Scoring system adventure

[KAI]

Maybe it's just me, but I thinks it's more fun to discover how a scoring system works than spoiling the experience by watching videos or reading strategies.

Anyone agree?

Serious discussion, no pics plz.

[AntiFritz]

While I wish that was the case for me, without guides I probably wouldn't even figure out half of most shmups scoring systems.

[Cagar]

While I wish that was the case for me, without guides I probably wouldn't even figure out half of most shmups scoring systems.

I think this is true for everyone.
Learn DFK 1.5 scoring without guides, you'd have to play a lot, just because of the stupid hidden multiplier.

[Necronopticous]

The only game I ever figured out entirely on my own was Raiden Fighters Jet. It was very fun, but extremely time consuming. That was years ago, though. I was in school, so I had all the time in the world. I wouldn't have the time or patience these days. I want RESULTS.

[Jeneki]

Depends on the game. If there's only one thing going on, sure, that's not too bad to figure out and find strategies on my own. I've been doing that with Sky Adventure since it's an older title nobody writes about but definitely has strategies to work out (and has a level results screen to taunt you to score better).

Secrets are always fun to stumble into on my own. Stuff like bomb medals in Garegga, miclus in Raiden Fighters, Milestone logos in Chaos Field, etc.

[ciox]

I sort of agree, I like to give a game a chance by playing it for a while without looking at guides of any kind. But I know I won't get too close to 100% on my own, so eventually...

Milestone logos in Chaos Field, etc)

Eh? I never saw these, not even in the VTF-INO superplay.

[KAI]

There's no M logos in Chaos Field.

[CptRansom]

I thinks it's more fun to discover how a scoring system works than spoiling the experience by watching videos or reading strategies.

Anyone agree?

Ain't nobody got time fo dat.

It was a real bitch to refrain from posting a pic.

[Jeneki]

There's no M logos in Chaos Field.

I got one on stage 2 in the Wii version. Was going for the quick kill, but not sure what triggered it. I was hoping someone here could explain it.

[trap15]

I do this occasionally, and I quite enjoy it! I've only done it for Futari Original (because it's simple enough that I didn't even need to), and G-Stream (because there isn't any info on that in the first place!).

[Ghegs]

I don't want to know strategies, but I do like knowing the basic gist of it. Going in completely blind feels like starting up a boardgame without anybody explaining the rules. At least lemme know that pawns can only advance one space at a time (EXCEPT for their first move, that's some deep strategy shit right there) while queens can go where ever they like in a straight line.

[Dave_K.]

I agree, experimentation and exploration of the scoring system can add a lot of fun to a game. For games with deep strategy this can extend the life of a game for quite awhile (i.e. raizing games). I remember when Pink Sweets first came out and I got the PCB...fun days figuring out how perverse Yagawa's rank system was, and speculation on how extends worked, and the infinite lives trick.

[n0rtygames]

Maybe it's just me, but I thinks it's more fun to discover how a scoring system works than spoiling the experience by watching videos or reading strategies.

Anyone agree?

Serious discussion, no pics plz.

I'm not one of those guys who can sit down, look at a game and within a day or so be able to talk as an authority about the games intricate mechanics, rank control and so on. I'm not that good - but still, I actually agree with this entirely.

During a dark time in my life, I played a certain MMO game. I always used to argue against people who took this "Watch strategies on youtube!!" approach. I want to actually play the game, have it kick my ass 99 times and then on the 100th go actually survive past whatever wall I'm currently hitting.

I think there's a point where you've had enough experience with the game playing for survival that it's okay to allow yourself a bit of discussion about strategies and scoring systems though. Sometimes, when you're just learning a game it's a lot to take on board to try and figure out the scoring systems aswell as going for the 1cc.

Example, I've been playing Futari BL original for long enough now that I pretty much only want to play for score. Anything nerfing my score usually results in an instant ragequit to main menu and restart. I took a break from playing to kick back and watch some replays. I usually play on Arcade mode and recently I've decided to move over to xbox360 mode to take on the larger player pool and see just how much I suck (Answer: Quite a lot!)

There's stuff to be learned from watching others play that you really might not ever think to even try. Hovering over the Dinosaur boss after you kill it during its flamethrower attack causes it to create those fast arcs of bullets which actually helps up your counter by a reasonable amount due to the cancelled bullets.

Also, if I'd not read the strategy forum for an understanding of how the shot switching mechanic works in Original mode - I may not have gotten quite so hooked on Futari.

So, tl;dr version - I think it's a good idea to try and figure out as much stuff as you can. You shouldn't give up within a couple of days because the game kicks your ass. These games were made to be beatable with enough practise after all. But there is a point where talking to a better player, or taking 5 minutes to sit down and pick up an extra strategy or two will just add to the replay value of the title.

[pestro87]

I agree 100%. I usually try to figure out everything on my own until I've gotten a 1cc with a score that I'm relatively satisfied with. After that, I look up videos and/or read strategy guides to see if I have missed something in regards to the scoring mechanics and what other strategies you could use on the levels/bosses.

[Jeneki]

Raiden Fighters is a good example of scoring system polarity.

It has a lot of secrets and hidden things to find. Those are awesome to run into a figure out. Most are pretty straight forward, shoot something a certain way for AT ONCE or QUICK KILL bonuses, or hover in an area for a bit for bonus items. I found most of these on my own before watching a video for the more obscure ones.

Now the medal system on the other hand, I have no idea how someone is supposed to figure that out on their own. Collect medals with different numbers of options, then once that's done get 10 on screen at the same time? Wtf? Even watching replays of someone getting the 100k medal values, it's very difficult to duplicate until someone explains exactly what's going on and why it works.

[Hagane]

Discovering stuff for yourself is nice (I'm proud of my Sengoku Blade second loop strategy NMNB, which I figured out with no video help since every video just bombed there). But, on the other hand, discovering every advanced bit about the game can be impossible, make things needlessly hard and time consuming and overall less fun, since you will often be stuck with subpar, less interesting strategies.

Ultimately it's pointless to handicap yourself in such a way; Japanese players shared and found new strategies watching good players at arcades or discussing new strategies with them, which is the social way of "reading guides and watching videos" (sadly, most of us don't have arcades with STGs, or arcades at all). It's not like you are disrupting the game's purity by learning stuff from others.

Discussing strategies, figuring out how that weird trick you saw in a video actually works and then trying to apply it to your play is extremely fun.

[KAI]

And what about games without strategies or videos available?

[hail good sir]

get

[Erppo]

The fun in shmups for me comes from the learning and getting better. Studying replays and guides improves the learning and therefore quite directly brings me more fun. Getting results is also fun and help takes me there faster.

[Jeneki]

If no videos or strategy guides are available, then it's just like the 80s again.

I'm playing Sky Adventure on and off that way (somehow fitting given the topic title). Not playing it in mame to practice with save states either, because I can't get the third button working and that's really important to the game play. Everything I know about enemy milking, boss quick kill bonuses, and strategic weapon cycling I got from playing the pcb.

[Necronopticous]

Collect medals with different numbers of options, then once that's done get 10 on screen at the same time? Wtf? Even watching replays of someone getting the 100k medal values, it's very difficult to duplicate until someone explains exactly what's going on and why it works.

I was able to figure this out thanks mostly to the hidden Miclus guys that shoot out, I believe, exactly 10 medals in rapid succession. I remember for a long time I assumed you absolutely needed to use a Miclus to progress past the medal stage of the scoring system.

[Giest118]

For me it depends on the game. DFK and MushiFutari Maniac annoyed me for quite a while until I saw in a guide what the fuck I was doing wrong, and even then I had to roll my eyes because the systems were designed to ONLY be learnable via a guide. There's fun to be had when you already know what the hell is going on, but until then you're going to be trying really hard to score and wondering why your score is so consistently shit.

Contrast with DoDonPachi, whose scoring is perfectly intuitive. You play for five seconds, blow up some tanks, and notice you have a combo going. Bam, you already know how to score in DDP. From there it's all about discovering key chaining points.

[Squire Grooktook]

If a scoring system is so complex that I need to "figure out how it works" then it's probably not my style anyway.

Not that I'm saying one shouldn't have to use some thinking in figuring out how to score optimally in some places, I just don't like where the core system that's present for most of the game is so arcane.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Unless it's a straight forward shooter I usually hate having to discover every little thing for myself. Usually I'll watch a super play to get the gist of it and to know what is possible. Take Akia Katana Climax mode when I started playing that for score I watched a video where I learnt the correct way of using the special weapons, the importance of boss milking and how to quickly charge my meter. What I don't want is a spoiler vid for the most optimal way to score in a stage, as applying my knowledge of the correct way to play in a stage is where the fun is for me.

That said I'm not always like that. If I just want to 1CC I go out of my way to avoid learning the scoring system since I know that If I do I'll get sidetracked into playing for score and I'm not skilled enough to play for both, it's burnt me out of the genre when I played like that in the past.

Some guys like to break the game down mathematically to find the optimal way to play. I'm not that type of player, that way of playing is tedious for me. (although hats off to those who do and provide the strategies for the rest of us to emulate)

[BulletMagnet]

There is something to be said for developers hinting at certain bits and pieces of their games and letting players discover them as opposed to revealing them outright, but for the most part I like to at least know how to properly use the tools at my disposal from the start, though not necessarily every last nuance of how to take maximum advantage of them. If a gameplay/scoring system is well-tuned enough then utilizing it should be fun even if you're not taking a journey of discovery whilst doing so; save said journey for the nitty-gritty stuff that comes naturally when the player is comfortable and squeezing more out of their play sessions.

[christianbelchior]

I think I figured out that Akashicverse's Rate is a multiplier, thus I can make a example like this:

Imagine enemy with 1,500 point value.
Imagine current Rate as 7.407.

Kill the enemy, and you would recieve:
1,500 * 7.407
= 11,111 (rounded to nearest integer)

[DMC]

It was nice to see at the STGTs how quickly you could learn a game by sharing strategies, watching each other's replays, encouraging each others, etc and reach quite competetiv scores within a week. I recall some teams like Namakoteam and Team Sweden having dedicated forums for just discussing the STGT games. I think for many of the STGT games, more information was shared during that week than across all other years combined.

That said, I agree with others it also feels nice exploring on your own. As a hobby, it can be a lot of fun, creative probem-solving trying to break down boss battles yourself. I think my typical (quite ineffective) approach to playing an STG is:

1. Check which ship seems to have best scoring potential, probably pick that one so I won't need to start over from scratch later.

2. Learn a little bit about the gist of the game from strategy threads or Wiki; scoring systems, 1ups or so.

3. Explore most stages as a blank slate without credit feeding or save stating or anything, because it is quite fun to slowy explore a game bit by bit (not spoiling it all at once). So for instance, the first time I ever reached stage 6 in Batte Garegga on one credit, I had never played that stage before, not even seen it. Having made maybe hundreds of attempts (or whatever it was) to beat stage 5, which was a wall for me, made it really epic and exciting to start playing stage 6 for the first time. Maybe I survived 20 seconds of that madness that was stage 6, but that was a sweet, triumphant 20 seconds moment.

4. If I like the game enough, I decide to get a bit more serious, like getting on with some stage practicing and watching others' replays. If it's mame I may save state some moments. Watching replays can be a pretty mind blowing experience at this stage. You have faced a boss and maybe struggled with it for hundreds of runs, and now you find out that you can do that?!. It can be a pretty satisfying experience in itself. One example was in Alien Soldier where I struggled with the spider boss but then a speedrunner showed that you could jump below the platform and kill him from below in an instance. It had never occured to me! https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1107&v= ... e=youtu.be

5. Trying to imitate stuff from others, adapting to my own path. Cleaning up the route.

6. Going for "the run".

7. If still a fun game (chances are it is not ), start playing creatively again without focusing too much on the end score. Trying to learn one new thing each run.