Amusingly bad reviews

[Danny]

Why did this guy get a review copy?

Good point, the guy has double digit subs and he managed to snag a review copy. Even I have more subs than this dude (almost four times the amount actually) and while I may fuck up on my vids from time to time at least I actually give a shit about the genre and enjoy playing the games.

[Blinge]

. I'm sure I'll end up in this thread too, eventually.

Well you're already here!

Just kidding man, glad you've got something on Mushi coming along to combat this douche's ignorance.

[Cagar]

That mushihimesama review is EXACTLY the reason why I think that ports should have very limited continues, with them set OFF completely by default.
It's a port, you're not playing in an arcade. You're not using more money to continue. Like.. what's the purpose of the continues then? Newcomers will just miss the point of the whole game, while veterans get nothing out of it.

[SMC]

The type of people who think credit feeding is how you play the game are the type who won't see it through to a 1cc anyway

[Cagar]

The type of people who think credit feeding is how you play the game are the type who won't see it through to a 1cc anyway

Based on what?
Because I certainly was like that at one point.

[SMC]

It's just about having the right attitude, and releasing one game with continuing disabled probably isn't going to be enough to change people's attitudes. The guy would just complain that the game is impossible instead of it being too short.

[pegboy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujdABYRNfIA

Jesus christ

Spoiler

No resolution options is a legit complaint though.

Does the game actually look all stretched out like it does in his video? It looks horrible.

[SMC]

No, there are separate vertical and horizontal zoom options for some reason.

[pegboy]

I don't know why people are giving him shit either. That's exactly how 99% of the casual audience would react to playing that game. He even mentions there's not much to it unless you are into "leaderboards" (aka 1cc), which again is exactly what a casual would say. His review if anything is very accurate to majority of people who would buy this game without knowing what it is (aka not this forum). Casuals players would just quit the game and say it sucks if the continues were disabled or limited.

You will not convinced bad players how to play these games, they have to want to learn the correct way by themselves, you can't force it.

[copy-paster]

releasing one game with continuing disabled probably isn't going to be enough to change people's attitudes. The guy would just complain that the game is impossible instead of it being too short.

Hahah the STG dilemma still goes on....

Threads like "this game is impossible" and sonething like that will be a worth discussion on steam forum though, and yes for me 1CC is just like a 'personal honor' unless the game completely set on one credit.

[Squire Grooktook]

There are things you can do to alleviate this problem, designing the game partially around limited continues or other factors, but sadly that casual factor is always going to be a problem. RIP mainstream video gaming.

[viewtifulzfo]

It's interesting who actually gets review codes of such things.

On principle, I figured I wouldn't ask for one (I write reviews and also do Youtube videos) since I would rather support CAVE than simply get a free Steam code.

[PepsimanVsJoe]

It's interesting who actually gets review codes of such things.

On principle, I figured I wouldn't ask for one (I write reviews and also do Youtube videos) since I would rather support CAVE than simply get a free Steam code.

You can always support Cave/Degica by buying copies to gift to others.

That's what I'm doing.

[Blackbird]

Does the game actually look all stretched out like it does in his video? It looks horrible.

The game is presented in the original arcade aspect ratio, which you can then adjust horizontally or vertically.

Here's a video where the aspect ratio is in the default setting: https://youtu.be/fnnwgCjLNls?t=6m35s

[drunkninja24]

There are things you can do to alleviate this problem, designing the game partially around limited continues or other factors, but sadly that casual factor is always going to be a problem. RIP mainstream video gaming.

Honestly, I think the original doujin release of Crimzon Clover kinda had the right idea here. You get points by playing the game, you use those points to buy stocks of continues (or whatever else you want from the in game shop) and hopefully progress further as you get better or buy more continues. Keeps a sense of progression for more casual players without making the game just a credit feed fest right off the bat.

[PepsimanVsJoe]

I liked Eschatos' system.
You earned more credits (and other extras) via a "level-up" system. Experience was determined by your score at the end of the game. I don't think I ever continued, simply because I didn't want to lose all those points towards the next unlock.

It'd be nice to have a similar system in a Cave port, but I think only the 5pb releases tried something like that. Well, not the experience = unlocks system but at least the limited credits.

[ACSeraph]

All shmups should suddenly end right before the final boss and display this screen if the player used continues:



Genre problems solved, gtfo scrubs.

In all seriousness, Triggerhearts 1cc requirement to see the true ending was a big factor in showing me that it was 1cc or bust in this genre. Simply not showing the ending isn't a bad middle ground if you want to allow continues.

[pegboy]

All shmups should suddenly end right before the final boss and display this screen if the player used continues:



Genre problems solved, gtfo scrubs.

In all seriousness, Triggerhearts 1cc requirement to see the true ending was a big factor in showing me that it was 1cc or bust in this genre. Simply not showing the ending isn't a bad middle ground if you want to allow continues.

That was actually my solution to the problem as well. After you kill the "final boss", you'd either get either:

1- If you didn't use continues, you'd get to fight the true last boss.
2- If you used continues, the true last boss would show up and kill you with a "you efforts to stop the enemy were unsuccessful" bad ending.

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Simply not showing the ending isn't a bad middle ground if you want to allow continues.

Eh...no thanks.

For 95% of shooters an ending wouldn't matter one iota("Hey you blew up a thing, here's some credits."). But I probably would have dropped Darius Gaiden if the silly and sometimes dark endings were replaced by "git gud" just because I had the gall to continue. Shooters with multiple paths and/or playable characters(Darius, Psikyo, Shikigami No Shiro, etc) really benefit from having several endings. Players will want to see everything, so they'll play through the game numerous times, and get better in the process.

A bonus scene or a special "Congratulations" splash-screen if you get a 1CC is fine though.

[ACSeraph]

Players will want to see everything, so they'll play through the game numerous times, and get better in the process.

If the "process" is press start until credits roll, then trust me, they won't get better in the process.

I'll have to agree to disagree here, I think endings are something to be earned, and if you would drop a game were they locked behind a 1cc then you probably never truly picked the game up in the first place. Taking in those dreamcast polygons for 30 seconds after finally clearing Triggerheart was the most I think I've ever appreciated watching a game's ending.

If you don't have what it takes to survive to the end and save the day, then why do you deserve to get credit for it and realize that "the mortal combat was only a dream!?" It wasn't a dream man, you died in your sleep!

[PepsimanVsJoe]

If the "process" is press start until credits roll, then trust me, they won't get better in the process.

Unless they're falling asleep on the controller, they're going to get better.
At the very least they'll be familiar with what comes next. What killed them last time, might not kill them the next time. Hell, if they go from using 20 credits to complete a game to 19, that's still progress.

Even if endings are locked away, there's nothing stopping people from just looking everything up on youtube.
If someone wants to improve at an STG, they'll find it within themselves to do better. Throwing up unnecessary barriers won't change anything.

[Squire Grooktook]

The point of endings being locked is that it tells you, in no uncertain terms, that you didn't "beat" the game.

The problem is that whenever you try to tell these people that they didn't "beat the game", they always say "nuh uh!". I usually try and use the score counter as evidence that it's not a "true" win, but that's a somewhat flimsy argument by itself. If removing continues is too risky, developers should at least make it 100% clear that credit feeding =/= beating the game.

Also there's definitely something to be said for maintaining the atmosphere of a game, which locking an ending certainly does. Alien Soldier feels so weird if you continue early and all the subsequent cutscenes are locked.

If someone wants to improve at an STG, they'll find it within themselves to do better. Throwing up unnecessary barriers won't change anything.

That doesn't mean you can't encourage and telegraph what the player is supposed to do. This is really a fundamental aspect of game design. Part of the problem is that the current credit solutions do not telegraph the idea of the 1cc, scoreplay, or improvement. It leaves players thinking that the whole game is a mess of pure random chaos "that you need to be asian to dodge" and it's nothing more then a quick quarter stealing munch for everyone else.


TBH I have no idea why you're opposed to Seraph's idea. You say nobody cares about the ending, but then you say you don't want part of the game "locked off". I dunno, seems contradictory.

[drunkninja24]

Yeah, I've tried the score argument before, but people just don't pay it mind if they aren't going for it. Even harder when it comes to games that just add a digit to the ones counter to indicate continues ("look, I even got a point for dying!")

[ACSeraph]

"look, I even got a point for dying!"

[drunkninja24]

"look, I even got a point for dying!"

Good ol' IGN thinks so

http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/08/04/ ... lus-review

Now, if you can ignore the fact that there really isn't a challenge here since you can continue forever (which, by the way, adds one point to your starting score every time you continue, so if you die a billion times you'd be at the top of the high score list), you'll find quite a challenge in store for you.

[Shepardus]

Just bury continues somewhere in the options menu like Ikaruga, then most people won't even bother finding them and those that do should see that they're modifying the game from the defaults and thus haven't "beaten the game," but rather a modified version of the game akin to invincibility or autopilot cheats (and those that don't realize that aren't going to be convinced by anything). People will complain that it's too hard and never bother 1cc'ing the game, but they'll do that even if you do have continues. I also agree with blocking off the ending, it's done in plenty of games like all the Touhou games and seems to work pretty decently. The extra stages just don't allow continues, period.

also this topic comes up only every single time time there's a new relatively high-profile shmup release

[ACSeraph]

Good ol' IGN thinks so

http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/08/04/ ... lus-review

Now, if you can ignore the fact that there really isn't a challenge here since you can continue forever (which, by the way, adds one point to your starting score every time you continue, so if you die a billion times you'd be at the top of the high score list), you'll find quite a challenge in store for you.

Not at all surprised, that quote of yours pretty much sums up everything we need to know about what casuals think of the genre.

[GSK]

It'd be nice to have a similar system in a Cave port, but I think only the 5pb releases tried something like that. Well, not the experience = unlocks system but at least the limited credits.

The SDOJ port doesn't force you to buy credits but between the coin shop and the nature of the achievements I think they've provided plenty of incentive for new players to keep playing and to play the right way.

(Come to think of it, it's odd that they didn't force you to buy credits, seeing as it's been done a few times before and some of the other things you can buy are more off-the-wall.)

[Blinge]

I don't know why people are giving him shit either. That's exactly how 99% of the casual audience would react to playing that game. He even mentions there's not much to it unless you are into "leaderboards" (aka 1cc), which again is exactly what a casual would say.

Most of the comments weren't "giving him shit." Rather, pointing out that there were things he doesn't know about the genre. That there's more to the game than either credit feeding your way through or "leaderboards." I mean, when someone doesn't seem to understand the concept of trying not to die, I personally can't let that be, I'm not an isolationist.

However the douchebag's response to people suggesting he play in the proper resolution and not that godawful stretch, was to spout stuff like "Modern games have no excuse not to use proper resolutions." Absolutely no consideration of anyone's arguments; to me that's just inviting abuse.

Unless they're falling asleep on the controller, they're going to get better.

Honestly, I don't think so, not with an attitude like this guy's.

[BrianC]

I also find it perplexing when continues are equated with lives. I had a discussion where it was argued that the SMS Double Dragon has infinite lives because of the instant continues (though they can be timed out by not pressing a button), despite how it doesn't even have infinite continues.

I saw part of that Mushihimesama review, but I couldn't stand to watch the game at that aspect ratio.