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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:18 pm 


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After more than a year of playing Gunbird 2, it was not until I purchased the Dreamcast port that I realized that there was a melee attack in the game. How could I have missed it?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:44 pm 



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ratikal wrote:
'I thought this up while I was stoned out of my mind but what if "Gradius" was actually supposed to be called "Gladius"? It would make sense because isn't there a sword in the medical symbol. The gradius ship is like a snake from that symbol, getting rid of the infecting bacterions. So it's like its also a sword from that symbol.


That's an interesting interpretation, but in an interview blackoak translated with designer Kengo Nakamura, he says...

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Although the word Gladius means short sword, we didn't intend that meaning at all, and it's just a coincidence. Several years later someone said to me, "doesn't the title refer to a Gladius?", and that was the first time I realized it. Even though it was just a coincidence, I remember being really surprised. (laughs)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:34 am 


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Can someone just confirm really quick: in DFK 1.5, how does the difficulty change between ship types, bomb and power styles? I think Strong (C-Type) makes the game harder, is there any difference between the others?

I have this at the local arcade and it's pissing me off because it's in a cab with 3 buttons (and I can't seem to communicate with the staff well enough for them to switch it.) So I'm relegated to playing Bomb style as I can't access the boost button in Power. :?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:42 am 


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Skykid wrote:
Can someone just confirm really quick: in DFK 1.5, how does the difficulty change between ship types, bomb and power styles? I think Strong (C-Type) makes the game harder, is there any difference between the others?

I have this at the local arcade and it's pissing me off because it's in a cab with 3 buttons (and I can't seem to communicate with the staff well enough for them to switch it.) So I'm relegated to playing Bomb style as I can't access the boost button in Power. :?


Strong-style only makes the game harder in Black Label.

In 1.5, the bullet patterns are the same between each ship. What changes is your ship's firepower and whether you get bombs. Power style starts with no bombs and can pick up and hold one bomb. Both Bomb and Strong styles get the same number of bombs, but Strong has more firepower than Bomb.

So in 1.5, you could say that Strong style is actually a sort of easy mode. At least, it is for survival. I don't know enough about scoring to comment on that.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:56 am 


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^ Thanks Giest, and egads, that is so weird!

I know BL pretty well and remember Strong gives you 2nd loop patterns, but I was sure playing B-Type on 1.5 in the arcade recently was making the patterns easier than C-Type! As I said, no fourth button means I'm relegated to playing Bomb type only, b/c I can't switch between boost and power, so I'm just on board for survival: but perhaps it was the hyper rank that made C-Type seem tougher? Is that a possibility (depending on how I use them?)

Anyway, I'll go back in a bit. Just trying for a dirty Bomb clear on Ura route. ;)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:04 am 


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Each ship type has different power as far as cancelling bullets with hypers. I'm pretty sure that from strongest to weakest hyper-canceling, it goes A, B, C. Playing Strong style also give you better cancelling ability, though Power style's Boost mode has the strongest hyper cancelling.

I did notice that the B ship is pretty badass overall though, but I think what you're experiencing is a slightly better ability to cancel bullets during hypers. :V
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:06 am 


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In addition to what Giest wrote above...

Skykid wrote:
...perhaps it was the hyper rank that made C-Type seem tougher? Is that a possibility (depending on how I use them?)


Using more hypers does ramp up the hyper rank pretty fast in 1.5 (much faster than in BL, for sure). It can get to the point where it takes so many shots to cancel bullets that it's more useful to hyper just for the purposes of generating slowdown. So yeah, depending on how you use hypers, that could definitely be a factor in the perceived difficulty.

The other thing is that since B-type has steerable shot, you might've been inadvertently killing popcorn as they were entering the screen, thus making some stretches of the game easier without consciously realizing it.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:29 am 


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Giest118 wrote:
I did notice that the B ship is pretty badass overall though, but I think what you're experiencing is a slightly better ability to cancel bullets during hypers. :V


It could be that. For some reason I was convinced the patterns were slightly slower/sparser, but it could be other factors.

Softdrink 117 wrote:
Using more hypers does ramp up the hyper rank pretty fast in 1.5 (much faster than in BL, for sure). It can get to the point where it takes so many shots to cancel bullets that it's more useful to hyper just for the purposes of generating slowdown. So yeah, depending on how you use hypers, that could definitely be a factor in the perceived difficulty.

The other thing is that since B-type has steerable shot, you might've been inadvertently killing popcorn as they were entering the screen, thus making some stretches of the game easier without consciously realizing it.


Thanks all for the info. I'll do some experimenting. On a final note, I'm correct in remembering general scoring in 1.5 revolves around hypering through to the midboss to build chain, and then survive (w/no hypers) for the 2nd half of the stage, generating points per kill based on the chain value?

Does this apply to Bomb style, since that's all I can play (and horribly difficult, cos every bomb kills my chain.)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:37 am 


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You're kind of right, though it depends on the stage. In most cases, if you find a good enough method for gathering hits, you can get an awesome chain going well before each stage's midboss.

The key to scoring is an invisible multiplier that I have no idea how/if anyone noticed without a guide. Basically, if your hit count is high enough (starting at 500 and capping out at 10,000), and you have have a full hyper gauge (but not currently using a hyper), each enemy you kill gives you points and hits as if you killed several of that enemy at once. For example, if you have a 1,000 hit chain going and you fill your hyper gauge, your multiplier is x3 and every enemy you kill will give you three times as many points and add three times as much to your Get Point value.


So what essentially happens is you cancel a shitton of bullets or counter a bunch of lasers to get your chain up to the thousands, and then from there you go to classic DDP chaining for the rest of the stage. :V
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:38 am 


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Skykid wrote:
On a final note, I'm correct in remembering general scoring in 1.5 revolves around hypering through to the midboss to build chain, and then survive (w/no hypers) for the 2nd half of the stage, generating points per kill based on the chain value?

Does this apply to Bomb style, since that's all I can play (and horribly difficult, cos every bomb kills my chain.)


I was getting confused by this game as well and wrote a short guide. Hopefully it can help you a bit as well: :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41097&start=28
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:52 am 


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Guys, that's perfect. Thanks so much for the help. Rancor, really respecting the brevity of that guide, you should do more in a similar vein.

Awesome thread btw. :D
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:59 am 


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Ok, first credit today and swiped a very dirty 1cc in the arcade. Should try playing for score next but it seems so pointless w/bomb style. Really need to get the staff to swap the board into a 4 button cab. :s
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:10 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
Ok, first credit today and swiped a very dirty 1cc in the arcade. Should try playing for score next but it seems so pointless w/bomb style. Really need to get the staff to swap the board into a 4 button cab. :s


Playing a 4 button game in a 3 button cab feels so odd, especially when you're not used to having to tap for rapid shot in a Cave game. :( Bomb style's actually pretty fun to play for survival though, because it feels more like the 'expected' shot power compared to Strong style (which I think actually had to be unlocked via a 1cc on the arcade?).
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:33 pm 


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Can't remember, was there a release of a limited and regular edition of 5pb's DDP Daioujou Black Label Extra?

Or is this it:
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-br- ... -3169.html
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:38 pm 


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Tyjet wrote:
Can't remember, was there a release of a limited and regular edition of 5pb's DDP Daioujou Black Label Extra?

Or is this it:
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-br- ... -3169.html


There wasn't a limited edition, but if you pre-ordered you got a strategy guide that was around ~20 pages.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:03 pm 


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rancor wrote:
There wasn't a limited edition, but if you pre-ordered you got a strategy guide that was around ~20 pages.


Shiz, I didn't get that (any spare Rancor?)

BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Playing a 4 button game in a 3 button cab feels so odd, especially when you're not used to having to tap for rapid shot in a Cave game.


Yes and yes - that's exactly it: I'm relegated to no auto-C, which can be problematic, but I still managed to fudge a clear out of it. I'm sure the staff know what I'm saying when I play charades over the number of buttons in the cab, but they're reluctant to shift the board. I think I'll just offer to buy it out of the cab instead and see if I can wangle a bargain. :idea:
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:02 pm 


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Right, I have another!

Capcom's Varth: is this game known to be bootlegged out the ass? The reason I'm wondering is because every arcade in the city here (China) seems to have a Varth, which is really weird. I'm assuming they're boots, and I was hoping Dave_K or someone might be able to clarify, but I've never seen one appear on the forums (when boots were allowed for sale).
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:59 pm 



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Out of those games which are the 2-3 easiest 1cc:
Battle Bakraid, Battle Garegga, Blazing star, Darius Gaiden, Dodonpachi, Dragon blaze, Espgaluda, Fever sos, giga wing, Rayforce, Progear, Mars matrix, Raiden, Raiden fighters jet, Sexy parodius, Shienryu, Strikers 1945 II and Viper phase 1

?

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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:06 pm 


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ESPGaluda, Darius Gaiden, Battle Bakraid. In that order.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:13 pm 


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Speaking of Espgaluda, and I feel like a total faggot for having to ask this: How do you get the extend item in stage 3?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:52 am 


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Giest118 wrote:
Speaking of Espgaluda, and I feel like a total faggot for having to ask this: How do you get the extend item in stage 3?

Oh, I think I know this one!

Pretty sure you have to not bomb, or not die. Towards the end of the stage there's a kind of sphere at the center. Go into Kakusei to attack it, and if you hit it enough (shouldn't take awfully long with Ageha) it pops the 1up.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... IVg#t=225s
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:34 am 


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Attempting a serious run of Gradius 5, should I be using check point restart, or the default continue system? Or are both fine?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:46 am 


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BPzeBanshee wrote:
Pretty sure you have to not bomb, or not die.

If memory serves it doesn't matter if you bomb/die when it comes to the 1Up in the first Galuda - you might be thinking of the sequel, which requires you to (IIRC) destroy all the bits of the mid-boss and not bomb or die from there to the 1Up. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, of course.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:56 am 


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trap15 wrote:
ESPGaluda, Darius Gaiden, Battle Bakraid. In that order.


Unless you're playing Bakraid's normal course, that one you can clear with only a couple of hours practice. ;)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:13 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
BPzeBanshee wrote:
Pretty sure you have to not bomb, or not die.

If memory serves it doesn't matter if you bomb/die when it comes to the 1Up in the first Galuda - you might be thinking of the sequel, which requires you to (IIRC) destroy all the bits of the mid-boss and not bomb or die from there to the 1Up. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, of course.


I remember dying and bombing accidentally in Galuda 1 and still being able to get the 1UP... whatever the case, definitely its requirements are far less strict than the sequel.

You're right about Espgaluda 2's requirements for the most part, except that you ARE allowed to die. Destroy the midboss parts, don't bomb, uncover with Kakusei Zesshikai. It's only if you bomb at all from the midboss to the 1UP that you lose out on the 1UP, which means if you get hit in Kakusei mode and you autobomb, the 1UP does not appear, whereas getting hit and simply dying will not cause the 1UP to vanish. Also, you have to be in Zesshikai mode to shoot and uncover the 1UP, simply being in the standard Kakusei mode will not allow you to shoot and uncover it.

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Attempting a serious run of Gradius 5, should I be using check point restart, or the default continue system? Or are both fine?


Checkpoints in shmups are strict and unforgiving, especially in Gradius where a death robs you of a lot of power. They're more 'classic' for the series, but the default for Gradius V is no checkpoints if I recall, even in Score Attack. I think they only keep the check point option in as a throwback to the older arcade titles, so don't feel any shame in not playing with checkpoints, they're honestly kinda lame as if you die once, you can end up losing all your lives just to that one section you have trouble with.
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Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:16 am 


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Thanks all. For some reason I had it in my head that the big propeller thing a little bit before that is what dropped the extend. >_>
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:20 am 


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BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Quote:
Attempting a serious run of Gradius 5, should I be using check point restart, or the default continue system? Or are both fine?


Checkpoints in shmups are strict and unforgiving, especially in Gradius where a death robs you of a lot of power. They're more 'classic' for the series, but the default for Gradius V is no checkpoints if I recall, even in Score Attack. I think they only keep the check point option in as a throwback to the older arcade titles, so don't feel any shame in not playing with checkpoints, they're honestly kinda lame as if you die once, you can end up losing all your lives just to that one section you have trouble with.


Games with check points often have significant opportunities for checkpoint milking - if off is the default, definitely don't turn it on as it unbalances scoring which I'm assuming you're trying to avoid.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:17 am 


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Gradius 5 also lets you grab the options when you die (without checkpoints), so I think of it as "Salamander style".
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:22 am 


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BareknuckleRoo wrote:
they're honestly kinda lame as if you die once, you can end up losing all your lives just to that one section you have trouble with.


Well, that's not uncommon for Gradius, since the really intense recoveries are a big part of what make Gradius Gradius. That being said, I'm not sure that the game was really designed with the standard check point system in mind. A lot of the later levels seem like they were really built around using your option control to hit things behind walls and whatnot, and since it's the default, I would probably think it's more legit (and more fun) to play it Salamander/Life Force style.

CStarFlare wrote:
BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Quote:
Attempting a serious run of Gradius 5, should I be using check point restart, or the default continue system? Or are both fine?


Checkpoints in shmups are strict and unforgiving, especially in Gradius where a death robs you of a lot of power. They're more 'classic' for the series, but the default for Gradius V is no checkpoints if I recall, even in Score Attack. I think they only keep the check point option in as a throwback to the older arcade titles, so don't feel any shame in not playing with checkpoints, they're honestly kinda lame as if you die once, you can end up losing all your lives just to that one section you have trouble with.


Games with check points often have significant opportunities for checkpoint milking - if off is the default, definitely don't turn it on as it unbalances scoring which I'm assuming you're trying to avoid.


Well, I wouldn't think it would be a game breaker for Gradius. Because the recoveries are like the number one cause of death, and since the game has unlimited loops, suiciding to milk bosses more is more likely to deprive you of lives you'll need in higher loops, or even just outright end your credit (both of these outcomes would probably result in a lower score also).

But yeah, I think default settings is the way to go.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:49 am 



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trap15 wrote:
ESPGaluda, Darius Gaiden, Battle Bakraid. In that order.


Thanks.
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