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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:20 pm 


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Well, you guys are a bunch of assholes (and I mean that in the nicest possible way.)

You've made me feel like a bully joining in in a playground kicking of some defenceless kid without even knowing what the punishment is for.

I just played through a rather generous demo: first full stage, 2 bosses, and arcade mode (insane difficulty) with a third boss to battle, and while I can pinpoint the following potential issues -

- Too easy on default
- Rather slow paced
- Cutscenes slightly intrusive

- I'm not sure if it warrants the seething hatred that's been dumped on it. Poor chaps went out to create a shmup that would stand up to current gen pressures while trying to implement enough gaming nuance to make vets happy, and all we did was spend 42 pages being total dicks about it.

Graphically it's excellent. Some really nice designs, especially the bosses, and, at least on default, the time scenario keeps you pedalling forward thinking about destroying as much stuff as possible. The infamous Piano drop - which I haven't had as yet - is indefensible and I'm sure they slapped the hell out of whoever suggested it, but otherwise the slowing down of time, loosing missile swarms to build back clock digits, and the general presentation seems ok.

Insane arcade is pretty tough - the suicide bullets are a bit off-putting (weird trajectory) and it can be a bit too busy - but it's challenging at least.

I can see it's not perfect, but from this thread I was expecting much worse. And I've played plenty of shmups and I'm a critical so and so, so there you have it.

When it comes down to it, I'm still not sure I'd buy it, but that's not really the point. The point is you're all cruel babies and you should be ashamed of yourselves. :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:38 pm 


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Quote:
current gen pressures while trying to implement enough gaming nuance


Hahaha, what? I've seen early 90s shmups with better scoring systems than this steaming pile. It's especially bad seeing as how its special abilities are ripped off from games that had scoring designed specifically around their use! The reason this game is hated isn't because it's literally the worst shmup ever, it's because it's a painfully mediocre effort from a company that attempted to massively hype itself and should have really known better than to release it with so many glaring issues that you don't expect to see in a modern shmup.

This is exactly the sort of game I'd expect to see from someone who wants to make a shmup but has never actually played them seriously and has no idea how to implement good gameplay, so they just focus on the graphical side of things and hope nobody notices how badly unpolished the game itself is (which is usually a recipe for success if mainstream reviewers are anything to judge by >:/ ).

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like a bully joining in in a playground kicking of some defenceless kid


This is more like mocking that pretentious hipster who has loads of unwarranted self-importance and zero self-awareness. “Rebooting the genre” my ass.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:59 pm 


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BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Quote:
current gen pressures while trying to implement enough gaming nuance


Hahaha, what? I've seen early 90s shmups with better scoring systems than this steaming pile. It's especially bad seeing as how its special abilities are ripped off from games that had scoring designed specifically around their use! The reason this game is hated isn't because it's literally the worst shmup ever, it's because it's a painfully mediocre effort from a company that attempted to massively hype itself and should have really known better than to release it with so many glaring issues that you don't expect to see in a modern shmup.

This is exactly the sort of game I'd expect to see from someone who wants to make a shmup but has never actually played them seriously and has no idea how to implement good gameplay, so they just focus on the graphical side of things and hope nobody notices how badly unpolished the game itself is (which is usually a recipe for success if mainstream reviewers are anything to judge by >:/ ).


Your favourite thread. :)

You have played the game, correct? (Because I hadn't).

Pretentiousness I don't know about and don't agree with. Hipsterness the same - I wasn't actually aware any of that stuff was what the game was getting ribbed for, and I never heard the 'rebooting the genre' soundbyte. Under the circumstances, none of that stuff makes sense or is necessary, but in selling a shmup to a bunch of spoonfed childrens playing Call of Duty, I'm sure they figured the commercial hyperbole was a do or die thing. If they were marketing to us, for instance, they probably would have sold ten copies.

This dovetails into the game itself. Scoring who knows, there are plenty of opportunities in the structure to have implemented a decent system - if they didn't (and I haven't looked into it that far) then it's their loss. But what's leftover isn't as horrible as you make it sound. It plays and handles well enough, the bullet patterns and time manipulation aren't worthless gimmicks, and there's actually more going on in terms of dodging than your average current-gen 'hold-R-to-perform-incredible-acrobatics' chimpanzee is going to be able to deal with easily. So when you say these things:

Quote:
painfully mediocre effort


It really doesn't come across that way.

Quote:
It's especially bad seeing as how its special abilities are ripped off from games that had scoring designed specifically around their use!


Bad that they didn't do more with scoring mechanics (for diehards like us), but borrowing ideas is what creativity is all about.

Quote:
This is exactly the sort of game I'd expect to see from someone who wants to make a shmup but has never actually played them seriously


Not entirely. I've played worse, believe you me - it doesn't appear to be an STG where the dev took zero influence from other examples in the genre. Suicide bullets on maniac, arcade mode, reasonably dense patterns, destructible boss appendages (tied to a timer mechanic) and Galuda's slo-mo. Some notes were taken, and it's not a disastrous stew, just perhaps one lacking a little flavour.

Quote:
and has no idea how to implement good gameplay


Well it plays ok! Fairly good fun keeping the timer in check and finding things to shoot, loosing off missiles and slowing stuff down. It works as it should. Doesn't redefine the genre or shake up the world, but you can have some with what's there.

Quote:
so they just focus on the graphical side of things and hope nobody notices how badly unpolished the game itself is


Lamenting the lack of a decent scoring system is a negative to highlight, but saying it's 'badly unpolished' is strangely inaccurate. We know what's missing, we know what it needs more of, we can see it's not perfect. But what they did do they worked on to a decent shine.

I should note, I've only played the demo - that's one full stage and one full maniac stage additionally. It might turn into a completely boring frustrating pile of nonsense if I ever tried to play it through.
But based on what I have played, it feels like we've gone way over the top in this thread. There are fuckload of Euroshmups that are worse than this.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:35 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
Well it plays ok!


They don't know what a firing rate cap is for. This isn't an early 80s shmup, this is supposed to be 2013. So, no, no it doesn't. Don't lower your standards to try and defend this sillyness.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:04 pm 


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Didn't we just have a thread about autofire abuse in Darius Gaiden? It strikes me as odd that it's a damning flaw in Sine Mora but with Gaiden it's just like "well if you don't like it just don't abuse autofire."
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:09 pm 


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Darius Gaiden was in 1994


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:15 pm 


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Darius Gaiden wasn't an early 80s ship either. It was also the third entry in a well established series by a company that had released a dozen shmups under their belt, not a first time effort by a small developer.

None if that really matters though; autofire abuse is either game breaking or it isn't. Whether or not they have a better excuse is beside the point when considering its impact on the gameplay.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:17 pm 


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no need to have autofire in Sine Mora if you're using the GE-22 ship
the spread in the other ships makes them harder to manage
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:02 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
I've played worse, believe you me - it doesn't appear to be an STG where the dev took zero influence from other examples in the genre. Suicide bullets on maniac, arcade mode, reasonably dense patterns, destructible boss appendages (tied to a timer mechanic) and Galuda's slo-mo. Some notes were taken, and it's not a disastrous stew, just perhaps one lacking a little flavour.


It's definitely not the worst shmup I've ever payed money for either, but I do think it's a bad game. It's more than just being bland or having a bad scoring system, a lot of the mechanics are poorly implemented (the galuda-esque powers having the meter on the other side of the screen, no slow down for when you're trying to dodge dense slow patterns iirc, etc.), the level design is also really bland throughout, with lots of repetition and awkward breaks.

"Legendary Kusoge"? Hardly, but I definitely think it qualifies as a bad shmup.

Skykid wrote:
I should note, I've only played the demo - that's one full stage and one full maniac stage additionally. It might turn into a completely boring frustrating pile of nonsense if I ever tried to play it through.
But based on what I have played, it feels like we've gone way over the top in this thread. There are fuckload of Euroshmups that are worse than this.


The first stage is a bit deceptive.

But yeah I agree, this thread is way too much of a bile-fest. It's a bit uncalled for especially since I think it only happened because the game got a few decent reviews.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:38 pm 



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I don't know why but about 2/3 of my hatred towards this game is the fact that the hardest boss pattern is on the first boss and the auto shield to get through it with your multiplier intact is a random drop. The game is too long to piss me off that early.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:37 pm 


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Mechanics clashing the fuck out of each other. Wanna use that slowdown? Better hope you have a screen full of enemies to make up for the time loss because the timer still decays at the normal rate during it. Wanna dodge things with that slowdown? Fat chance. You'll blow up before you reach the next checkpoint.

Non-constant player speed. Try tilting the analog slightly, then tilt it all the way.

Randomized item drop.

Power items moving off-screen on death, again, randomly.

Particle effects up the ass and environment elements obstructing the player ship. But hey, if those smoke and underwater bullet trails looks pretty, everything is A-OK.

Image

Fucking hell.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:29 pm 


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Been playing through on vita. Its not bad, certainly nowhere near the quality of some other shmups of last gen. Visually this is pretty awesome if at times a bit distracting. The biggest letdown is the story keeps break up the continuity.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:08 am 


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BareknuckleRoo wrote:
Skykid wrote:
Well it plays ok!


They don't know what a firing rate cap is for. This isn't an early 80s shmup, this is supposed to be 2013. So, no, no it doesn't. Don't lower your standards to try and defend this sillyness.


I'm not lowering my standards lol, I'm telling you the level of criticism appears to have been overly aggressive. I mean, I paid money for Joint Strike, and it's better than that.

No autofire cap is an error, but if you keep an eye on the timer it never allows you to go into astronomical figures. So it's easier, granted, but you still need to be actively seeking things out to destroy while not eating bullets.

Formless God wrote:
Wanna use that slowdown? Better hope you have a screen full of enemies to make up for the time loss because the timer still decays at the normal rate during it.


It does?

EDIT: No it doesn't, just tried it. Unless the Vita version has been changed, the timer slows down when you use the slowdown mechanic.

Quote:
Non-constant player speed. Try tilting the analog slightly, then tilt it all the way.


I only played d-pad yesterday, but the analog is actually quite precise depending on how you want to manoeuvre. On a Dual Shock it might be hell though, granted.

Quote:
Randomized item drop.

Power items moving off-screen on death, again, randomly.

Particle effects up the ass and environment elements obstructing the player ship. But hey, if those smoke and underwater bullet trails looks pretty, everything is A-OK.


Yeah, don't like any of this.

Squire Grooktook wrote:
The first stage is a bit deceptive.


I was afraid of that, which is why I mentioned it. You make a good call about the slo-mo meter being on the wrong side of the HUD too, that's irritating. A dial around the ship would have been much better.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:34 am 


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The first stage is probably the worst; between the first boss and the tunnels after it it's not hard to see where people just kind of walk away from the game.

Once you hit stage 2 you're basically guaranteed to have at least have a decent shot built up and the game is a little less annoying for a while.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:42 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
No it doesn't, just tried it. Unless the Vita version has been changed, the timer slows down when you use the slowdown mechanic.

You're right; I must've been looking at the wrong digit. I remember having a run where I used the slowdown and the timer ran out before I could reach the checkpoint although I didn't make any other mistakes, though, so be careful when using it.

Quote:
I only played d-pad yesterday, but the analog is actually quite precise depending on how you want to manoeuvre. On a Dual Shock it might be hell though, granted.

I think it's a lot less intuitive than just having a focus button. And yes it doesn't work with keyboard/d-pad at all.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:55 pm 


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It's sad that the only thing making me want to buy and play this game is basically this "it sucks/no it doesn't" debate. I can't believe me being really curious as to what's up with this is too much to resist. And if it really is very bad from my personal experience with it, then I'll feel really bad for supporting more trash to be released in the future due to good sales... or is it really in the best interest of the genre to buy any new release shmup, really good or really bad? Can't believe this genre is at the merci of casual gamers too... "We're doomed!"


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:38 pm 


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I think this game is free right now on PS+, and I still haven't been moved to download it. Life's too short to spend time on shmups that even the shmup community can't get behind.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:57 pm 


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The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:12 pm 


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Thjodbjorn wrote:
The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.

Could be that it was ported by G.Rev.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:24 am 



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Pretas wrote:
Thjodbjorn wrote:
The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.

Could be that it was ported by G.Rev.


I think G.rev deconfirmed this a little while back.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:26 am 


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Sinful wrote:
It's sad that the only thing making me want to buy and play this game is basically this "it sucks/no it doesn't" debate. I can't believe me being really curious as to what's up with this is too much to resist. And if it really is very bad from my personal experience with it, then I'll feel really bad for supporting more trash to be released in the future due to good sales... or is it really in the best interest of the genre to buy any new release shmup, really good or really bad? Can't believe this genre is at the merci of casual gamers too... "We're doomed!"


It's not supporting the genre to buy a mediocre game that didn't make a ton of money anyway.

"Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:47 am 


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Thjodbjorn wrote:
The vita version is much more enjoyable. I don't know why.


That might explain why I'm a bit surprised at the level of bile spitting. It's the only version I've sampled.

Formless God wrote:
Quote:
I only played d-pad yesterday, but the analog is actually quite precise depending on how you want to manoeuvre. On a Dual Shock it might be hell though, granted.

I think it's a lot less intuitive than just having a focus button. And yes it doesn't work with keyboard/d-pad at all.


How do you mean? The Vita d-pad works very well (decent d-pad for a start) and there's no variable speed of course, just one constant.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:24 am 


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I haven't played the game so I can't be 100% sure but I heard the game had analog and not digital movement, and if you use the D-Pad, you always go at full speed, which makes some sections very tricky to go through.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:20 am 


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M.Knight wrote:
I haven't played the game so I can't be 100% sure but I heard the game had analog and not digital movement, and if you use the D-Pad, you always go at full speed, which makes some sections very tricky to go through.

lol are you serious


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:19 am 


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Isn't that corect? Am I mistaken?
I said I wasn't sure so if there is an error, feel free to correct me. :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:19 pm 



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You are correct!


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:32 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
"Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.

Too bad the Sine Mora's devs never got the message until it was too late.
Building a game from a niche genre based upon the taste of gamers who don't actually support the genre....this project was a fail from the start.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:10 pm 


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Never_Scurred wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
"Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.

Too bad the Sine Mora's devs never got the message until it was too late.
Building a game from a niche genre based upon the taste of gamers who don't actually support the genre....this project was a fail from the start.


Beautifully put. I feel this is something that should be taken account of by fighting game developers as well.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:16 am 


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Never_Scurred wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
"Casuals" haven't supported this genre since the Super Nintendo/arcade days anyway, so I wouldn't worry about being at their mercy.

Too bad the Sine Mora's devs never got the message until it was too late.
Building a game from a niche genre based upon the taste of gamers who don't actually support the genre....this project was a fail from the start.


It's not that bad fool! :)

Play it (on Vita) and then have a bitch.

M.Knight wrote:
I haven't played the game so I can't be 100% sure but I heard the game had analog and not digital movement, and if you use the D-Pad, you always go at full speed, which makes some sections very tricky to go through.


Yep, that's right. But I prefer d-pad movement: top speed is normal speed for a shmup ship, the analog just allows crawling (which can be useful, but you're at the mercy of how good the analog stick actually is. I wouldn't use a dual shock for instance.)
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:52 pm 


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just downloaded the vita demo. gonna give it a go on here ..... and then see if I bitch. :D


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