Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

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AntiFritz
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by AntiFritz »

CStarFlare wrote:- Inventing problems that don't exist
- Declaring minor annoyances to be game breaking
Could you name examples? Unless the previous thing you mentioned in your post is what you meant.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by CStarFlare »

The fire rate can be abused with a turbo controller, but isn't so bad that you need to mash through the entire game to keep up. Turbo players do get a damage boost, but the game is by no means unplayable without it.

The hit to your multiplier when taking hits or using a capsule/weapon is significant, but once you realize you get more than half your score from stage end bonuses it doesn't hurt so much.

The cave isn't that hard to figure out. They gave me FFFFFFFFFFFF moments on my first few credits, but almost never since. Same for the garbage tunnel, though it's still a pain sometimes and Sine Mora's inclusion of random insta-kill elements that are not at all obvious is one of its biggest issues.

The randomization of item drops is a pain, but I've never had a pitiful fire rate by stage 2. Stage 1 can be a pain, though.

A lot of the complaints are valid, but they're manageable if you're willing to try. I've said before that every problem Sine Mora has is on full display on stage 1, and the game opens up a lot after that (willingness to use your resources if you need them is critical). There are better games out there for sure and if you'd rather spend time on them that's totally valid, it just doesn't deserve the constant dumping on it gets here. It tries, which counts for a lot when so much in the genre is generic.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Udderdude »

CStarFlare wrote:every problem Sine Mora has is on full display on stage 1
That in itself is a much bigger problem than you're letting on. A bad first impression sticks.
CStarFlare wrote:It tries, which counts for a lot when so much in the genre is generic.
"A for effort" isn't enough.
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Weak Boson
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Weak Boson »

I think Reiker came here in all sincerity and I appreciate that even if not everything worked out. He listened to what we had to say. Maybe he made no attempt to act on it, but that's his decision as designer.

But while I don't hold anything against him I think there are genuine reasons for all the kerfuffle over this game around here. What's really jarring is the mismatch between the mainstream reception of the game and the consensus we seemed t ohave arrived at. It's really frustrating to see critics gush over this and ignore or misunderstand almost all other STGs.

And it goes deep, too. At the beginning there was a hope that this was a shmup that might actually get a bit of attention and help grow the fanbase and get the whole genre more recognition. When it came out, OK, it's not the best shmup ever, that's sad I guess but we can still appreciate it for what it is. The problem was that it got all the mainstream glory anyway.

At least with Ikrauga even if it's not your favourite it's still a solid game and (certainly for me) an interesting first look at the genre. With this it feels like the mainstream conception of shmups is getting further from what we recognize here. That's what's really stirring people up: we feel a need to refute all the 9/10s and calls of "best shmup in a decade" because we think it shouldn't be the representative of the genre.

So it's frustrating but the reasons behind it are not personal. I hope people looking in at our community can see that even if we don't do ourselves any favours.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

CStarFlare wrote:- Inventing problems that don't exist
- Declaring minor annoyances to be game breaking
- The same people piling blind hatred
Nice of you to strawman people's criticisms of the game.
The fire rate can be abused with a turbo controller, but isn't so bad that you need to mash through the entire game to keep up.
This is sloppy game design. Shmups have come a long, long way from arcade mashers where you need to hit the button constantly throughout the game to get an optimal firing rate, and it's made worse by the fact that you can't map the firing button to a custom button (assuming it hasn't been updated and still uses only 3 terrible preset controls to choose from).
The hit to your multiplier when taking hits or using a capsule/weapon is significant, but once you realize you get more than half your score from stage end bonuses it doesn't hurt so much.
The scoring design is still such that optimal scoring is boring as fuck - use a rapid fire controller, and never touch your bombs or special abilities ever. Grab the occasional medal. That's about it. Even Cave's more basic games have chaining systems or pointblanking systems, and Giga Wing and Espgaluda use their special abilities as part of the scoring system; you can save them for safety, but optimal use is in putting them to work for scoring. It's a step back as far as shmup design goes.
The randomization of item drops is a pain
Yes, and it's why modern shmups tend to avoid it. Again, not necessarily a game breaking issue, but an example that the developers haven't moved on with the sort of polished design modern shmups offer. Strania for instance has mostly fixed weapon drops, with only the occasional random weapon box, so you can mostly rely on knowing where you'll pick up what weapon. Randomness in shmups is really unpopular as opposed to in say, a roguelike.

In this case, it has more of an irritating effect because your main weapon feels seriously underpowered unless you know about the rapid fire thing, and whether or not you get powerups makes a very big impact on your ability to kill stuff, which is in turn important to not having the timer kill you.
I've said before that every problem Sine Mora has is on full display on stage 1
This is why Sine Mora is so bad. The problems are so freaking obvious and it's absurd that they weren't addressed before released. It's like publishing a release of a great book littered with print issues and typos everywhere; the final product feels like it had potential, but it's ruined by the overall lack of effort that went into the more mundane details.
Weak Boson wrote:It least with Ikrauga even if it's not your favourite it's still a solid game
Yeah, it's obviously overhyped by mainstream reviewers, but the mechanics are solid. Part of the reason Ikaruga is a like it or don't is that it's got a very tough scoring system that requires extreme precision, and does not allow for much room for error (no safety bombs for invulnerability when you're trapped or about to be hit).
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BIL »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:I worry that the fallout from our response to SM has painted us in a bad light with the mainstream. IE stick in the muds that no western indie should ever pander too. Which while we are purists that isn't the case...
If mainstream viewers are actually offended by stuff like this thread, they deserve to be. Death before dishonour for this genre, and most certainly for we few, we happy few, we band of elitist pricks... Image
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Skykid »

BIL wrote:
TrevHead (TVR) wrote:I worry that the fallout from our response to SM has painted us in a bad light with the mainstream. IE stick in the muds that no western indie should ever pander too. Which while we are purists that isn't the case...
If mainstream viewers are actually offended by stuff like this thread, they deserve to be.
Oh absolutely. I hope threads like this do attract attention, and subsequently piss the right people off. They should be coming to us to find out what makes a shmup work, since we're the players, not going off in a huff and sidelining us as 'elitsts'.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

CStarFlare wrote:
Like how the game is semi broken when you take hit, no floating item rebounds or 2-3 sec invulnerability window
For all of Sine Mora's problems, this isn't really a big one. Use your capsule when you take a hit to grab your powerups and you'll get 80%+ of them back every time. Usually all, unless you're in that fucking wind tunnel.
Which while we are purists that isn't the case, SM is nigh on broken when your ship takes a hit that it's like a 10 sec stun block in a FTG
You don't get stunned when you take a hit.
I didn't mean there is stunblock in SM but rather it's as bad as putting too long a stunblock in a FTG as they both have a similar effect of taking more damage once you take the first hit.

In Sine Mora I find losing nearly half your power ups if you take a hit at the edge of the screen, almost as bad imo is the lack of a invulnerability, get hit in a dense bullet maze forces you quickly dash after them only to get hit a 2nd time. That totally infuriates me as it also brings to light another area of the game I didn't like, the un-holy trinity of high randomness + power ups + time mechanic makes losing power ups and been left with a pea shooter in a boss fight all the more annoying.
CStarFlare wrote:It's pretty obvious that the community has taken something about Sine Mora as a personal insult - whether it's the creators asking for advice and disregarding it, or how it was marketed to the media that is still licking the game's balls, there's bad blood here. It's like reading a Fez thread - the creator pissed people off, so they stubbornly refuse to make or acknowledge any positive statements about the game.
I agree many of us did take it to heart, how we got hyped for it, the disappointment, then frustration to the un-willingness / inability of the devs to quickly patch fixes, fixes that on face value seem to be rather simple and easy to implement. That wouldn't have been so bad if the game was been dropped due to low sales but it wasn't as atleast one patch was put out and the game ported to other platforms.

And like others have mentioned SM while mildly successful became critically acclaimed and with both Akia and Under Defeat released soon after and along came the age old arguments against JPN STG localisations, "this game is a rip off at £30 when Sine Mora is £10. Sine Mora is a better game than those games anyway" It was like the worst case scenario of everything we discussed in detail in this thread coming to light http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29622

Do I feel strongly about the game nowadays? Nope I was originally just sticking in a boot for the lols :) along with pointing out to newer members why the game isn't liked in these parts. It's not as if Mr Reiker is around anymore so I don't care about offending the devs.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Udderdude »

The future is a piano falling on a space ship, forever.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Udderdude wrote:The future is a loli falling on a space ship, forever.
Fixed :P

Besides lolis are better to catch than a piano
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by brentsg »

SM is a dreadful game. The masses only care what games like this LOOK like.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Udderdude »

This is now a "XOP is a better game than Sine Mora because it has lolis" thread

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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Someone bumped this game?

OK, I guess I'd better use this as an opportunity to say "this game sucks!".

Which it does.

:mrgreen:


Did this game sell or anything? It seems like almost all the hardcore hate it, but what about the mainstream?
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by mortified_penguin »

It's Ikaruga all over again. Oh no it got a good review somewhere, lets all be childish and act like it murdered our kittens and stole our prom dates. :roll:
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

mortified_penguin wrote:It's Ikaruga all over again. Oh no it got a good review somewhere, lets all be childish and act like it murdered our kittens and stole our prom dates. :roll:

Ikaruga is a great game though. It may have it's detractors here, but I would say they're a vocal minority.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BIL »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:It was like the worst case scenario of everything we discussed in detail in this thread coming to light http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29622
Ah, for the good ol' days of that thread. :mrgreen: Round and round it goes!

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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by ZaKa-tokyobassist »

Ikaruga. Whether you love it or hate it you're a hipster.

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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by nasty_wolverine »

BIL wrote: Image
What is that? its fcuking creepy!
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BIL »

One of the colourful cast from the greatest bromance ever told Image

(it's also what a person will become if that thread is read from beginning to end in one sitting)
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Observer »

nasty_wolverine wrote:
BIL wrote: Image
What is that? its fcuking creepy!
That's a regular enemy from Silent Hill 2, the patient demon/thing. They are twitchy. Most enemies in Silent Hill tend to twitch and shiver violently.

When things like these are asked I realize I'm getting old...

edit: I thought this thread was about Sine Mora and how it saved the genre by reinventing it with incredibly clever and brand-new never-seen mechanics?

I cannot get over the terrible collision in the sections with walls, like others said, the worms part can and will literally ruin your day. And don't get me started on the killer piano.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by deexor »

What most critics and casuls in awe of the game do, I suspect, is play the story mode on the easiest difficulty. This gives them a shooter that is pretty to look at, and gives them something new without actually turning discouragingly hard at any point. You can try to follow a nonlinear plot about time travel or some shit, and it is long enough so the casul shumper won't feel disappointed with a 20 minute game.

And, if you play it that way, just being a tourist without trying to concentrate on high score, it can be alright.

But when you try to play the arcade mode with any degree of seriousness - which the shmup hobbyists tried - the problems are pretty much immediately apparent... and have been gone over in the thread several times. It's unfortunate for us that the game is heavily balanced for the easier difficulties, and the arcade mode experience feels mostly slapped on for the credibility factor of having a "hard" mode in the game. For me, the only way to have some degree of fun with the arcade mode was exploiting the shot rate with a turbo controller.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Udderdude wrote:Image

Not the bees!
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by mice »

And it's out for the OUYA now as well, if someone cares.
Downloading it. Got a feeling it's going to stutter as hell...
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BPzeBanshee »

mice wrote:And it's out for the OUYA now as well, if someone cares.
Downloading it. Got a feeling it's going to stutter as hell...
Nah mate, it'll probably run so well it'll run at 9001 FPS and go superspeed. :lol:
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by mice »

BPzeBanshee wrote:Nah mate, it'll probably run so well it'll run at 9001 FPS and go superspeed. :lol:
Serraxor wrote:Sine Mora was actually really well optimized (though the vita version didn't quite measure up) so I imagine it should run OK, albeit at 30FPS.
It does run at 9001 fps, for a half a second and then it's down to 1fps and then back again to 9001 for half a second. Just as I suspected. :)
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BulletMagnet »

If anyone's still interested in this one it's part of the current Humble Weekly Sale.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by Weak Boson »

Decided to throw down 65p to get a copy on the PC. I think now will be the time I get round to unlocking the alternate story. It'll be interesting to come back to this with a fresh set of expectations.
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Does the PC version actually address any of the issues like lack of custom control config and woefully low autofire rate (button mashing the whole game or using a rapid fire controller? both are icky)? Does it even play well with a keyboard, or do they still have non-analog movement make you move as fast as possible, so small tap dodging is a chore?

Don't get me wrong, ChoRenSha would be infinitely better with built-in autofire too, but it actually has good music, a scoring system, fun gameplay...
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Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)

Post by BPzeBanshee »

Pretty sure it doesn't.
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