Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

[Sizone]

I really liked Sine Mora. It's sales figures will probably show that it's not a disconnect between "mainstream audiences" and SHMUP enthusiasts as it is a disconnect between reviewers and everyone else. Most people probably ignored it because it is a 2d, 1 hour side scrolling affair. SHUMP people ignored it because it wasn't made by CAVE nor Treasure nor did it come out on the Saturn or the Dreamcast.

Sad, really. Changing the shot speed so that it goes as fast as it does with a turbo fire controller, mitigating the fucking random item drops and removing the forced scrolling/rotating sections/bosses would've made this one of my favorite games. Every shooter, especially modern ones, has something seriously wrong with it. It's a matter of preference and opinion as to which defect bugs you the most, ie. Strania would've been great with a slightly different weapon system, but that is my opinion and not an objective judgement of game value.

[Zaarock]

I think the story mode is fairly enjoyable for a couple playthroughs (which is how much most people probably played it) and shows the artwork/music/story well. It's great if it gets people interested in other shmups.

But gameplay/design wise it falls flat compared to so many shmups that if you know good games in the genre it's really not worth trying to get good at or bother with if you want to spend your time on something that plays well or you can score attack in.

[Kollision]

SHUMP people ignored it because it wasn't made by CAVE nor Treasure nor did it come out on the Saturn or the Dreamcast.

That's not true at all.

Besides, Treasure is the most overrated developer since, like, ever.... In my opinion your sentence is just another victim of the same mainstream press that's praising Sine Mora as the genre savior - the same one that put Ikaruga on a pedestal for mortals to worship for years.

[NTSC-J]

I think he was just trying to be controversial.

Even so, it's an oddly out-of-date troll. I remember reading that kind of stuff in 2003, but Saturn and Treasure fans have been pretty quiet this past console generation.

[Illyrian]

SHUMP people ignored it because it wasn't made by CAVE nor Treasure nor did it come out on the Saturn or the Dreamcast.

That's not true at all.

Besides, Treasure is the most overrated developer since, like, ever.... In my opinion your sentence is just another victim of the same mainstream press that's praising Sine Mora as the genre savior - the same one that put Ikaruga on a pedestal for mortals to worship for years.

Yeah I agree, Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun are rubbish...

Sine Mora was so close to being good, but just fell short in a few places badly enough to break the game. Fecking power ups flying off the side of the screen

[Op Intensify]

Yeah I agree, Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun are rubbish...

This is an incredibly silly thing to say.

You might find these games to have obnoxious scoring systems that are heavily based on memorization, but you can't deny that they have amazing graphics and sound, fluid controls, masterful level and enemy designs, and balanced weapon systems.

Also, Silvergun was massively improved in the XBLA port by the addition of Ikaruga mode, which suits the game much better.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Treasure's released some really awesome stuff like Gunstar Heroes and Astro Boy for the GBA (the only Astro Boy game made to date that doesn't suck). But Ikaruga, yeah, it's overrated. Scoring even modestly well in it requires pinpoint precision... I can't get into it myself, and as far as survival goes it's rather unforgiving due to the lack of invulnerability bombs, harder to get extends, and so on. Basically, pure memorization with almost no room for error. I don't think it's an outright bad game though, playing it dot eater can be fun for instance, but it's simply not as enjoyable as other shmups out there.

[Illyrian]

Yeah I agree, Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun are rubbish...

This is an incredibly silly thing to say.

You might find these games to have obnoxious scoring systems that are heavily based on memorization, but you can't deny that they have amazing graphics and sound, fluid controls, masterful level and enemy designs, and balanced weapon systems.

Also, Silvergun was massively improved in the XBLA port by the addition of Ikaruga mode, which suits the game much better.

Yes I can, but that's a discussion that's been done before enough times

[dannnnn]

but you can't deny that they have amazing graphics and sound, fluid controls, masterful level and enemy designs, and balanced weapon systems.

I totally agree, Ikaruga in particular is a masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. The sheer inventiveness, every section of every stage does something totally different and it all flows together so well. The boss designs are incredible.

A lot of people complain that they find it too strict, but there are many ways to chain the levels, look up some easier/lower scoring strategies, don't worry about a 30m clear. If you can just make it to 13m, that's three extends right there which should see you through to a nice lengthy credit.

Anyway, I like Sine Mora but I agree with what Zaarock said; story mode is enjoyable for a while but there's not much worthwhile beyond that. To me, it does its best to hide the fact that it's a euroshmup at heart, but isn't quite convincing enough. It's decent, but leagues below most of the 360's STG library. I know I won't still be playing it in five years, put it that way.

[Tokyo-J]

SHUMP people ignored it because it wasn't made by CAVE nor Treasure nor did it come out on the Saturn or the Dreamcast.

That's not true at all.

Besides, Treasure is the most overrated developer since, like, ever.... In my opinion your sentence is just another victim of the same mainstream press that's praising Sine Mora as the genre savior - the same one that put Ikaruga on a pedestal for mortals to worship for years.

Yeah I agree, Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun are rubbish...

Sine Mora was so close to being good, but just fell short in a few places badly enough to break the game. Fecking power ups flying off the side of the screen

Rubbish!!!

What a outlandish thing to say. These games are 2 masterpieces although overrated critically.

People bring them up because they are great games. However Sokyugurentai / Terra Diver and Zero Gunner 2 are better games on STV and Naomi respectively.

Sine Mora is not a good shmup because it was NOT developed by a complete Japanese team of programmers. It may have something to do with grasshopper manufacture but the game itself has no Japanese Flow to it. That same flow dates back to the 80's. It just feels out of the loop.

[Zaarock]

I don't really see the point in grouping ikaruga and rsgun together, they play very differently from eachother.. in terms of being overrated by the press sure, but I don't think they're overrated on this forum anymore since almost everyone has had a chance to play them (xbla releases of both). Also I hate playing Ikaruga but I enjoy rsgun so it just sounds weird to me :p

One thing is for sure, the scoring in rsgun is far more relaxed than ikaruga. in rsg 90% of the time you just kill red enemies and make sure you don't blow up other colors on accident + kill all parts of bosses and you'll get a good score, in ikaruga you switch back and forth to speedkill every enemy possible and get bonus enemies out the ass. Ikaruga sounds great in concept as a score attack game but it just makes me get frustrated because I feel like I'm always doing badly in execution while in rsg it feels like I'm using the wrong strategy with the weapons (though again ikaruga is more hardcore scoring wise, apart from 5A in rsgun).

[Op Intensify]

Play RSG Ikaruga mode.

I got one taste of it and never looked back.

[Kollision]

Sine Mora is not a good shmup because it was NOT developed by a complete Japanese team of programmers.

What's one thing got to do with the other?

[bcass]

People who do the programming don't always have input on the gameplay. It's a silly thing to say. Technically, there's zero wrong with Sine Mora. In fact, it's probably the most technically capable shmup ever made. Graphically, it absolutely blows Cave's efforts at a 3D shmup out of the water. The idea that only the Japanese can successfully create shmups is also tragically antiquated. People who say that mean that only the Japanese can successfully create the kind of shmups they like. The ones that follow very strict design patterns. The best non-Japanese shmups are those that do not follow those patterns and do their own thing, like Jeff Minter's stuff.

[Skykid]

Yeah I agree, Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun are rubbish...

Rubbish!!!

What a outlandish thing to say. These games are 2 masterpieces although overrated critically.

How can a 'masterpiece' be critically overrated?

Anyway, don't listen to Illyrian, he's not allowed to field valid opinions on anything because of his gay love for touhou.
RSG is certainly some kind of masterpiece.

Ikaruga isn't.

[Kollision]

RSG is certainly some kind of masterpiece.

Ikaruga isn't.

I couldn't agree more!

[trap15]

RSG makes me want to kill myself even playing for survival. Ikaruga only makes me want to kill myself if I play for score.

Thus, I think Ikaruga is better.

[AntiFritz]

I've no doubt said this before, but i find ikaruga amazing in everything EXCEPT gameplay. Seriously, I love the music and everything but dat gameplay... and dat scoring which turns the game into fucking Rtype.

[evil_ash_xero]

Anyway, don't listen to Illyrian, he's not allowed to field valid opinions on anything because of his gay love for touhou.
RSG is certainly some kind of masterpiece.

Ikaruga isn't.

They both are. So is Gradius V.

[exquisite_torture]

RSG's fun. Ikaruga's an austere bore.
Sine Mora's a horrible ill-conceived piece of Euro-shit and game reviewers are bellends.

[Skykid]

RSG's fun. Ikaruga's an austere bore.
Sine Mora's a horrible ill-conceived piece of Euro-shit and game reviewers are bellends.

Like this post.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

On the Sales and Specials 360 App, you can currently get this for 400 points off. Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun are also on sale through the app.


But is this game even worth 800 points?

[exquisite_torture]

I'm guessing you have a bunch of other games you could play. Play those. Or repeatedly smash a Battenberg into your face.

[noiseredux]

On the Sales and Specials 360 App, you can currently get this for 400 points off. Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun are also on sale through the app.

woah woah woah...Sales & Specials App? Is this available for Android? Do you need the app to get the sale prices?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

It's an app on the 360. So you need to be on the 360 for it.

And yeah, you have to use it to get the discount since they'll show up normal price on the marketplace.

[noiseredux]

ah I see. Well thanks for the heads up either way. Who doesn't love a bargain?

[MR_Soren]

It's an app on the 360. So you need to be on the 360 for it.

And yeah, you have to use it to get the discount since they'll show up normal price on the marketplace.

Is the app free?

Either way, it's fucking retarded to demand that people clutter their console with more shit before they can get the best prices.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Yeah it's a free one on the 360 App Marketplace. I'm not sure which of the apps are paid, but that one's definitely free.

You have to play the Scratch and Match on it before the sales will show since the continue option after it takes you to it.


Might be one of those things that aren't available everywhere, but since I'm in US, I pretty much have access to all the stuff.

[noiseredux]

Scratch and Match...?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Get 3 in a row and you get something for free. usually avatar crap but there's been XBLA stuff though.

But at a 1/1,000 chance of them giving you a winning board you probably won't get the free stuff.

But you can still get the deals if you lose.