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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:09 pm 


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tnc wrote:
Thanks Xyga! Does filter 1 turn bilinear filter on? My prescale is set to 1, what does setting it to 2 do?

On an older mame ini I used, I had an HLSL setting that I configured using someone's settings here, I think it was cools'. What I did only was turning off the scanlines and bloom. Now copying those to the last build of mame doesn't work. I thought setting scanline_alpha to 0 would do the trick but scanlines are still visible. Is there any shader, setting you can recommend that just does a good scaling instead of a crt emulation?

edit: Oh, I already have bilinear on.

filter 1 -> turns bilinear on indeed
prescale 2 -> basically makes the smoothing much less strong/blurry

but this is a simple smoothing alternative to the basic bilinear, only when you don't use HLSL.
it doesn't create any significant stress not tearing so it's convenient when you want optimum lag reduction, just a simple not-awfully-blurry simple scaling, only slighly soft.

when you do use HLSL keep bilinear off (0) and prescale (1 is needed although equivalent to off)

Honestly I've quit using HLSL since the settings management has changed seveal times and I feel it's become way too bothersome, so I can't recommend settings anymore.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:32 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
tnc wrote:
Thanks Xyga! Does filter 1 turn bilinear filter on? My prescale is set to 1, what does setting it to 2 do?

On an older mame ini I used, I had an HLSL setting that I configured using someone's settings here, I think it was cools'. What I did only was turning off the scanlines and bloom. Now copying those to the last build of mame doesn't work. I thought setting scanline_alpha to 0 would do the trick but scanlines are still visible. Is there any shader, setting you can recommend that just does a good scaling instead of a crt emulation?

edit: Oh, I already have bilinear on.

filter 1 -> turns bilinear on indeed
prescale 2 -> basically makes the smoothing much less strong/blurry

but this is a simple smoothing alternative to the basic bilinear, only when you don't use HLSL.
it doesn't create any significant stress not tearing so it's convenient when you want optimum lag reduction, just a simple not-awfully-blurry simple scaling, only slighly soft.

when you do use HLSL keep bilinear off (0) and prescale (1 is needed although equivalent to off)

Honestly I've quit using HLSL since the settings management has changed seveal times and I feel it's become way too bothersome, so I can't recommend settings anymore.


Alright, thank you! prescale 2 was just the kind of sharp I wanted.

edit: Wow, interesting. I get tearing in the middle of the screen when I set prescale to 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:26 am 


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Shouldn't. But there can be a number of reasons for that. Speculations in no particular order:
-Remember to start from clean frame_delay and vsync_offset settings, and start with setting frame_delay first.
-Remember that frame_delay is useless for games that fall below the range covered by sync_refresh_tolerance. if it's set on 2 (Hz) only games down to 58Hz will be handled by syncrefresh/framedelay. those with a refresh rate inferior to that fall to triplebuffering and shouldn't have frame_delay nor offset activated in their specific .ini's
-A handful of resolutions don't scale well using filter 1 and prescale 2, a 'tearing' line may appear but in this case it's due to a rescaling error. from my experience this isn't consistent, I thougth it might be due to changes in MAME but it seems more likely that GPUs and drivers (AMD/nVidia) are to blame.
-In some cases using integer scaling might help (unevenstretch 0, intoverscan 1) but it's not very useful if your monitor/tv isn't quite high-res, 1080p is a bit too small for using integer scaling especially in regards to vertical games in yoko/landscape.
-Remember that in D3D (btw are you using a D3D9EX build? you should) it's your GPU that's in charge of MAME's video output and a number of quirks might apply. Lately I've swapped my 750ti with a r7 260x and those 'scale-tearing' errors were gone. Changing to a higher resolution display (1080p > 1200p in my case) also eliminated the issue no matter the GPU.
-Lastly remember Groovy needs both decent CPU and GPU power, for an effective/working frame_delay set rather high (7~8) plus post-processing (shader, filter, overlay whatever) your GPU needs enough margin to work with, even for something rather lightweight like bilinear+prescale2. Again it might be necessary to decrease frame_delay by 1 (and combine with sync_offset or not idk it's to your appreciation) with games where it's too cramped for 'having it all'.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:23 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Shouldn't. But there can be a number of reasons for that. Speculations in no particular order:
-Remember to start from clean frame_delay and vsync_offset settings, and start with setting frame_delay first.
-Remember that frame_delay is useless for games that fall below the range covered by sync_refresh_tolerance. if it's set on 2 (Hz) only games down to 58Hz will be handled by syncrefresh/framedelay. those with a refresh rate inferior to that fall to triplebuffering and shouldn't have frame_delay nor offset activated in their specific .ini's
-A handful of resolutions don't scale well using filter 1 and prescale 2, a 'tearing' line may appear but in this case it's due to a rescaling error. from my experience this isn't consistent, I thougth it might be due to changes in MAME but it seems more likely that GPUs and drivers (AMD/nVidia) are to blame.
-In some cases using integer scaling might help (unevenstretch 0, intoverscan 1) but it's not very useful if your monitor/tv isn't quite high-res, 1080p is a bit too small for using integer scaling especially in regards to vertical games in yoko/landscape.
-Remember that in D3D (btw are you using a D3D9EX build? you should) it's your GPU that's in charge of MAME's video output and a number of quirks might apply. Lately I've swapped my 750ti with a r7 260x and those 'scale-tearing' errors were gone. Changing to a higher resolution display (1080p > 1200p in my case) also eliminated the issue no matter the GPU.
-Lastly remember Groovy needs both decent CPU and GPU power, for an effective/working frame_delay set rather high (7~8) plus post-processing (shader, filter, overlay whatever) your GPU needs enough margin to work with, even for something rather lightweight like bilinear+prescale2. Again it might be necessary to decrease frame_delay by 1 (and combine with sync_offset or not idk it's to your appreciation) with games where it's too cramped for 'having it all'.


Syncrefresh and waitvsync should be both set to 1 for vsync to be active, right? If either of them is set to 0, I get tearing. My sync_refresh_tolerance is set to 2 by default.

Even if I set frame_delay to 0, if prescale is 2 whether bilinear is on or off, there is a thin line of "tearing" the way you describe so it probably is due to rescaling. I have Geforce GTX 960, it's driver is updated. My cpu is an i7-6700 at 3.40GHz by the way. I'm using a D3D build and i set video under OSD VIDEO OPTIONS to d3d. It's not a big deal, I don't have to set prescale to 2 but if someting is wrong of course I'd rather fix it.

I found out that changing bilinear in the mane.ini doesn't work, only setting it for individual machines works. It's same for hlsl settings for me by the way. Now having a seperate ini, I was able to remove scanlines and bloom the way I wanted.

By the way, what does modeline_generation do? I have it set to 1 by default.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:57 pm 


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tnc wrote:
Syncrefresh and waitvsync should be both set to 1 for vsync to be active, right?

Absolutely not!
You only need autosync 1, then GroovyMAME will manage by itself activating the fitting sync method.
Your current settings actually disable the correct behaviour of GroovyMAME.

Quote:
my sync_refresh_tolerance is set to 2 by default

that's ok.

Quote:
Even if I set frame_delay to 0, if prescale is 2 whether bilinear is on or off, there is a thin line of "tearing" the way you describe so it probably is due to rescaling. I have Geforce GTX 960, it's driver is updated. My cpu is an i7-6700 at 3.40GHz by the way. I'm using a D3D build and i set video under OSD VIDEO OPTIONS to d3d. It's not a big deal, I don't have to set prescale to 2 but if someting is wrong of course I'd rather fix it.

putting that aside from now you should first witness what happens with correct settings, from a fresh mame.ini when you first use GroovyMAME (recent build) the only thing you should have to set is the monitor type under the CORE SWITCHRES category:
Code:
monitor                   lcd

everything else should be set by GM automatically, internally, without your intervention.
-then try a game or two: if you see tearing, that means something's really wrong to begin and it is not yet time to adjust frame_delay nor make specific ini's
-if there's no tearing activate filter 1, prescale 2 (in a specific ini this time), and check again for tearing. if you see some here as I explained it might be a scaling issue rather than a sync one and it'll likely be your GPU's fault, in which case just forget that option for now and only use either filter 1 alone or HLSL.

you need to do this in that order otherwise you won't be able to correctly identify the cause

Quote:
I found out that changing bilinear in the mane.ini doesn't work, only setting it for individual machines works. It's same for hlsl settings for me by the way. Now having a seperate ini, I was able to remove scanlines and bloom the way I wanted.

yes that's normal, I don't remember the reason but basically after selecting 'monitor lcd' leave the mame.ini and adjust/select/tweak everything from your specific .ini's in the ini folder.

Quote:
By the way, what does modeline_generation do? I have it set to 1 by default.

although I have noticed it isn't absolutely necessary, you might want to disable it, yes.

PS: I recommend again using a d3d9ex build, although it isn't compulsory, compared to baseline MAME it still grants lower lag in smooth-synced situations even without using frame_delay (2 frames faster by default which isn't half bad) and also even when Groovy switches to triplebuffer for games under 58Hz.
Well if you really only play games that are at least 58hz and plan to always use frame_delay, then yeas you may not need a d3d9ex build, but that's a more limited Groovy as a whole IMHO.
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Last edited by Xyga on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:05 pm 


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is there any way to make groovymame stop registering the controller buttons for savestates and enable numpad instead like in regular mame?
also how to make it stop crashing every 10 minutes


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:13 pm 


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I only know Calamity is aware and working on these issues.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:33 pm 


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Thanks Xyga. Only setting monitor to lcd there is no tearing. Yet there is still the same thin line in the center when prescale set to 2.

I downloaded the d3d9ex build from this link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... VNkVW5jbEE
But the last one is for v0.197 right now. Does anyone know where I can download a v0.198 build?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:57 pm 


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Seems you have the scaling tear line issue indeed. No luck. I'm beginning to believe this is an nVidia issue, because there's two AMD cards I've tried prescale 2 with and didn't experience this (while two nVidia do, although one of them is a fake/laptop chipset)
No idea if that's fixable, it's an old 'bug' few people are aware of because they either don't use bilinear or are not aware of what prescale does. anyway forget it.

0.198 -> there is none, I think Calamity sometimes skips a build or two when he's too busy or researching something specific. We will probably have a 0.199 or 0.200 though.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:01 pm 


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By the way is it normal that video under OSD VIDEO OPTIONS stays at auto? Should I manually change it to d3d?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:07 pm 


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Groovy should be able to pick d3d automatically every time it runs.
And when you use a d3d9ex build it picks d3d9ex.
(in both cases if you're not sure just write 'd3d' there in the mame.ini and it'll be fine too. yep no use to write 'd3d9ex' either, just 'd3d' in both builds)
You don't see it but that's how GM is set up to work internally.
Actually you could see it happening with a console running in a second window (don't ask me how), or if you want to know almost everything about how GM is running on your computer and if there are issues or not; you can create a log by running a game using the specific command line (check groovy's forums for it)

EDIT/PS: for even more optimal settings you could also enable portaudio and set the audio delay to 1, this reduces audio lag if that matters to you, but I don't know much about it and think we have hijacked the thread enough! :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:17 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Groovy should be able to pick d3d automatically every time it runs.
And when you use a d3d9ex build it picks d3d9ex.
(in both cases if you're not sure just write 'd3d' there in the mame.ini and it'll be fine too. yep no use to write 'd3d9ex' either, just 'd3d' in both builds)
You don't see it but that's how GM is set up to work internally.
Actually you could see it happening with a console running in a second window (don't ask me how), or if you want to know almost everything about how GM is running on your computer and if there are issues or not; you can create a log by running a game using the specific command line (check groovy's forums for it)

EDIT/PS: for even more optimal settings you could also enable portaudio and set the audio delay to 1, this reduces audio lag if that matters to you, but I don't know much about it and think we have hijacked the thread enough! :mrgreen:


Alright, thanks a lot again Xyga, seriously this has been great help.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:28 pm 


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You're welcome, hopefully some time from now Calamity will have a build prepped more specifically for LCD users along with some fixes and convenience features.
(when though is impossible to predict as from what I grabbed there are of course technical issues and he doesn't have all the free time he wants to work on GM anyway)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:10 am 


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Not much to do with the actual game, but...I love that song at the start of this DOJ Superplay video on PS2. Does anyone know what it's called or who composed it? Such a nostalgic sound.
https://youtu.be/G1WkH_bF5O0


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:35 pm 


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Are there any good Giga Wing styled shmups that use its style of reflect mechanic? There's tons of Ikaruga style polarity shmups, and there's Leiria: Stargazer which is a good Espgaluda style shmup, but the only one with a reflect mechanic similar to Giga Wing is the XB360 Indie game "Vampire Rage" - is that really all there is out there?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:15 pm 


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^omg mentioning Vampire Rage just brought back a flood of weird XBLIG shmup memories

Not sure if this is what you're after but what about Homura? You have a sword which reflects bullets, but its main function is a super attack that gives you a multiplier the more enemies it hits.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:09 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Are there any good Giga Wing styled shmups that use its style of reflect mechanic? There's tons of Ikaruga style polarity shmups, and there's Leiria: Stargazer which is a good Espgaluda style shmup, but the only one with a reflect mechanic similar to Giga Wing is the XB360 Indie game "Vampire Rage" - is that really all there is out there?

rRootage has GW mode, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head, which is surprising. There are some like RefleX which have a reflecting shield that is freely activated and deactivated in contrast to Giga Wing's timer-based charge, and also some like Fairy Wars and ring^-27 (Bomb mode) that have cancelling attacks on a short timer but aren't quite reflection either.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:10 pm 


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Thanks for the suggestions!

I've also played the Vasara games which occurs to me that their charge attacks are very reflecty and satisfying to use too, so those are also a close approximation to the "feel" of the GW series.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:14 pm 


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In both Karous and Illvelo, you have a shield that can reflect bullets after you use it enough for it to level up.
Bosses in particular require you to fully use that property to kill them before they time out.
Overall, it's not exactly as in Gigawing given that there is no jauge that restraints the shields but the bullet reflection mechanic is there and is important in the context of the game.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:12 pm 


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Thoughts on R Type III?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:04 am 


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On Mushi Futari on the Xbox 360, is there a way to adjust "difficulty"?
I'm not talking about Original/Maniac/Ultra modes, I mean in terms of Easy/Normal/Hard.

When you let the attract mode run a Rank 2 (Normal) message appears in the scrolling text below PRESS START BUTTON on all modes except for Arrange (no indication) and Novice (it shows Rank 1 - Easy).
However, I can't find an option anywhere in the game where this is available for visualization or adjustments.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:14 am 


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This has been bothering me:

How was Battle Garegga able to influence Cho Ren Sha when it was released a year later? I initially figured it was just an error/assumption, but even in the shmuplation he mentions being influenced by STGs installed at game centers at the time, and cited Garegga. Are one of the release dates wrong? Did he know Yagawa and get an early crack at the game, or just see early promos for it? Is the dev of Cho Ren Sha stuck in a time loop, and this game was his way of telling us?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:45 am 


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The developer's postmortem (translation on Shmuplations) says v.010 was sold at Comiket in 1995, but the full v1.00 release wasn't until 1998.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:01 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
The developer's postmortem (translation on Shmuplations) says v.010 was sold at Comiket in 1995, but the full v1.00 release wasn't until 1998.


Ah okay, thank you!
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:05 am 


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Mega Drive Shmups, come at me please.

Anyone knows what's up with those apparently Japanese copies of Thunder Force II MD, that come with a manual WITHOUT holes on the left side? Are they legit? Maybe NTSC Asian releases? Late reprints (when the whole idea of punching freaking holes into manuals was accepted as just bad)?

I can't figure it out, so I thought to drop some info request here as well.
Thanks in advance! ^_-


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:44 pm 


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I could easily be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's a first-run thing, limited to the earliest (1989) releases. My NTSCJ Herzog Zwei's manual has holes punched, just like TFII's... and Herzog was released after Mahjong Cop, a freebie NOS copy of which is sat on the desk in front of me. No holes in Mahjong's manual.

Again I might be wrong, but it doesn't appear to be a counterfeit of any sort. I'd assume it's just a second run, unless Mahjong Cop is a helluva lot more desirable than I've been led to believe. :mrgreen:

Of course it's possible only certain earlier games got the holes punched.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:20 am 


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BIL wrote:
I could easily be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's a first-run thing, limited to the earliest (1989) releases. My NTSCJ Herzog Zwei's manual has holes punched, just like TFII's... and Herzog was released after Mahjong Cop, a freebie NOS copy of which is sat on the desk in front of me. No holes in Mahjong's manual.

Again I might be wrong, but it doesn't appear to be a counterfeit of any sort. I'd assume it's just a second run, unless Mahjong Cop is a helluva lot more desirable than I've been led to believe. :mrgreen:

Of course it's possible only certain earlier games got the holes punched.

Thanks! ^_-

Yeah, I assumed pretty much the same, even though I have to say I've never seen a Japanese manual for Altered Beast or Herzog Zwei without holes. It may be exclusive to TFII, who knows.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:34 am 


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I'm just idly wondering why the Switch seems to be pushing its way first in line for the majority of Arcade Archive/Shmup releases - is it doing that well in Japan? Omega Fighter has just popped up on the Switch shop, ideally I'd like that on PS4 with the rest of my AA titles, but depending on the gap it's going to be hard to resist. And then there's the stuff that I caved and bought on Switch (Waku Waku 7 & Blazing Star)that's now out for PS4.... Gives me a headache. Also the Psikyo stuff - any reason we know of why that's all Switch only?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:52 am 


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omega fighter is on the jpn psn store just not the uk one yet
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:15 am 


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It was on the EUR store yesterday already.
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