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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:30 pm 


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I understand that there is some manner of R-Type port on the 360, how good or bad is it?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:52 pm 


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I've seen Hardware (what I assume is engineer) credits in a lot of arcade shmups, but I thought about it and, what exactly did they do if the game borrows hardware from an earlier title? Did they act as consultant, answering questions from the programmers about registers or bus data or whatehaveyou? Was this just a formality thanking them for their work from sometimes years prior? I also assume they didn't just sit around waiting for the phone to ring; management probably had them working on new hardware designs constantly?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:56 pm 


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LordHypnos wrote:
I understand that there is some manner of R-Type port on the 360, how good or bad is it?


Kiken has always suggested R-Type Dimensions is a bit rickety, and generally inferior to the IREM-produced R-Types (PS1). Never had reason to try it myself, but it seems to be regarded as adequate at best.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:06 pm 


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BIL wrote:
LordHypnos wrote:
I understand that there is some manner of R-Type port on the 360, how good or bad is it?


Kiken has always suggested R-Type Dimensions is a bit rickety, and generally inferior to the IREM-produced R-Types (PS1). Never had reason to try it myself, but it seems to be regarded as adequate at best.

Thanks for the link! Unfortunately, he is only speaking about R-Type II, but that's still pretty good to know. From reading a bit further, it looks like it might just be basically a port of the (inferior) world or maybe NA release of R-Type II. I downloaded the R-Type Dimensions demo, and it did seem like stage 1 of R-Type is the same, at least, but the autofire rate is slower than the one that I use in MAME, so it's a little harder. I'm still considering buying it, but IDK. No reason to rush, anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:19 pm 


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Crumbs, up too late here. :mrgreen: Yeah it seems they used the World ROMsets. Ghegs also mentioned some Force weirdness, this time in R-Type 1 (though he also clarified the ports aren't terrible or anything).
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:21 am 


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BIL wrote:
Crumbs, up too late here. :mrgreen: Yeah it seems they used the World ROMsets. Ghegs also mentioned some Force weirdness, this time in R-Type 1 (though he also clarified the ports aren't terrible or anything).

That's a pretty nice summary. Thanks!
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:01 am 



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Hi all. Wasn't sure whether to post this here or the new user introduction thread, but I figured this was probably the best place.

I'm getting a bit old/busy for games, but I still have time for shortform stuff like shmups. Getting really good at an arcade style game is something on my bucket list. I know reaching superplay status takes tens of thousands of credits and lots of practice, but I'm up for the work.

My question is: what shmup should I go with? That's very broad but I've tried to narrow it down based on the shmups farm Top 25 lists and my own preferences. I've been messing around with MAME and have a short list to work with. The problem is I'm not very good at these games, probably a low-mid level player, so I don't know how they'll change (for better or worse) when I put more work in.

Short list: Eschatos, Gradius V, Ketsui, Mars Matrix, Mushihimesama Black Label, Battle Garegga

Thoughts: I'm not a big fan of straightforward enemy chaining. I lean towards shmups with dynamic scoring systems that aren't entirely memorization (I know a lot of memorizing is unavoidable with enough practice). Gradius V is on here because I love the stage design and it might be cool to master a "marathon shmup." I'm having trouble getting into Garegga because of camouflage bullets and the rank system sounds weird, but it's so highly regarded I must be missing something. I'm loving Mushi BL on Original but I don't know how good the scoring is for Maniac/God. Ketsui is way outside my skill level but I've been grinding out the first two stages for decent scores, and Ura Loop/TLB are enticing rewards for mastery. Right now I most enjoy Mars Matrix, it feels so rewarding/flexible, I got a real high when I earned my first twelve digit score, but I am a little worried the dynamic chaining will get stale when you get a set route. Eschatos Advanced/Endless don't appeal to me but Original is so good.

Sorry for the blog post lmao. Basically I'm looking for opinions on how good these games "hold up" when you put enough time in. Also looking for other suggestions on good shmups to think about. For now I'll probably narrow my list down to three or four, put a decent chunk of time into those, then make a final pick. But I could use some help/opinions reaching those three or four. If you got through this wall of text thanks for reading/any advice you have. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:12 pm 


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If you're not getting any fun from just playing them, then I'd say drop it altogether and play something else. Most enjoyment from shmups usually starts from the satisfaction of survival and nabbing a 1CC, and as you get better you start having fun with score and strategies. Any extra mechanics are usually just icing on the cake. It's not a matter of how much time you spend in order to finally start having fun, but it's a matter of whether or not the game clicks with your preferences.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:29 pm 


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all shmups are eventually "entirely memorization" if you want to get good at them, it all revolves around detailed knowledge and what to do
it's unavoidable if you actually want to be really good at them


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:04 pm 


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Bananamatic is definitely right when it comes to getting high scores. Actually, I would say that for someone with low skills in general, basically all shmups require memorization even for a scrubby 1cc. You just have to have a route. Generally this will happen if you keep playing enough anyway, because you start remembering where enemies spawn and stuff. I would say that the most important thing to getting a good score as a lower skill player is to make sure you're playing a game that keeps being fun no matter how many times it kills you. That's probably where you should start. I'd also say it's probably going to be more enjoyable to try to clear first (maybe with some scoring), then keep on refining you're route to get higher scores. All of this advice is based on my experience as a pretty lousy shmup player who has cleared Mars Matrix (DC version) and gotten a pretty good score (3.8 million experience and 1.8 trillion points or something like that), but has not been able to stick to any other games long enough to clear (with a few, very easy non-arcade, and easy mode exceptions, but even most easy games are a combination of being too hard and too boring for me to get through).
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:35 pm 


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Play what you like. If you're enjoying Mars Matrix I say stick with it.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:02 pm 


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I think saying that all shmups eventually require memorization, while not wrong, oversimplifies what memorization is and misses what people actually dislike about "memorization-heavy" games. Not all memorization is created equal. It also ignores the fact that some shmups have a lot of RNG to deal with.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:14 pm 


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Shepardus wrote:
I think saying that all shmups eventually require memorization, while not wrong, oversimplifies what memorization is and misses what people actually dislike about "memorization-heavy" games. Not all memorization is created equal. It also ignores the fact that some shmups have a lot of RNG to deal with.

You're certainly not wrong in saying this. There's a difference between insta-death lasers that you can't possibly anticipate unless you know they're there already, and remembering that enemy x spawns on the top right of the screen, and you need to go to the bottom left to have a better chance to dodge its bullet spam.

However, the questioner seems to want to play for score, and seems to think (if I'm understanding correctly, which I might not be) that you can play for score without having a pretty thoroughly learned route, and... well I haven't played every game, but I'm pretty sure any competetive scoring game is going to require a pretty strict route to get a reasonably high score.

That being said, It's worth mentioning, that, at least in my own experience of playing Mars Matrix for score, you're going to have to improvise sometimes even with a route, and having a route is by no means a guarantee of even getting a 1cc of the game, much less a high score. I certainly wouldn't call Mars Matrix a "memorizer," though it's possible that that reflects more on my inexperience than anything else. But as for the first point of games requiring improvisation even with a strict route, I'm sure this is true of basically any game until you get to like world record levels of score where there actually is no room for any mistakes.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:34 pm 



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Rue wrote:
If you're not getting any fun from just playing them, then I'd say drop it altogether and play something else. Most enjoyment from shmups usually starts from the satisfaction of survival and nabbing a 1CC, and as you get better you start having fun with score and strategies. Any extra mechanics are usually just icing on the cake. It's not a matter of how much time you spend in order to finally start having fun, but it's a matter of whether or not the game clicks with your preferences.


Don't get me wrong, I'm having a lot of fun with them right now. I want to avoid a situation where I pick up a game, learn it inside and out, then realize the game is boring/stale at top play levels. Since I don't have that much free time anymore that's a pitfall I want to avoid if I can.

For example I've read that some top Ikaruga players don't think especially highly of the game. That could be false/hearsay/a meme but the idea of investing so much time to learn something that starts fun and dynamic, but gets uninteresting/unsatisfying, is kind of a scary one.

Re: memorization, I really just want some room for creativity. Gold cube chaining is cool because (at least at my skill level) I have a lot of choices for how to continue a chain. Every time I play MM I make some changes/improvements to my amateur route, and when things go wrong I can improvise to maintain scoring. I don't think I would enjoy a game where there's a set, simple route and mastery of a game is just executing that route... but that might be a necessary result of skilled shmup play.

If no one thinks the games I'm looking into are bad for scoring at top levels, I guess I should just play them some more and pick the one I like the most.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:33 pm 


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RVCountry wrote:
I don't think I would enjoy a game where there's a set, simple route and mastery of a game is just executing that route... but that might be a necessary result of skilled shmup play.

but having a set, simple route you can execute almost every time is what makes the game easier, not harder
improvisation is really just trying to get out of a situation you shouldn't have ended up in in the first place
knowing beforehand what to do and sticking to the plan is the safest and most consistent way to play the games at any skill level and deviating from that approach on purpose is just shooting yourself in the foot


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:42 pm 


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RVCountry wrote:
Rue wrote:
If you're not getting any fun from just playing them, then I'd say drop it altogether and play something else. Most enjoyment from shmups usually starts from the satisfaction of survival and nabbing a 1CC, and as you get better you start having fun with score and strategies. Any extra mechanics are usually just icing on the cake. It's not a matter of how much time you spend in order to finally start having fun, but it's a matter of whether or not the game clicks with your preferences.


Don't get me wrong, I'm having a lot of fun with them right now. I want to avoid a situation where I pick up a game, learn it inside and out, then realize the game is boring/stale at top play levels. Since I don't have that much free time anymore that's a pitfall I want to avoid if I can.

For example I've read that some top Ikaruga players don't think especially highly of the game. That could be false/hearsay/a meme but the idea of investing so much time to learn something that starts fun and dynamic, but gets uninteresting/unsatisfying, is kind of a scary one.

Re: memorization, I really just want some room for creativity. Gold cube chaining is cool because (at least at my skill level) I have a lot of choices for how to continue a chain. Every time I play MM I make some changes/improvements to my amateur route, and when things go wrong I can improvise to maintain scoring. I don't think I would enjoy a game where there's a set, simple route and mastery of a game is just executing that route... but that might be a necessary result of skilled shmup play.

If no one thinks the games I'm looking into are bad for scoring at top levels, I guess I should just play them some more and pick the one I like the most.

Well, I will say that even with the fact that I'm following a strict route throughout the entire game and have everything completely memorized, I definitely still really enjoy playing it to this day, so yeah. Speaking for myself has not gotten stale. And at my skill level there is actually still some improvisation (though it is mostly when I make a mistake) and a lot of room for improvement, so yeah. It definitely does not get easy just because I have it memorized, either.

I'm sure this is true of most games that are highly regarded by people playing for score, too, as most of them have several dimensions to scoring, even in chaining systems. In Mars Matrix this is pretty obvious, as you can use bullets to create cubes off of any enemy so you've got gold chaining + using your shield to strategically create gold for yourself to fill in gaps or maximize experience in various spots, but I think stuff like hypers in DDP DOJ serves a similar role. I think there most likely is an optimal route in all of these games, but it's entirely possible it has yet to be discovered in a lot of them. Not to mention that the optimal route is probably only something to worry about if you are going for a world record.

IDK, I'm kinda rambling here. I can really only speak to Mars Matrix as a scoring game, but it's pretty great, pretty deep, and (in my experience) far from dull ever.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:50 pm 


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RVCountry wrote:
For example I've read that some top Ikaruga players don't think especially highly of the game. That could be false/hearsay/a meme but the idea of investing so much time to learn something that starts fun and dynamic, but gets uninteresting/unsatisfying, is kind of a scary one.

I can say that fully chaining a chapter, or even a single section, of Ikaruga doesn't ever stop feeling good. And after nailing down the full-chain routes, you have still room for improvement in terms of better bullet eating or even just pure beauty of movement. Mind you, it does become frustrating when you start going after absolute perfection and have to rinse and repeat after each minor error, but I wonder what doesn't - even outside of video gaming.

I think your fears are unwarranted. Unless you're an incredibly gifted player, you will realize if a certain game is unsatisying to play for score way before approaching any score that's worth a damn :)


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:17 am 



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I have a question about Dodonpachi Daioujou White Label's ship hitboxes.
I've seen an image around that showed where they are located, but I can't find it again. I spent a while looking around, but didn't turn anything up.
Does anyone have something on this still around?
Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:52 am 


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A quick Google search sent me here.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:34 pm 



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That's great! I appreciate the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:10 am 


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A couple more R-Type questions:

how big of a difference does a faster vs a slower autofire rate make once you've upgraded past the pea shooter. To put it another way, what is the rate of fire like on the non-pea shooter weapons? I imagine it would make more of a difference on the vertical shooting weapon, because the pea shooter is your only forward shot there, and maybe a little difference on the laser weapon because the pea shooter is also still firing with that weapon, and probably much less difference for the powerful forward shot weapon.

Also, where is your hitbox? It would seem that the hitbox position is kind of focused toward the front of the ship because it would seem as if junk can overlap a little with the back of your ship without issue.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:49 am 


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IIRC the hitbox in R-Type is actually a single pixel, but the terrain and other hitboxes are enlarged to compensate. More efficient for collision-checking. Not sure where that point is though.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:13 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
IIRC the hitbox in R-Type is actually a single pixel, but the terrain and other hitboxes are enlarged to compensate. More efficient for collision-checking. Not sure where that point is though.

Aha, that makes things complicated. Ha ha ha. I guess I'm more interested in where the effective hitbox is rather than anything else. Like what parts of the ship are invulnerable. I don't actually think it will make much of a difference, since my routes seem pretty solid, and what usually lets me down is my own sloppiness instead, but it never hurts to know exactly where your ship is vulnerable.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:27 am 



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What's the fastest way of leveling up in Psyvariar?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:42 pm 


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LordHypnos wrote:
BIL wrote:
LordHypnos wrote:
I understand that there is some manner of R-Type port on the 360, how good or bad is it?


Kiken has always suggested R-Type Dimensions is a bit rickety, and generally inferior to the IREM-produced R-Types (PS1). Never had reason to try it myself, but it seems to be regarded as adequate at best.

Thanks for the link! Unfortunately, he is only speaking about R-Type II, but that's still pretty good to know. From reading a bit further, it looks like it might just be basically a port of the (inferior) world or maybe NA release of R-Type II. I downloaded the R-Type Dimensions demo, and it did seem like stage 1 of R-Type is the same, at least, but the autofire rate is slower than the one that I use in MAME, so it's a little harder. I'm still considering buying it, but IDK. No reason to rush, anyway.


On the original game, I once got to the end of the level only for the force to refuse to register hits on the boss's weak point, either by touching it, or with its bullets. Only once, and only weird thing I've seen, but it's never happened to me in 20-odd years of playing the arcade game.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:09 pm 


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Opinions on the Gradius III SNES/SFC port? Is it different enough to try a playthrough? Thanks.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:03 pm 


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soprano1 wrote:
Opinions on the Gradius III SNES/SFC port? Is it different enough to try a playthrough? Thanks.


Half a new game and half remixed. Slowdown is particularly bad, but for my money it's more enjoyable than the AC simplbefause it isn't so bloody minded ly difficult. Soundtrack is awesome too.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:08 pm 


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Marc wrote:
Half a new game and half remixed. Slowdown is particularly bad, but for my money it's more enjoyable than the AC simplbefause it isn't so bloody minded ly difficult. Soundtrack is awesome too.

Interesting, thank you for the reply.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:20 am 


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In MAME, is there a way to start an -aviwrite from the middle of an input file? Sometimes I want to create a short clip from the middle of a run for which I've recorded an input file, so what I'd like to do is play back the input file and fast-forward it to the part I want to record, and then press a button to start the recording, without writing 20GB of video for everything before then. I've seen entries in the MAME input configuration that suggest that there are buttons to do that, but I've never been able to get them to do anything of note.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:34 pm 


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Dunno if this helps but for very short clips you can turn MNG recording on/off at will in Shmupmame4, I think the hotkey is alt+F12 or ctrl+F12. Drawbacks are it doesn't record sound and you have to convert from MNG to AVI to upload it anywhere.
Apparently some more recent MAME builds have this: "Alt+F11 Record HLSL Rendered Video."


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