Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

This is the main shmups forum. Chat about shmups in here - keep it on-topic please!
cfx
Posts: 843
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:12 pm

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by cfx »

Seconding Playasia. Haven't bought US cards there, but have for other regions and it's been fine, and their costs I think are ok.
User avatar
Starfighter
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 7:15 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Starfighter »

Oh, nice! I didn't even think they had US cards as well. Thank you! :D

Edit: It's changed a lot I see, I remember when Play-asia was (almost?) exclusively aimed towards games, now it's more like another version of Yesasia.com. Well, I don't mind, but I must say I preferred the look of their older site. *becomes nostalgic*

Edit 2: No, a quick look in the waybackmachine showed me I remembered wrong, they have always had other stuff as well. But it was a nice walk down memory lane, so I took a couple of screenshots. Mmmm, fresh out of school, importing games and going to gamer meet-ups. Good times.

Image
User avatar
Nahar
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:23 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Nahar »

Regarding scores online and getting 1CC's, do you consider cheating changing the ship speed mid-game in titles that give you that option? I was thinking on Cyber Core for the PC Engine, where you can press Select to change the ship speed while playing.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BIL »

Nahar wrote:Regarding scores online and getting 1CC's, do you consider cheating changing the ship speed mid-game in titles that give you that option? I was thinking on Cyber Core for the PC Engine, where you can press Select to change the ship speed while playing.
I definitely wouldn't. There's also stuff like Eliminate Down and MUSHA Aleste (MD), where you literally have to pause the game to change your speed. Even there, it's a legitimate game mechanic - I don't see how anyone could call it cheating, without writing those games off entirely. As for stuff where you change speed during gameplay, even less so... that covers venerable titles like ImageFight, Thunder Force IV, and R-Type Delta. :smile: (it's even a means of rear attack in IF, and an amusing handful of others - the classic "booster burn" :cool:)

If we're talking not a basic speed-change command, but a hidden code/cheat that lets you alter your speed and other powerups, that's a bit different I'd say. I can't think of many games with that, outside of a couple home Gradiuses, like SFC III and V... and I know the latter disables that cheat in its High Score mode.
User avatar
Nahar
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:23 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Nahar »

Are we going to have a 20th "shmups of all time" thread this year?
Steven
Posts: 2874
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 5:24 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Nahar wrote:Are we going to have a 20th "shmups of all time" thread this year?
Nope. It's next year.
User avatar
To Far Away Times
Posts: 1661
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:42 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by To Far Away Times »

Dang. One of my favorite parts of the forum.
User avatar
jehu
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:15 am
Location: NYC

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by jehu »

In keeping with my goal of trying to clear Thunder Dragon 2 this year - a question:

The question concerns those instances where the missile-dropping enemies enter the screen in sequence, requiring you to blow them all up to get a 50K bonus. Beginning of St. 6, for example.

What determines when they turn to exit the screen? Is it: when they first take damage they can turn around to leave? Sometimes finishing the sequence and getting the bonus is quite easy, and other times the enemies leave so quickly, it looks just about impossible.

If there's a TD2 guide anywhere, I would kill for it. I've seen a Japanese superplay floating around with Japanese comments on the margin, but it's inaccessible to me. Any other good resources out there, or should I resign myself to playing copymonkey with the replays?

(Also, I would be down to assist with the Top 25 STGs poll this (or next) year. The statistical analysis might be best left to someone with expertise, but I'd volunteer some time to take care of a few things organizationally. Not sure exactly who to talk to about it, but LMK if I can help.)
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BIL »

I've wondered about that too. Sometimes I'll bomb the little buggers and think "I didn't need to..." only to try again and completely fuck it up. :lol:

On the off-chance you've not seen it, here's a helpful GD thread. trap15 would be the guy to ask about specifics, along with the other contributors there.

It's a brilliant game, and a superbly self-contained 1CC/score target, too, with its single nails-hard loop. :smile:
User avatar
Rastan78
Posts: 1964
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:08 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Rastan78 »

Yeah sometimes those little bastards just run away. I don't know and am not near a console to test. Although Darius Gaiden has an enemy type that's very similar and it turns out to be proximity based. They get a certain distance from your horizontal position and then loop away. So if you're close to the screen edge it's almost impossible to clean up the wave bonus. Draw back to at least about mid screen and you can get them.

That's just one possibility I'd test. Firing up a save state and experimenting with various screen positioning and firing/not should clear things up.

If you sit there not firing notice whether they track your position or go to a predetermined fixed point. Do they ram you or turn around first? Sorry if that's not an actual answer lol
User avatar
To Far Away Times
Posts: 1661
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:42 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by To Far Away Times »

Does anyone know how randomness is determined in Sengoku Ace? I found something weird. I save stated right before the random end boss in stage four. If I continue playing as normal, I always get the left one, if I bomb, I always get the right one.

I wonder if there's a way to manipulate it in a real run? I'd always like to get the left one, if possible.

Edit: weird... I played in to later levels and saved some more save states. I went back to this save state and now I only get the left boss no matter what I do.
Last edited by To Far Away Times on Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Rastan78
Posts: 1964
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:08 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Rastan78 »

@jehu Got a chance to test it out. Yeah if you damage them they drop their missiles and turn around. Otherwise they descend to a fixed point then drop them. Fortunately their spawn pattern is completely predictable so it's just a matter of memorization of the sequence and being in the right spot ahead of time.

For one that is about to get away, like if it's the last one in the wave and you can't preemptively shoot it just as it comes on screen, then after it fires move up and around the missiles so your shots can reach it before it's gone.
User avatar
jehu
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:15 am
Location: NYC

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by jehu »

Rastan78 wrote:@jehu Got a chance to test it out. Yeah if you damage them they drop their missiles and turn around. Otherwise they descend to a fixed point then drop them. Fortunately their spawn pattern is completely predictable so it's just a matter of memorization of the sequence and being in the right spot ahead of time.

For one that is about to get away, like if it's the last one in the wave and you can't preemptively shoot it just as it comes on screen, then after it fires move up and around the missiles so your shots can reach it before it's gone.
Thanks for checking it out, Rastan. I figured as much. Containing the ship's fire is a little tricky with P1 due to the spread and the sometimes delayed launch of its missiles. Like you said, memo is key. I'm seeing that staying relatively high on screen - both to concentrate fire for quick kills and to contain the spread of bullets before they go off the screen - seems key, too. That, and your tip on vaulting over the missiles on the last enemy in the wave is very important.

I'm glad some information is floating around out there, but this is a game that would really benefit from a well-written English wiki. If I get deep enough into the game and can say enough with authority, maybe it'll be something I'll work on.
Steven
Posts: 2874
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 5:24 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

I absolutely do not understand the Hishouzame secret on Out Zone stage 2. I have been sitting here with this thing https://shmups.wiki/library/OutZone/Strategy#Stage_2

and reloading a save state for almost an hour trying to get this to work and I still have not figured it out yet. My score is 165920 before I cross the first track. I pick up the C (which brings my score to 166020, which I disregard, right), shoot trees 5, 9, and 2, and then nothing happens. What am I doing wrong?

I watched this Mikado stream and he explains how to do it here and he does it, but I do the same thing and I get absolutely nothing. https://youtu.be/LvhKEbGCXYI?t=284

Well... I tried it on the MiSTer for like 20 minutes and got nothing. I tried it for like an hour on the Astro City Mini V and got nothing. Then I tried it on my PCB and it worked on the first time. WTF. Oh well.

Alright, then I cycled the power on my cabinet and then it didn't work again. Do I need to be standing in a specific spot or something? I have absolutely no idea at this point. Fuck it, I'm just going to ask Uemura-san today and see if he knows.
Randorama
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Randorama »

I must have asked this question several times over the years...

easiest Arcade version of Darius, and easiest route?
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
User avatar
BIL
Posts: 18989
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: COLONY

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BIL »

ACSeraph and Prickly Angler are the guys I'd ask, esteemed space ichthyologists both. Image
Prickly Angler
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:46 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Prickly Angler »

Hi Randorama

The easiest version of original Darius is New. In my opinion the easiest routes are ABDGKQV or ABDHMRX. ABDHMRX has much a easier final stage and boss, but the middle of the route is harder :wink:
Randorama
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Randorama »

Hello folks, thanks for the feedback!
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
Technicolor
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 11:01 pm

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Technicolor »

How much randomness do you guys like in your shmups? Is there any kind of meaningful metric for that?

If you could have separate set seed leaderboards in games with a lot of randomness, would you want them?
User avatar
Lethe
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:49 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Lethe »

Existing thread on shmup randomness
Visible seeding is an interesting idea, don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.
Steven
Posts: 2874
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 5:24 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Strikers random stage order can go to hell.
Technicolor
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 11:01 pm

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Technicolor »

Lethe wrote:Existing thread on shmup randomness
Visible seeding is an interesting idea, don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

Thanks for the link, I’ll give it a read!


As for seeding, I feel like the main hurdles would be:
- Verifying which runs do or don’t use the seeding
- Making sure that the optimal seed is still fun


Maybe the latter isn’t as big a priority if a developer were to approach it as a “quick-and-dirty” deal, but even just using aimed bullets smartly could help prevent safespots from suddenly opening all over the game like swiss cheese. Then again, maybe that’s it’s own selling point? :lol:
User avatar
Aceskies
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:45 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Aceskies »

I am currently trying to 1cc Akai Katana in Switch. I am able to reach stage 5 consistently, but I have some questions due to (I think) lack of experience. This is my first CAVE-like game, besides Deathsmiles which I have only played casually. So I find some difficulty spikes that maybe are related with my mindset.

For example whenever I find a bunch of very close fast bullets (such as those from the 5 boss) which are technically micro-dodgeable, I feel uncapable of doing it and go to macrododging, sometimes getting hit because there is not a lot of room to dodge. I dont know if I should try to get better at this micrododging, especially if I dont have phantom mode available (which slows closer bullets) because thats what I see in some replays. But I feel like this game is not designed to do that. I usually get cornered because I try to macrododge these clusters of microbullets.

Also worth mentioning that I am trying to get a decent score. So I use the game mechanlcs to do that whenever possible, although not taking huge risks. I do that because its fun to me, but maybe its making the 1cc harder and I'll burn out. What should I do?
User avatar
Strikers1945guy
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:53 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Strikers1945guy »

If you just want the clear I’d completely throw away scoring until you get the clear.
Also worth noting the switch version for Akai katana has something like 5-6 frames of input lag that could also be hindering you
Beyond that watch a few videos online if spots are troubling you and practice practice practice
Mister Midnight wrote:btw, cant trust them Koreans; remember Pearl Harbor
User avatar
Nahar
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:23 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Nahar »

Technicolor wrote:How much randomness do you guys like in your shmups? Is there any kind of meaningful metric for that?

If you could have separate set seed leaderboards in games with a lot of randomness, would you want them?
I do not like very much RNG; not only in shmups, but I don't find randomness very fun at all even in boardgames or in strategy games (the other genre I usually play).
User avatar
Nahar
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:23 am

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Nahar »

What do you folks do when you get frustrated after f***ing up a good run?

I was doing a very very nice run of ZeroRanger but I burnt 5 lives (!) at the train section in 2-3. I was having a blast but I got a bit frustrated after that. I decided not to play after that game because I fear I will get more frustrated and do worse, but on the other hand I feel like I'm not practicing enough.

Any tips?
User avatar
Lander
Posts: 848
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:15 pm
Location: Area 1 Mostly

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Lander »

Technicolor wrote:How much randomness do you guys like in your shmups? Is there any kind of meaningful metric for that?

If you could have separate set seed leaderboards in games with a lot of randomness, would you want them?
Determinism (non-randomness) is all-important in my mind, so yeah I'd take fixed-seed leaderboards if they were an option.

There are different ways of measuring and codifying it, but I don't think there's one definitive metric since there are many ways you can implement an RNG algorithm (true random, seeded pseudorandom, perceptually random cause-and-effect, etc), on top of various ways it can be used in-game (spawn types, timings, bullet trajectories, procedural elements, and so on).
Nahar wrote:What do you folks do when you get frustrated after f***ing up a good run?

I was doing a very very nice run of ZeroRanger but I burnt 5 lives (!) at the train section in 2-3. I was having a blast but I got a bit frustrated after that. I decided not to play after that game because I fear I will get more frustrated and do worse, but on the other hand I feel like I'm not practicing enough.

Any tips?
I'd try to get back on the horse sooner rather than later and de-escalate the frustration to the point where it doesn't jeapordize your desire to come back. Maybe go in with a different set of goals that are orthogonal to getting frustrated at losing a run; i.e. section practice, experimentation, or just a fun credit feed run to keep it fresh in your mind.
User avatar
ACSeraph
Posts: 2724
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:00 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by ACSeraph »

Prickly Angler wrote:Hi Randorama

The easiest version of original Darius is New. In my opinion the easiest routes are ABDGKQV or ABDHMRX. ABDHMRX has much a easier final stage and boss, but the middle of the route is harder :wink:
Seconding this. My vote goes to the X route personally, but V is quite easy as well.
<STG.1cc> 死ぬがよい <ACT.1cc>
Image
Technicolor
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 11:01 pm

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Technicolor »

What makes Pocky and Rocky a shmup rather than a run n’ gun? The stages seem set up in a manner similar to shmups, but I’m not familiar with run n’ guns and whether that’s typical for the top-down variety in that era. Does the stage timer play a role in this as well? Or is there something else I’m missing?
User avatar
BareKnuckleRoo
Posts: 6162
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:01 am
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Technicolor wrote:What makes Pocky and Rocky a shmup rather than a run n’ gun? The stages seem set up in a manner similar to shmups, but I’m not familiar with run n’ guns and whether that’s typical for the top-down variety in that era. Does the stage timer play a role in this as well? Or is there something else I’m missing?
Run 'n guns are generally defined by the presence of jumping and gravity. The movement in them is completely different from a shmup where you move along a flat 2D surface with full freedom where you are. The fact that you can control how fast the screen scrolls doesn't change that it's a shmup (which is sometimes called "push scrolling").

In games like Contra, Metal Slug, Gunstar Heroes, etc, the fact that you are moving left and right and cannot hover in the air freely, having to jump to evade projectiles, is what makes it control very differently from a shmup.

We do love run 'n guns here, which isn't surprising given they often have many similar elements, and there's a massive discussion thread here: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=45206
Spoiler
Also be sure to check out the game REDPULSE made by a forum-goer which has dashing, very floaty jumps with quick landing tech, and enemy attacks that are bullet hell. It's a run 'n gun with a bullet hell shmup vibe, very cool: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.p ... 6#p1386826

Nahar wrote:I was doing a very very nice run of ZeroRanger but I burnt 5 lives (!) at the train section in 2-3. I was having a blast but I got a bit frustrated after that. I decided not to play after that game because I fear I will get more frustrated and do worse, but on the other hand I feel like I'm not practicing enough.

Any tips?
It's sometimes handy to take a break for a few days or even a week, and come back to the game. You'll likely be able to approach the game feeling fresh and renewed, and you'll have given some of that practice some time to sink in without the frustration and pressure of feeling like you have to play it every single day repeatedly. Obviously you want to find a good balance and don't wait too long to return to the game, or you might feel a bit out of practice.
Post Reply