Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

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Shepardus
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Shepardus »

Except for Expert mode, the hitbox is relatively large for a bullet hell game (6x6 pixels I think?). I've heard the 360 port has some input lag too.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Bananamatic »

"some"
yeah, the port is ass and the controls are horrible, it's not just you
the hitbox is large but it's better than the 2 pixel fraud hitbox where you have to run through bullets 5 times to finally die
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finisherr
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by finisherr »

I ended up getting a clear with A-Shot. Game is quite fun if you're a survival player like myself.
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PROMETHEUS
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by PROMETHEUS »

Bananamatic wrote:the hitbox is large but it's better than the 2 pixel fraud hitbox where you have to run through bullets 5 times to finally die
I really agree with that, I think that in DOJ for example the hitbox feels a little too small, in DDP its better (feels more "balanced") and in SDOJ I also like the size of hitbox and bullet hitboxes too. However in SDOJ I am not very convinced by chaining and scoring system.

imo maybe the very small hitbox is better for games with slower but higher density patterns or slower more numerous bullets, sometimes its too much and it feels like you almost need bad luck to get hit or occasionally some patterns are so fast and dense that you rely on some luck to dodge.... or its just about cancelling the whole thing anyway^^

that said i always love playing futari for example.. it really depends on the balance of patterns and hitboxes of bullets and all the rest. eh maybe futari would be even better with bit larger hitbox + retuning. or with less cancel and more slow crazy high density patterns. actually iirc there is actually hitbox size difference in futari between original and other modes @@
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Bananamatic
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Bananamatic »

PROMETHEUS wrote:in SDOJ I also like the size of hitbox and bullet hitboxes too. However in SDOJ I am not very convinced by chaining and scoring system.
it's not a chaining system, the chaining is an absolute joke and it's mostly hard to even drop the chain as long as you're shooting

basically most of the GP value comes from the large stars which you get from bullet cancels and activating a lv6+ hyper, not from killing enemies like in ddp/doj/dfk, plus having a hyper active also multiplies your GP value (up to x3 with a level 10)
merely chaining gives you almost no score, you're meant to get max cancels and activate high level hypers to maximize large stars, plus recharging your hyper with those stars to keep the high level hyper chain going like in deathsmiles

the rank only increases bullet speed, not density, which means less bullets on screen which means less scoring from cancels if your rank is high

scoring makes you score less and outside of stage 5 and stage 3 on expert (only at WR level), the other stages aren't long enough to make using your hyper ever worth it (and stage 4 has no cancels outside of the midboss, making scoring impossible)
when it comes to scoring, it's futari ultra's retarded cousin, not a dodonpachi game
and futari ultra is already a dumb game
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PROMETHEUS
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by PROMETHEUS »

yeah it seems like it doesn't compare to the best DDPs in core important aspects
just the stage imbalance is huge but then all the rest, doesnt make me want to play it for score at all
it's difficult to enjoy another DDP with a fake chaining system like this, the chaining is a huge part of the depth and tension of DDPs, in how finely tuned it is, offers alternatives, rewards small details, diversity and complexity of stages.. this is where a lot of the fun and the skill is while all the dodging is also going on

i dont think futari ultra is that bad though, in my mind its main flaw is counterstop? i haven't played it that much though I cant play it at home
I guess futari ultra relies too heavily on memorizing, and because of counterstop sometimes you wouldn't take that much risk. Or at some points the difficulty spikes are huge, even borderline random i heard. Too much cancelling? i don't know, but futari maniac and god mode are really fun to play imo. I wouldn't say perfect, but really good and interesting.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Bananamatic »

PROMETHEUS wrote: i dont think futari ultra is that bad though, in my mind its main flaw is counterstop? i haven't played it that much though I cant play it at home
I guess futari ultra relies too heavily on memorizing, and because of counterstop sometimes you wouldn't take that much risk. Or at some points the difficulty spikes are huge, even borderline random i heard. Too much cancelling? i don't know, but futari maniac and god mode are really fun to play imo. I wouldn't say perfect, but really good and interesting.
Awful final boss that has way too hard patterns to the point that it's actually really easy because you can't expect to dodge anything (bomb, die, repeat), enemies taking random damage due to weird mechanics, icicles randomly screwing you over and being reasonable with only 1 shot type out of 4, stage 2 boss randomly screwing you over depending on how it moves, stage 5 midboss that can randomly be impossible, some hp related bugs with the large red lizards in stage 5, random enemy movement in stage 4, shot type balance is a bad joke, etc.
it's hard to understand how bad it is without playing it seriously yourself but it's an absolutely awful game that looks better than it really is

memorization is never an issue, DDP and DOJ have just as much of it except it actually behaves consistently with no weird unexplainable shit that kills runs or makes you lose score happening all over the place
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by SMC »

The rocks in stage 1 are underrated. The final mid sized dragon before the midboss comes during the randomly spawning rock section. If a bunch of rocks spawn right on top of it they act as a shield for the dragon and it shoots a lot more bullets than you might be expecting.
Also they even move randomly, and can even move diagonally into your shot's range when they're close to the bottom of the screen, meaning you get a face full of suicide bullets.

IMO Normal Palm is the only type where icicles are really unreasonable though. The three before the midboss are probably literally impossible without bombing.
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PROMETHEUS
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by PROMETHEUS »

that sounds pretty bad yeah
memorization for me i would say is a problem if the game is near unplayable without (like futari ultra), and if after memorized it is either too easy or stupid hard anyway (random/unfair) or stuff like that
in DDP for example memorization is all right cause the game is quite playable without, to some extent even second loop is. The scoring system is barely enjoyable without memorization though, that's an issue, which for example futari maniac or even god mode doesn't really have or not nearly as much.

Sometimes I think, if DDP had a softer loss of combo/score on chain break it would be more enjoyable on discovery. Ketsui for example does this quite a bit better.

there is room for improvement and innovation but I'm afraid nobody is developping something new like that :P
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Bananamatic
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Bananamatic »

The chaining isn't all that strict, the worst part is touching one bullet or bombing before 2-6 boss and dead run regardless of how good your chaining was
2nd loop chaining is way too easy, it's hard to drop the chain for the most part
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PROMETHEUS
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by PROMETHEUS »

yup of course talking about 1st loop mostly, in 2nd loop chaining is almost put in background
yeah i've also said before MAX bonus is too big proportion, it's pretty much unfair so you need to put in a multiplied number of runs to get any good score, more coins in the machine :P It's almost 50% of score, would fit better near 10-20% or something. When you lose a life, you lose 5M + stage bonus + current chain + bee chain... tbh I would say that may be enough loss for a fair rating^^ I dont mind something like a MAX bonus, but reasonable makes scoring more balanced :O such that if you do bunch of things better than someone who managed to keep their MAX, you may still get more points [and ofc it means for you there are more ways to beat your best score too]
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Arcatech
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Arcatech »

Figured I would bump this thread with some helpful info from Markmsx. Apparently 480i resolution setting is better for this game on xbox 360. I tried it out today and it seemed tighter. Here is the youtube vid about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wlUgY_dj0w&t=469s
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by chempop »

Arcatech wrote:Figured I would bump this thread with some helpful info from Markmsx. Apparently 480i resolution setting is better for this game on xbox 360. I tried it out today and it seemed tighter. Here is the youtube vid about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wlUgY_dj0w&t=469s
:shock:

I have only played SDOJ on 360 with a VGA or scart on CRT and never felt a significant lag problem like people often talk about. Go figure.
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Zaarock
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Zaarock »

That slowdown difference is ridiculous. I've always played the game at 480p and it measures at 5 frames of input delay on average with 4 in rare cases like in markmsx previous input lag chart.
I assume it was originally added in that setup there as well. So unless 480i is really different the input lag should be the same as ever for a lot of players.

Guess the slowdown isn't too surprising with all the jank stuff like optional windows lagging the game (even if said to be patched)
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Arcatech
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Arcatech »

Not sure what is going on underneath the hood, but it was noticeable to me. Was using component cables before that could only go as far down as 480p. With that setup usually I would usually kick the bucket on stage 2. With s-video I got all the way to stage 5 boss first try. Strange :lol:
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by el_rika »

I have my 360 back at my sister's, so i can't take a close look myself, but does the port use any 3D elements at all, that could be affected by the resolution changes?
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Johnpv »

Isn't deinterlacing the 480i signal going to add back any lag that you managed to shave off?
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by prophetic »

Anybody see EOJ's post on cave-stg? He cites a Japanese player's YouTube video. Apparently there's slowdown on anything higher than 640 x 480, but also slowdown in replays.
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by el_rika »

Something i noticed some time ago, when i started studying the cv1000 games in mame: demo mode runs differently than actual gameplay. I don't know if it's the same on pcb, but could be something similar on 360. The moment you control the game, timings change slightly.
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Arcatech
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Arcatech »

Was playing this again and realized I only got to stage 5 on xbox 360 mode. On arcade and 1.5 I still die around stage 2 :( . Maybe because xbox 360 mode was designed from the ground up for the 360. Autobomb helps a bunch as well. Is it emulation for arcade and 1.5 modes? SODJ could get the credit it deserves with a better port to ps5 or pc (Or anything else).

There is an arcade near me that has an Exa, but I doubt the owner would spring for the new version of SDOJ. Would be a cool experiment to try that version when it comes out to see if it plays better.
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by el_rika »

Arcatech wrote:. Is it emulation for arcade and 1.5 modes?
360 is way too weak to handle cv1000 emulation.
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cave hermit
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by cave hermit »

So I just set up a pc CRT so I can play tate 360 shmups at 480p with a scanline generator.

So is the amount of input lag static as soon as you go past 480i (meaning the input lag amount is the same at 1080p as it is at 480p), or does the amount of input lag scale with the resolution?
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Trevor spencer
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Trevor spencer »

I thought I read the lag is best at 480i/480p and gets worse at 720p/1080p
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by Yakkers »

I finally got my hands on this, the input lag isn't anywhere near as bad as I was expecting. I was picturing vsync-tier input lag, which it's nowhere near, but what is there is still definitely more than other CV1000 ports and is certainly enough to mess you up especially with the game's relatively large hitbox.

Anyways yeah, I have pretty similar feelings about the game as most people. Something just feels a bit off and I can't fully put my finger on it, but I think for me it's the larger hitbox plus the fact that you need to laser to vacuum pickups when I feel like most STGs with a system like that do it in reverse and having all enemies always drop stars feels out of place for Dodonpachi to begin with. The game is hard as balls but in a way that doesn't really look hard a lot of the time so it beats me to a pulp but doesn't really feel as rewarding when I go on a good streak without getting hit or needing to bomb.

My secret to actually enjoying the game is to go into novice and then choose the EX outfit so you get the novice version of ultra, it's a difficulty level between normal novice and normal arcade but has nice flashy dense patterns so it feels satisfying to play and you get to enjoy EX mode's smaller hitbox too. I can't ever see myself getting super into this game when it comes to legit arcade scoring runs so I'm just trying to have some fun with it where I can find it. If you're in a similar boat I highly recommend giving novice EX a shot.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: Dodonpachi Saidaioujou

Post by To Far Away Times »

I was excited for SDOJ when it came out, but I didn't really play it much.

I think its just too hard for me to really want to sink the time in. The game doesn't really excel at anything so its kinda hard to justify dropping the amount of time required to mastering what is a fairly run of the mill game.

If I'm going to play one of CAVE's hardest games, I'd play Espagluda II. That game atleast kicks tons of ass, even if I'll never be able to beat it.
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