am 



Joined: 15 Feb 2012
Posts: 1495
Obscura wrote:
hail good sir wrote:
Also make sure you're 100% comfortable with whatever input device you're using, I know I've had problems on the PC in the past, everything was like 85% good enough but not quite enough to really have the confidence to make truly accurate movements. Then I got a saturn pad recently.

I kinda wonder if this is part of the issue. I tried dicking around on a pad tonight, and generally my small tap-dodges seemed a lot more precise and sure.

Big movements were utter crap, though (I kept getting diagonals I didn't want, or didn't get diagonals I did want), and so was the "button pressing". Only got one credit out of many even to stage 5; lots of "3 miss stage 2" kinda crap. It's definitely going to take some adjusting to...

And, nevermind; I'm right back exactly where I was, knowing how to fly through patterns, but not being able to do it consistently enough.

I must say, this thread has pretty much proven my hypothesis that natural skill is everything correct. Either you get clears in about 10 hours or so, or you bang your head against a wall forever and simply can't do it.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:26 am 


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Obscura wrote:
I must say, this thread has pretty much proven my hypothesis that natural skill is everything correct. Either you get clears in about 10 hours or so, or you bang your head against a wall forever and simply can't do it.


It's not quite so simple. I've personally played quite a lot of first person shooters before getting into shmups and I have pretty decent reflexes because of it. You might call it "natural skill", but it really isn't and I've actually got slower reflexes than most other fps players I compared with, but comparing to any non-gamer, I have a huge advantage in that front. While it isn't all that useful in bullet hell games, it is still somewhat useful in most shmups. Likewise someone with a fighting game background might have superior control with a stick (or pad). Getting 1cc's also really depend on your goals and playing style. 1cc at any cost is a lot easier than when you are trying to score even a little. My first Cave 1cc was Deathsmiles with 174M on the lowest scoring character (when looking at world records) and that was enough to place me in top 30 (out of 130, out of which ~100 are ALL) in the forum high score table. I like playing for score, even if my score is pitiful and if even that causes me to not clear the game. I could 1cc the first loop of DDP:Dfk with a bit effort, but what would be the point of that? Spamming hypers and bombs while getting a lower score than what you can get in stage 1?

EDIT:
Just to prove my point I just 1cc'd ddp:dfk using B-strong with an amazing score of 1,701,961,453, which is 600M less than my previous best and less than half of what you can get in stage 1 with the same ship type. This was my 5th attempt and like some others in this thread, I'm not counting any runs I made more than half a year ago... I think this is the second game I've 1cc'd that was originally made for arcades, but I really don't think it's worth anything really.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:01 am 


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DrInfy wrote:
Just to prove my point I just 1cc'd ddp:dfk using B-strong with an amazing score of 1,701,961,453, which is 600M less than my previous best and less than half of what you can get in stage 1 with the same ship type. This was my 5th attempt and like some others in this thread, I'm not counting any runs I made more than half a year ago... I think this is the second game I've 1cc'd that was originally made for arcades, but I really don't think it's worth anything really.


Strong style in DFK 1.5 isn't available on the arcade PCB on defaults afaik. Not that it's hard to 1-all with the other styles but a lot of people seem to forget this.

Tired of this natural skill argument. Personally I've improved a lot in shmups over the years and am better than before by a large margin, obviously my genes haven't changed. Learning to practice more efficiently works too if you want to save time. If you feel you have bad reflexes or pattern recognition for say a hard cave game, try other kinds of shmups for a change, like more classic style shmups with more tactical weapon usage and simple memorization. Chances are over time you'll be better at where you started from.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:18 am 


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Zaarock wrote:
Strong style in DFK 1.5 isn't available on the arcade PCB on defaults afaik. Not that it's hard to 1-all with the other styles but a lot of people seem to forget this.


I didn't forget as I never knew that. The arcade world records are available for strong types and the superplay videos include them, so I guess they're just an unlock? Rosa was an unlock for Deathsmiles too and I haven't seen people complain about 1cc'ing it with her. :p Not that it matters though as I'm not really keeping count of my "epic" 1cc achievements. What matters is if you're having fun while playing and/or feeling good when achieving your goals, whatever they may be.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:17 pm 


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Zaarock wrote:
Tired of this natural skill argument. Personally I've improved a lot in shmups over the years and am better than before by a large margin, obviously my genes haven't changed. Learning to practice more efficiently works too if you want to save time. If you feel you have bad reflexes or pattern recognition for say a hard cave game, try other kinds of shmups for a change, like more classic style shmups with more tactical weapon usage and simple memorization. Chances are over time you'll be better at where you started from.

This.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:35 pm 



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Zaarock wrote:
DrInfy wrote:
Just to prove my point I just 1cc'd ddp:dfk using B-strong with an amazing score of 1,701,961,453, which is 600M less than my previous best and less than half of what you can get in stage 1 with the same ship type. This was my 5th attempt and like some others in this thread, I'm not counting any runs I made more than half a year ago... I think this is the second game I've 1cc'd that was originally made for arcades, but I really don't think it's worth anything really.


Strong style in DFK 1.5 isn't available on the arcade PCB on defaults afaik. Not that it's hard to 1-all with the other styles but a lot of people seem to forget this.

Tired of this natural skill argument. Personally I've improved a lot in shmups over the years and am better than before by a large margin, obviously my genes haven't changed. Learning to practice more efficiently works too if you want to save time. If you feel you have bad reflexes or pattern recognition for say a hard cave game, try other kinds of shmups for a change, like more classic style shmups with more tactical weapon usage and simple memorization. Chances are over time you'll be better at where you started from.

If natural talent isn't a massive deciding factor, why do we have people in this thread whose first 1cc was Ketsui, done in 8 hours? Why do we have someone who has "just started playing shmups seriously" who is almost done with a game that's roughly as hard as the one I'm playing, in literally about a quarter of the time?


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:39 pm 



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Obscura wrote:
If natural talent isn't a massive deciding factor, why do we have people in this thread whose first 1cc was Ketsui, done in 8 hours? Why do we have someone who has "just started playing shmups seriously" who is almost done with a game that's roughly as hard as the one I'm playing, in literally about a quarter of the time?


Shmups are not isolated from everything else. I'd imagine someone who has played plenty of other action games before will not have very hard time adopting shmups.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:40 pm 


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I have a question. How the fuck would humans develop a natural affinity for bullet hell shmups? Like, how would we evolve that way? Why would we evolve that way?
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:57 pm 


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Giest118 wrote:
I have a question. How the fuck would humans develop a natural affinity for bullet hell shmups? Like, how would we evolve that way? Why would we evolve that way?


It's not an ability to play these games, it's just about being able to track multiple projectiles, predict trajectories and concentrate. All three of which are skills that are learned and improved by practice and have virtually nothing to do with "natural talent"

"natural ability" is a massively overplayed and overused term on this forum. It's propagated (or at least not denied) by certain people who want to be viewed as gods on a forum read by about 20 people. Being good at shmups comes down to playing them loads in general (which will develop the three skills mentioned above) and (specific to a particular game) grinding the stages over and over until you have lost the will to live
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:20 pm 


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You made me lose the will to read your posts since you're such a broken record but i keep reading them because I hate myself

admins pls ban him

plsss let's work together to make this forum a nice place to be

let's try make sense, listen to each other, and learn from each other
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:26 pm 


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Giest118 wrote:
I have a question. How the fuck would humans develop a natural affinity for bullet hell shmups? Like, how would we evolve that way? Why would we evolve that way?


This is not how evolution necessarily works. Traits which get selected for propagate and thus can get more pronounced and spread. The ability to do calculus or other such things never directly got selected for, they are side-effects of evolution. So it could be possible that there are certain humans who have a naturally better hand-eye coordination (something which certainly would be beneficial in the savanna, hunting animals) So there might be some people who are naturally somewhat better at all things involving hand eye coordination. But I reckon it would be pretty small and training certainly still is the main factor.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:38 pm 


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chum wrote:
admins pls ban him

let's try make sense, listen to each other, and learn from each other


Interesting post progression.
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:47 pm 


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what's the point in posting on a forum if you're just gonna live in your own little bubble and ignore everything anyone else has to say

what shouldve happened is:

DTP posts dumb shit once
gets corrected
changes his ways

what happened instead is:

DTP posts dumb shit over 9000 times
gets corrected every so often
doesn't care or listen

my proposal: ban the troll
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:47 pm 


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So we can conclude most of us are hunters and Dr. Trouser Snake is a lowly gatherer. Trou make yourself useful and gather us up some fresh berries.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:05 pm 


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chum wrote:
what's the point in posting on a forum if you're just gonna live in your own little bubble and ignore everything anyone else has to say

what shouldve happened is:

DTP posts dumb shit once
gets corrected
changes his ways

what happened instead is:

DTP posts dumb shit over 9000 times
gets corrected every so often
doesn't care or listen

my proposal: ban the troll


Let's leave aside your moronic cries of "ban the troll" which are pathetic and childish and don't contribute much towards your supposed goal of "making this a nice place".... yeah, real nice

Funnily enough I appreciate being part of this forum more than most people here I'd say, but some people's intolerance of opinions that differ from their's is staggering really. That's what doesn't help to "make this a nice place".


Playing these games in a goal-orientated way drains all the fun from them, but ultimately there is no other way to play them. The problem for me, at least, is that if I'm playing towards a goal and not achieving it, then I'm not having fun. I might be enjoying the game all the time it's going well, but each death is a massive blight on the session and each subsequent death is another step back in achieving what I am aiming at, and frequently failing to achieve.

That's really the problem. You are trying to achieve something that for session upon session, hour upon hour you aren't achieving, and that's just no fun.

I'm not going through this all again though. It bores me to tears and I've been over it so many times. Unless what you are posting can be summarised by some stupid meme, no-one here is listening anyway.

Edit: looks down 1 post.... point proven -.-
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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:16 pm 



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DTP you ARE a massive troll though even if i do admit you're pretty good at it and have this act down to a tee.Im just surprised you have got away with it for so long.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:17 pm 



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Erppo wrote:
Obscura wrote:
If natural talent isn't a massive deciding factor, why do we have people in this thread whose first 1cc was Ketsui, done in 8 hours? Why do we have someone who has "just started playing shmups seriously" who is almost done with a game that's roughly as hard as the one I'm playing, in literally about a quarter of the time?


Shmups are not isolated from everything else. I'd imagine someone who has played plenty of other action games before will not have very hard time adopting shmups.

I've 1cc's tons of arcade platformers and run 'n guns (actually, that's what drove me to shmups in the first place- having 1cc'd a ridiculous number of arcade platformers, and basically running that well dry). I've played tons of FPSs, and have spent a lot of time with HR-style Doom wads.

Another theory disproven.


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 Post subject: Re: How long did it take you to get your 1 CC's?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:28 pm 


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DrTrouserPlank wrote:
chum wrote:
what's the point in posting on a forum if you're just gonna live in your own little bubble and ignore everything anyone else has to say

what shouldve happened is:

DTP posts dumb shit once
gets corrected
changes his ways

what happened instead is:

DTP posts dumb shit over 9000 times
gets corrected every so often
doesn't care or listen

my proposal: ban the troll


Let's leave aside your moronic cries of "ban the troll" which are pathetic and childish and don't contribute much towards your supposed goal of "making this a nice place".... yeah, real nice

Funnily enough I appreciate being part of this forum more than most people here I'd say, but some people's intolerance of opinions that differ from their's is staggering really. That's what doesn't help to "make this a nice place".

So that in future you can post with more information to hand I'll tell you what happened.

DTP started playing games and enjoyed them
DTP eventually tried to 1cc games and found them hard
DTP was advised to practice which he did
DTP made little progress and the time investment grew rapidly...
DTP stopped having fun as games turned into work
DTP posted genuine critique of games and methods to clear them and their shortcomings


DTP assumes everyone sucks as badly as he does

as this thread proves some people don't have to struggle to clear a game, because they're better than you. until you learn to understand that you suck and that you should blame yourself and not the game, i say ban the troll. because you are a troll. many other forums would have banned you by now for your trashy behaviour, belittling everyone else because of your own incompetence
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