Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

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Sumez
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Sumez »

Fwiw Pocky and Rocky is absolutely a run n gun in my book XD
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Am I the only person that has little interest in scoring systems that are more complex than "kill shit to get points" or maybe "pick up the stuff the enemies dropped when they died"? I played Saidaioujou a few days ago and I just can't be bothered to learn how the scoring system works. I don't really care about chaining or whatever at all; I just want to blow shit up.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Stevens »

No. You are far from alone.

Not that I haven't put time into games with complex scoring, but I prefer the simple see shit, shoot shit, shit go boom. And then maybe collect stuff here and there.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BulletMagnet »

IMO the best shooters are the ones that do have depth to the scoring system and thus encourage playing at least somewhat counter-intuitively to rack up the most points, but are still just as fun to run through while ignoring all of it and focusing on, as you say, blowing stuff up. This not only offers both pros and more casual players something to like, but more vitally easily allows those in the middle, looking to dip a toe into deeper waters, to take things at their own pace as they get more familiar and comfortable with the game's more esoteric elements. At least for me, nothing feels better-crafted than a game, shmup or otherwise, you can immediately jump into and be effortlessly guided along by, no FAQ needed, until you feel like you've mastered it.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

BulletMagnet wrote:IMO the best shooters are the ones that do have depth to the scoring system and thus encourage playing at least somewhat counter-intuitively to rack up the most points, but are still just as fun to run through while ignoring all of it and focusing on, as you say, blowing stuff up. This not only offers both pros and more casual players something to like, but more vitally easily allows those in the middle, looking to dip a toe into deeper waters, to take things at their own pace as they get more familiar and comfortable with the game's more esoteric elements. At least for me, nothing feels better-crafted than a game, shmup or otherwise, you can immediately jump into and be effortlessly guided along by, no FAQ needed, until you feel like you've mastered it.
So basically Slap Fight is perfect? I mean, we all already know that Slap Fight is perfect, but yeah. That's my favourite scoring system by far, and the only one that I find interesting/engaging/fun/etc., and I don't know why. I suppose it's a little more involved than simply killing things or picking up stuff, although you do get points for both of those as usual, but I think it's mostly just because it gives me an excuse to try all of the fun weapons or something, which of course goes back to the simple fun of blowing stuff up in the game.

I don't really think about most scoring systems. They are there and I use them without thinking about it. They are not fun, interesting, boring, annoying, or anything else. They simply exist. Then I try some CAVE game and I'm like WTF am I even supposed to do in this game? I don't know.

Actually, this might make an interesting topic. Maybe I'll go make a topic for it in a little while.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Aceskies »

Which games do you consider to have a complex score system? A simple chain mechanism is already complex?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Anything more involved than simply killing shit and picking up dropped items is complex. Saidaioujou also has more than just a simple chaining system, as you have to figure out when to use your hyper and the shotlaser in the 360 mode and all of that and I really don't want to deal with all of that thinking. I just want to kill shit and that's it.

It isn't just CAVE games, either; like I have no fucking clue what I'm supposed to do to get huge scores in Crimzon Clover, so I don't bother. I just shoot things, use the lock on thingy to kill things, and if I get a good score, or not, that's just how it is.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Lethe »

Steven, do you have any experience with Our Jive And Savior Dangun Feveron? Dead simple yet experience-essential scoring that will bombard you with annoying sound effects if you dare ignore it; a direct step up from the Thunder Dragon 2 "always have something to do" design principle. And simultaneously it's the most unCavey Cave game ever.
Steven wrote:It isn't just CAVE games
Steven wrote:Crimzon Clover
???
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by steveovig »

Does the Switch Graze Counter have online leaderboards? I'll still probably buy the game since I love the demo and the sale price is great. I love most buzzing games.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Lethe wrote:Steven, do you have any experience with Our Jive And Savior Dangun Feveron? Dead simple yet experience-essential scoring that will bombard you with annoying sound effects if you dare ignore it; a direct step up from the Thunder Dragon 2 "always have something to do" design principle. And simultaneously it's the most unCavey Cave game ever.
Not yet. I have heard it's very Toa-like for a CAVE game, so I'm hoping to try Dangun Feveron very soon. I'm missing half of the M2 ShotTriggers games, including Dangun Feveron, but I'll put it at the top of the priority list for those, especially since it seems that M2 still hasn't done the Ketsui reprint they announced last year as far as I can tell. PS4 Ketsui is getting quite expensive, unfortunately; I should have bought it when it was obtainable at MSRP, even from resellers on Amazon, but too late now.
Lethe wrote:
Steven wrote:It isn't just CAVE games
Steven wrote:Crimzon Clover
???
Well, it wasn't made by CAVE, so...

While I am here, what is the best Raiden game that is not Raiden DX?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Randorama »

Prickly Angler:

...do we have a Darius thread, somewhere? I feel like it is a pity that I am asking these questions in this thread. Said this:

1. I am finding the A-B-D-G-K-Q-W route (P? the one leading to Coronatus) manageable. Is it worth it upgrading to laser, on this route? (I imagine not):
2. Green Coronatus: I understand that in this fight there is a safe spot that allows players to kill the boss within seconds, untouched, but I cannot seem to find consistently. Could explain a bit what I should do? (I am firewalled, so text or images are OK; youtube is not).

Sorry for the hassle and thanks in advance (also to anyone who'd like to help, of course).
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by xxx1993 »

Steven wrote: While I am here, what is the best Raiden game that is not Raiden DX?
I'm a fan of the entire series (though I'm mixed on the first game).
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by OmegaFlareX »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Run 'n guns are generally defined by the presence of jumping and gravity.
Only the horizontal ones, but not always (see In The Hunt). Vert run-n-guns (Commando, Jackal, Ikari, OutZone, Kikikaikai) don't usually have that.

I think it'd be better to say RnG's defining feature is push-scrolling, since that covers both H and V. And maybe multi-directional aiming?
Steven wrote:While I am here, what is the best Raiden game that is not Raiden DX?
Viper Phase 1 New Version
Raiden Fighters 1/2/Jet

You should look into acquiring a SPI board.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Stevens »

BulletMagnet wrote:IMO the best shooters are the ones that do have depth to the scoring system and thus encourage playing at least somewhat counter-intuitively to rack up the most points, but are still just as fun to run through while ignoring all of it and focusing on, as you say, blowing stuff up. This not only offers both pros and more casual players something to like, but more vitally easily allows those in the middle, looking to dip a toe into deeper waters, to take things at their own pace as they get more familiar and comfortable with the game's more esoteric elements. At least for me, nothing feels better-crafted than a game, shmup or otherwise, you can immediately jump into and be effortlessly guided along by, no FAQ needed, until you feel like you've mastered it.
You make a good point. The only game I've ever scored well is Under Defeat, but I didn't start playing it to score it. I just started playing it cause I thought it was cool and wanted to clear it. Eventually though I decided I wanted to score it - and yeah that is when things considerably, but I still really enjoyed it.

tldr - Don't get into a game with the intention of scoring it. If you like the game enough you'll get there organically. Getting into a game to score it is not a recipe for long term enjoyment.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

OmegaFlareX wrote:Only the horizontal ones, but not always (see In The Hunt). Vert run-n-guns (Commando, Jackal, Ikari, OutZone, Kikikaikai) don't usually have that.
All of those games you've listed are push-scrolling shoot 'em ups. You're moving freely along the X and Y axis on the playing field. Run 'n guns are 2D games where you're planted on the ground and are subject to gravity instead of hovering over the playing field. Even shmups that have some jumping like Firepower 2000 when using the Jeep (where you jump over pits, lava, etc) still have conventional shmup dodging in terms of how you move to evade shots, whereas in a run 'n gun, the fact that you can only adjust your Y axis by jumping changes things significantly.

Fixed-screen top down games like Smash TV would also be classified as shmups. There's no screen scrolling, but you still have freedom of movement across the X and Y axis which radically alters how the game plays.

They have a lot of mechanical similarities, but the difference is in the nuances.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by cfx »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
OmegaFlareX wrote:Only the horizontal ones, but not always (see In The Hunt). Vert run-n-guns (Commando, Jackal, Ikari, OutZone, Kikikaikai) don't usually have that.
All of those games you've listed are push-scrolling shoot 'em ups. You're moving freely along the X and Y axis on the playing field. Run 'n guns are 2D games where you're planted on the ground and are subject to gravity instead of hovering over the playing field. Even shmups that have some jumping like Firepower 2000 when using the Jeep (where you jump over pits, lava, etc) still have conventional shmup dodging in terms of how you move to evade shots, whereas in a run 'n gun, the fact that you can only adjust your Y axis by jumping changes things significantly.

Fixed-screen top down games like Smash TV would also be classified as shmups. There's no screen scrolling, but you still have freedom of movement across the X and Y axis which radically alters how the game plays.

They have a lot of mechanical similarities, but the difference is in the nuances.
Exactly; I was about to post the same thing before reading your response.

I've never before heard anyone refer to those games as run-n-guns.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

OmegaFlareX wrote:You should look into acquiring a SPI board.
Yeah, that is an interesting idea. I've been searching locally for a Raiden DX PCB for a few months now with no success. I don't even know how much they cost since I've never seen one for sale. Might as well try to see if I can get the SPI if I can't find DX, as I've heard good things about the Raiden Fighters series and Viper Phase 1. tops-game.jp has all of the games and the board itself right now, but those guys overprice all of their stuff by a decent amount.

Since I am here, I might as well ask another random-ass question. What does everyone think of Saidaioujou? I've been playing the novice mode on the 360 version and the 360 mode for a few days now and I'm not sure what I think of the game, although I don't really like the 360 mode that much. I'd like to try using Saya outside of the 360 mode, but I only have like half the amount of coins that I need and the game doesn't really like giving them out. I kind of want to try for the novice mode 1CC or the 360 mode no miss, but my performance has been extremely inconsistent for some reason.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Technicolor »

It looks like I’ve sparked one of these discussions… should I consider this some kind of rite of passage…?


Well, anyway. Might as well have fun with it. I can sorta guess where everyone falls already, but Suwapyon— shmup or run n’ gun?

Aceskies wrote:Which games do you consider to have a complex score system? A simple chain mechanism is already complex?

Well, it’s generally accepted around here that chaining brings a lot of emergent complexity, right? Which would mean there’s now a pretty sizable dimension to think about outside of shooting and dodging. So maybe complexity is the wrong metric, rather than how much a scoring system changes your behavior from what it’d be if you were just playing for survival without it.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by llaoyllakcuf »

Steven wrote:I've been searching locally for a Raiden DX PCB for a few months now with no success. I don't even know how much they cost since I've never seen one for sale.
These were the last couple of boards that sold on Yahoo! Japan:

Dec 2022 - https://archive.ph/PlH56
Oct 2022 - https://archive.ph/SCaVO

Both for about the same amount. The non-Japanese versions of this game appear for sale on various arcade forums once in a while for nearly half the price.

Just one of those PCBs that's in high demand like Batrider or most CAVE titles.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

That's about half the price I expected but still out of my price range. I wish they'd release this game on ACA or PC or something, especially since the original Raiden is already on ACA and MOSS generally seems to be good about getting at least some games on PC.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Technicolor »

I seem to have gotten MAME working. Regarding Dodonpachi, what are the differences between versions that I should know about? I currently have the “World, 1997 2/5 Master version” downloaded.

As it is, there are a lot of fun-looking settings in the service menu… extends at every 10 million points seems tempting to me, but I’m going to start with autofire and all other settings default for now.


UPDATE:
Managed to 1cc into stage 4 with type-A shot version, little proud of that since people seem to call the stage 3 boss a wall. (I needed a few bombs for sure!) Ended up with an… I think a 7 or 8cc all told? I probably would’ve used a credit or two less if I hadn’t accidentally switched to type-B partway through the last stage. Cool option, but uh, woof. Did not know it was there and it tilted me out of my mind.


So how should I go about routing from here? My current thinking is that I’ll do a “garbage run” that suicides the last life on each boss and kills them immediately after, so I can get a savestate for the start of each stage with full life and bomb stock. Does that sound like a good idea? How much would the changes in rank complicate this? I’m having a lot of fun just jumping in and playing here, so I wanna practice in a way that retains that fun.


In the meantime, since my experience up to now has mostly been Touhou, some initial comparisons:
- The game definitely feels more fast-paced and “active.” I read in another thread earlier that Touhou doesn’t really emphasize enemy killing very much; knowing what to look for, I can definitely feel that here. Though the difference is subtle to my inexperienced mind.
- With my standards set by the focus button, the laser system feels weird. Not bad? But definitely weird. I have to anticipate when to laser even more than I do with bombing, which is its own kind of cool, and I might actually be a bit better-suited to it since I’m definitely better at strategy than execution right now. Current plan from here is to use shot in stages until enemies get overwhelming, then switch to laser preemptively.
- Getting a handle on the two different bombs is a bit of a bitch. I kept accidentally using the laser bomb in the stages. Having a basic game plan should help though.
- I’d very much like to know whether type-A shot version deals more damage with the shot than the laser, with and without pointblank aura. They definitely seem like my preferred ship with how fast they are… I might give type-C another go, but that one feels like wading through sludge even without lasering.
- Extend every 10 million points is a lot less tempting now.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Watch Jaimers' run (non-Japanese world record as of right now, I believe) and be sure to turn the captions on and read them. Now just copy it perfectly and you'll be looking at a non-Japanese world record-class score!

https://youtu.be/_nh_11rOb8E
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Atariboy »

I got the 8BitDo arcade stick recently and was wondering what the best way was to connect it with my Switch. Has anyone done lag test on Switch comparing connecting directly via Bluetooth or plugging in the included 2.4g USB receiver into the dock?

Normally I'd automatically go 2.4g since it's faster on 8BitDo products, but I have the impression from casually paying attention to threads here that the Switch is a bit strange in that connecting via Bluetooth generally has less latency than going wired via USB.

That seems counterintuitive which leaves me unsure if going 2.4g into one of the dock's USB ports actually is going to be beneficial compared to connecting directly via Bluetooth and avoiding the system's apparently laggy USB interface entirely?

I'm not a highly skilled shmups player and don't find that I'm super sensitive to input lag outside of the most atrocious situations, or I'd just compare the two wireless methods myself. But if one is a bit better than the other, I may as well connect that way when I have both options available to me (Plus I'm simply curious and was wondering which of the two had less latency).
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Probably not the best place to ask, but I will anyway; for Xbox 360, I have been playing using a regular wireless Xbox 360 controller with the wired connector thingy since I am too cheap and lazy to go buy batteries for it. Does having the actual wired version make a difference?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Nahar »

Atariboy wrote:I got the 8BitDo arcade stick recently and was wondering what the best way was to connect it with my Switch. Has anyone done lag test on Switch comparing connecting directly via Bluetooth or plugging in the included 2.4g USB receiver into the dock?

Normally I'd automatically go 2.4g since it's faster on 8BitDo products, but I have the impression from casually paying attention to threads here that the Switch is a bit strange in that connecting via Bluetooth generally has less latency than going wired via USB.

That seems counterintuitive which leaves me unsure if going 2.4g into one of the dock's USB ports actually is going to be beneficial compared to connecting directly via Bluetooth and avoiding the system's apparently laggy USB interface entirely?

I'm not a highly skilled shmups player and don't find that I'm super sensitive to input lag outside of the most atrocious situations, or I'd just compare the two wireless methods myself. But if one is a bit better than the other, I may as well connect that way when I have both options available to me (Plus I'm simply curious and was wondering which of the two had less latency).

I've got the same stick and I say go with the 2.4G all the way, but take note: I play on pc and xbox only.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Steven »

Uh... why the hell is the text in the DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu Steam trailer written in Aurebesh?
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

Steven wrote:Uh... why the hell is the text in the DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu Steam trailer written in Aurebesh?
I'll ask the Mongols from TFVI.
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Post by BIL »

Probably the same reason Tecmo's early Cabalesque Senjyou references the Battle of Hoth score. :wink: For all his foibles, That Bitch Lucas was the Beatles of global nerd shit.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by Lander »

Steven wrote:Probably not the best place to ask, but I will anyway; for Xbox 360, I have been playing using a regular wireless Xbox 360 controller with the wired connector thingy since I am too cheap and lazy to go buy batteries for it. Does having the actual wired version make a difference?
Casting my mind back, I believe the connector thingy is power-only, so all inputs will still be going over the 2.4Ghz. Case in point, the thingy can't be used to connect a wireless pad to a PC; you need to buy the adapter dongle to actually use it as a pad.

I recall switching to a wired pad at some point late in my 360's life and experiencing a noticeable change in responsiveness, though that was before I truly understood latency so take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Technicolor wrote:I can sorta guess where everyone falls already, but Suwapyon— shmup or run n’ gun?
It's a shmup, with jumping as an option to dodge. Things still autoscroll, you're still moving across the X and Y axis freely, just with a jump along the Z axis as a limited movement, dodge option. It kinda blurs the lines a bit but still is firmly in shmup territory.

If you want an example of a game that blurs the lines more, being more of a run 'n gun with some shmup elements, see something like Wolf Fang: Kuuga 2001. It's a run 'n gun in the sense that it handles much like Contra does in terms of movement and aiming, but it has several sections where you skate along an angled ledge that allows you to move like a shmup (with gravity pulling you down slightly, requiring adjustments), there's an underwater stage that handles much like a shmup, it has a recharging bomb (though Dolphin Blue also has something like that).

Technicolor wrote:I seem to have gotten MAME working. Regarding Dodonpachi, what are the differences between versions that I should know about? I currently have the “World, 1997 2/5 Master version” downloaded.
The Japanese version is the accepted one. The World version is slightly easier, and I think is a bit easier to trigger the 1UP? It's not a tremendous difference like how Donpachi's Japan, USA, and Hong Kong revisions differ.

but I’m going to start with autofire and all other settings default for now.
Yeah, there's no reason not to use autofire. It's the expected norm in an arcade for it to be on and the game is certainly no easier having it on (it just strains your finger less!).

accidentally switched to type-B partway through the last stage. Cool option, but uh, woof. Did not know it was there and it tilted me out of my mind.
Go little green heli! You lose a slight bit of movement speed for way more spread and better close range damage.

I’m having a lot of fun just jumping in and playing here, so I wanna practice in a way that retains that fun.
I recommend not leaning too much on savestates. You also have to build up the endurance to do full runs, so it's good to regularly do those too.

- The game definitely feels more fast-paced and “active.” I read in another thread earlier that Touhou doesn’t really emphasize enemy killing very much; knowing what to look for, I can definitely feel that here. Though the difference is subtle to my inexperienced mind.
The big differences are in the presence of grounded enemies (which makes it better than Touhou imo) and how the focus button works (Touhou's faster response is better here, Dodonpachi DFK actually has that kind of shot to laser speed though). Be aware that unlike most Touhou games, your shot damage especially when playing as A-S, B-S, or C-S is very capable of killing even larger enemies quite quickly. B-S in particular can sail through stages rarely needing to use the laser (particularly large enemies or the bosses mainly).

- Getting a handle on the two different bombs is a bit of a bitch. I kept accidentally using the laser bomb in the stages. Having a basic game plan should help though.
This is something that was also present in at least a few Touhou games, namely PCB and IN. The rule of thumb is use the shot bomb in stages and the laser bomb on bosses. Really though, either bomb will give you plenty of damage and safety to wipe the screen of enemies in stages, and it's only on bosses where the laser bomb's much higher damage is critical on bosses.

- I’d very much like to know whether type-A shot version deals more damage with the shot than the laser, with and without pointblank aura.


No ships in the series deal more damage with the shot over the laser except for Type B in Donpachi when using rapidfire. In that game, Type B's shot damage can match or slightly exceed its laser damage, except on bosses where you get a damage bonus from using laser (and using the laser aura is still way stronger due to it being like 2x laser damage).

In DDP, you'll find when using a Shot type ship that it's better to use the rapid shots to clear the screen mainly because the laser can't punch through small targets. It's not just the damage that affects screen clearing, and the Laser type ships all can punch through small enemies with their respective lasers. Laser type ships also get a slight boost in damage to the laser, but it's not a tremendous amount (Shot type ships are better for survival if learning a 1 loop clear, the stronger laser damage makes Laser types way better for a 2 loop clear due to the very nasty TLB that can't be bombed to death).

B-S and C-S are both quite fast in Dodonpachi compared to Donpachi. If you like Type A's speed but want more spread, consider Type B. If the wiggly options are throwing you off, you can also rhythmically tap and hold the laser briefly to recenter them, letting you move while firing forward.
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