New shmup: Jamestown

[ptoing]

Games get pirated no matter if they have DRM or not, even dongles do not protect from pirating.
The thing with DRM is that it punishes the people who pay, which is ass. Tho the Steam DRM is pretty small really (and optional)

I think I recall John Carmack once saying: "Trying to stop pirating with copy protection is like trying to piss out a forest fire."

[gameoverDude]

Games get pirated no matter if they have DRM or not, even dongles do not protect from pirating.
The thing with DRM is that it punishes the people who pay, which is ass. Tho the Steam DRM is pretty small really (and optional)

I think I recall John Carmack once saying: "Trying to stop pirating with copy protection is like trying to piss out a forest fire."

That statement is very true. Copy protection has never stopped much of anything. and the cracks come out pretty fast anymore. To deal with DRM I don't pirate- it's just BICP: BUY-install-crack-play.

Steam's DRM doesn't sound too bad and is supposedly "transparent". Should I start a Steam account, I won't be concerned about using cracks on those games (though I may just buy box versions of 3rd party DRM games). Look at Monolith who opted away from SecuROM and just used SteamWorks when F.E.A.R. 2 was released (be careful though, the version you see on GamersGate seems to have it according to their product pages). I've heard Monolith hates SecuROM- this may have been Vivendi's requirement on the original F.E.A.R. and the two expansions.

If there must be DRM, please just use SteamWorks- not Tages/Solidshield, SecuROM, or StarForce.
The Metal Slug ca. 1619 look is amazing. Even with 4P co-op, hopefully this can remain a good 1P game as Giga Wing 2 did. This looks like a game that's worth buying- and I'd purchase an XBLA/PSN version on top of the PC one if it hit either console at a later time.

[Rozyrg]

I only hope that isn't the music that's going in the actual game. :/ That would be a tremendous waste as far as I'm concerned. Nothing sucks the energy out of a fast-paced action game for me like a generic, faux-cinematic symphonic score. *cough* Castlevania Lords of Shadow *cough*

The combination of an extra-wide display and boring (although competently produced) orchestral music is reminding me of 1942 Joint Strike actually. At least this one actually has some darn pretty pixel art to ogle.

[S20-TBL]

I only hope that isn't the music that's going in the actual game. :/ That would be a tremendous waste as far as I'm concerned. Nothing sucks the energy out of a fast-paced action game for me like a generic, faux-cinematic symphonic score. *cough* Castlevania Lords of Shadow *cough*

^ This. Here's their YouTube channel. Looks like that IS their BGM style.

It depends on the use of melody and the theme, though. Symphony of the Night's music worked because it made use of memorable melodies in baroque movements, and yet its layers and movements were simple and easy to comprehend. Rocket Knight Adventures had memorable melodies, and yet it was symphonic orchestra music in simple Yamaha FM chiptune form (note that both share the same composer). SMB3's Airship theme was based on Gustav Holst's "The Planets", specifically the "Mars" piece. But it worked. The old school tunes worked because of their simplicity. Restrictions can be a very good thing.

By comparison, modern "new school" game tunes hardly have any memorable melodies to them, in part because at least some of them are trying too hard to be complex movie scores. Not saying they stink or the people who compose them have no skill. I think what you're getting at is rather that movie-score BGM types are too complex and therefore come off as pretentious (read: they act like they're in the wrong medium). I frankly believe we have too much freedom today in that area.

Anyway. I hope these guys at least release a demo before they go full blast. I'd love to try it first and see if it's worth buying. I'm especially curious about how the 4-player scheme actually works.

[RNGmaster]

I don't think that was the ambience they were trying to go for, though. It sounds very baroque and military, and fits well with the "british colonist" theme.

I will second that it doesn't go very well with shmups, though.

[S20-TBL]

I don't think that was the ambience they were trying to go for, though. It sounds very baroque and military, and fits well with the "british colonist" theme.

This is true. Like I said, it's the theme that needs to be addressed. I can't imagine this game with ArcSy-esque melodic rock tunes or any of Manabu Namiki's eurobeats. But I was actually pointing out the trend towards more complexity and how it affects game music. More complexity in movements has this tendency to make a game track sound somewhat washed out, like it was ambient music from a movie. I hardly remember movie tunes except for main leitmotifs or themes like the John Williams ones. But I can hum most NES and Mega Drive tunes by heart.

[Udderdude]

Memorable music is a big part of videogames that is hard to ignore. I had one guy once try to argue me that the bland music that doesn't stand out is better because it doesn't "Draw the player away from the game". Needless to say, all the music he had made was bland as mayonnaise. :/

Every good shmup has a memorable soundtrack, end of story!

[Sumez]

You can't compare GOG to Steam when GOG mainly deals with games that are years old that hardly anyone would bother to pirate at the prices their offered for. I could not see any major publisher releasing all their full price new games on there for example.

The age of the games doesn't matter, the fact that people apparently pirate the games covered by Steam to a much larger extent than the ones on GOG only proves how pointless the DRM is. They aren't achieving anything by having it.

I don't know why you would complain about Steam with regards to DRM when it's nothing at all to be with Steam themselves and entirely the publishers/developers choice what they opt for.

It's the fact that I can't install a Steam game without installing a different program, Steam, to control my use of said game that bothers me. I'm interested in the game, I'm not interested in Valve's "malware". It's like having to install iTunes and have it control your music library in order to use an iPod (fortunately there are a lot of ways to get around that)

[Wonderbanana]

The age of the games doesn't matter, the fact that people apparently pirate the games covered by Steam to a much larger extent than the ones on GOG only proves how pointless the DRM is.

Of course it matters. Far more general consumers are interested in the content offered by Steam than GOG and the fact Steam offers current and new releases is a big factor in that. I don't necessarily disagree with you with regards to DRM being pointless generally but your point here is completely invalid.

It's the fact that I can't install a Steam game without installing a different program, Steam, to control my use of said game that bothers me. I'm interested in the game, I'm not interested in Valve's "malware". It's like having to install iTunes and have it control your music library in order to use an iPod (fortunately there are a lot of ways to get around that)

Fair point. Though tbh I quite like Steam, it's useful and I don't find it intrusive. You don't even have to be connected to load said game or see the store if you don't want to. Have you actually spent any time with Steam recently? Or are you basing all this on hearsay?

[Sumez]

Of course it matters. Far more general consumers are interested in the content offered by Steam than GOG and the fact Steam offers current and new releases is a big factor in that. I don't necessarily disagree with you with regards to DRM being pointless generally but your point here is completely invalid.

No, your point is invalid. You're forgetting the entire fact that DRM does not prevent the pirates from getting their games. At all.

And no, I must admit I haven't spent any time with Steam at all. In fact, I'd probably like it if I tried it. But once again, it's not a question of what I think of this particular program, it's a question of principles.

[Wonderbanana]

Of course it matters. Far more general consumers are interested in the content offered by Steam than GOG and the fact Steam offers current and new releases is a big factor in that. I don't necessarily disagree with you with regards to DRM being pointless generally but your point here is completely invalid.

No, your point is invalid. You're forgetting the entire fact that DRM does not prevent the pirates from getting their games. At all.

And no, I must admit I haven't spent any time with Steam at all. In fact, I'd probably like it if I tried it. But once again, it's not a question of what I think of this particular program, it's a question of principles.

Hehe not at all As I said I don't disagree with you regarding DRM; however I feel most publishers do.

Give Steam a go matey; you may find it's not half as bad as you think. As a PC gamer for many years, I think it's one of the best things that has happened for PC gaming tbh. It was a bit half arsed when it first came out but that was an awful long time ago now.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

You're forgetting the entire fact that DRM does not prevent the pirates from getting their games. At all.

I disagree, Forcing would be theives to jump though a few loopes really does stop a decent number of them. To use my lock analogy, locking your car door wont stop a determained theif with a house brick. That doesnt have as high a chance of happening as if you left your car unlocked and the window down as theives would zone into it like flies to shit, which is exatly what happens when PC pirates notice a game they like has a no DRM label on it. I should know as World of Goo is setting on my old PCs HD, I havnt bothered playing it but im still part of that 90%+ statistic that game execs are concerned about.

I agree that draconion DRM doesnt work, infact it damages sales but not all DRM is draconion.

EDIT +1 with what Wonderbanana posted. Give it a chance, DL it, you can easy set it up so it doesnt automatically start up when you boot up. The sales are great, so is been able to chat and play with your friends while your playing a game. Try that free game Alien Swarm it looks pritty decent although I havnt havd chanece to play it yet

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As for the music I really like the trailer music and especially their War Upon the East Frontier which mixes classical movie soundtrack styles with more modern electronic sounds it even has a guitar solo at the end ffs!

I will admit its not something weve seen in a shmup yet (more like Final Fantasy) but if the sounds match the atmosphere of he game and are high tempoed and enegetic for much of the game im all for this music.

[Sumez]

The thing is, DRM DOESN'T force thieves to go through any more loop holes! They get all their "releases" from FTPs, Torrents or whatever's hip with the kids nowadays, all cracked up and ready to be deployed to any PC, probably a lot easier than to most of the people buying the games legally.
I know a lot of people who actually buy PC games, leave them in the cover and download the pirated version because "it's easier that way".

However, I admit, there's no real defending my problem with Steam, it's just something I don't really feel for. As I said, I have a download code for Magicka, but I'll probably never try it because I don't want Steam...

[StarCreator]

However, I admit, there's no real defending my problem with Steam, it's just something I don't really feel for. As I said, I have a download code for Magicka, but I'll probably never try it because I don't want Steam...

IMO, you're missing out. I like Steam to the point that I even run my non-Steam games from the Steam interface. I don't think I could go back to not having the in-game Steam overlay. Having access to a clock and web browser without having to alt-tab out of a full screen game is just indispensible, and the community features are top-notch. Nevermind lots of quality games are very often on sale for a fraction of what you'd pay for the physical versions, and you never have to worry about having to find installation media or serial numbers if you happen to not be at your home computer.

[peace4myheart]

Just saw a video of this game today and I really want it. I love the art style and the music is so awesome. It sounds so epic. Again, hope it will come out on console, possibly in retail with a soundtrack.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Yea im wrong to use the word "loop holes" DRM is in many ways easier then brick and morter purchasing, although Steam is just as easy if not more. What I ment is not the actual effort required but other aspects like the risk of there been a keylogger in the crack file which many ppl do worry about, or certain aspects of the games content been unavailable like online play, patches and mods which are available if the game is DRM free (or used a duplate password key in GFWL's case).

Anyway im getting tired of chatting about DRM moving back on topic.

To add to what ive already said about Jamestown's soundtrack. My gut feeling is that bloke behind the music comes from a movie background, if thats the case it would be great if he applied the same methods to enhanse the mood and build / lower tension in the game. I know most good shmups do this anyway but its usually just for boss fights. What would really make this game special is how well the soundtrack is correographed to whats happening in the stages aswell as boss fights.

Imo using this type of music means how well this is implimented could make or break the game.

[Special World]

Count me super depressed if this doesn't come to XBLA. Who makes a co-op title for PC? It's lunacy.

[Lance Boyle]

Honestly skipped a good deal of this thread once people started bitching about Steam and DRM but did ANYONE ELSE NOTICE that this could possibly be the first bullet hell shoot-em-up that is worth playing co-op and playing for score at the same time?

Notice how all four players share a score counter. Notice how there are lives displayed when one person is playing, but in co-op getting hit results in a penalty countdown (WAIT X SECONDS) before returning to play. These people are doing something great, here.

Also, regarding Steam, it's 2011 now. If you want to play PC games, Steam is the way. Or you could pirate it and mail them a check.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Count me super depressed if this doesn't come to XBLA. Who makes a co-op title for PC? It's lunacy.

is that a joke? I cant tell

[Special World]

Count me super depressed if this doesn't come to XBLA. Who makes a co-op title for PC? It's lunacy.

is that a joke? I cant tell

Let me count all the times people have gotten together to play a 4 player co-op PC game:

[Udderdude]

Left4dead? :3

[Sumez]

Network games - meh. That sort of nullifies the whole "get together" part - even if you're geeky enough to play it at a "LAN party".
4 players playing together on the same tv/monitor is a whole different experience

[Special World]

Network games - meh. That sort of nullifies the whole "get together" part - even if you're geeky enough to play it at a "LAN party".
4 players playing together on the same tv/monitor is a whole different experience

Yeah, this. Left 4 Dead is a whole 'nother scenario, because FPS games punish you for playing on the same TV. It's more like playing Smash Bros. online with your friends- nobody does it. The group experience is part of the fun. The only games that benefit from online over group play are splitscreen games and games of strategy, where you want the other people in the dark about your moves. Certain games like Mario Kart Wii beg to be played in the same room, even if splitscreen is that intrusive. Games are just much more enjoyable when you can see the faces and body language of your friends, and actually communicate with each other fully. This is not a game that seems to benefit in any way from being played online. There's shared screen space, and you'd want to have good communication between players. Any lag would be pretty detrimental as well. A console version just makes more sense, if they can muster it. Bigger TVs, local play with a number of controllers, less pirating, pre-installed shooter userbase on 360, etc. I'm fine with it being on PC, it just seems like a lost opportunity if it doesn't make it to another platform as well.

[Udderdude]

4 player co-op shmup played for score seems like a contradiction and I don't think it'll work on several levels. First, you've got to round up 3 other people who aren't ass-terrible at shmups. Then you all have to play perfectly at the same time, but do different crap on the screen and not distract eachother, etc.

It's not even really clear what kind of teamwork would be required, if any. There's some sort of bullet reflect mechanism, and if all it takes is people taking turns using it to score, well, that'll be dumb too. Making a co-op shmup more complex than "Everyone needs to not die and cycle their abilities" is a very challenging task and I don't think these guys are up to it.

The whole "get together, group experience" thing is also silly, since if you're just going to laugh at eachother and dick around you might as well be playing SMB Wii or Smash Bros. etc. 4 people playing a shmup at the same time for score requires some modicrum of seriousness, it's not a party game kind of thing :P

And quad play is impossible unless you feel like making controllers for your feet. ;P

[Snake]

I don't see how multi-player will work for score. How many two-player shmups are there today that track scores individually, and how many are played two-player for score? None.

That said I don't always play for score. If the harder difficulty settings are hard enough, multi-player for the 1CC should be plenty of fun. I'm hoping for solid 1P score play and fun 4P survival play.

[Sumez]

Don't try to compare 4-player mode to the indepth nerdy way you'd normally play a 1-player shoot'em up.
I can see how it can easily be fun to play 4 players, but you need to adjust your attitude towards how you play, obviously.

I'm aiming for a competitive 2 player mode in the game I'm working on - if that works, it'll probably make a whole lot more sense in this genre, but it'll still be something different.

[Udderdude]

Don't try to compare 4-player mode to the indepth nerdy way you'd normally play a 1-player shoot'em up.
I can see how it can easily be fun to play 4 players, but you need to adjust your attitude towards how you play, obviously. :)

This is where the contradiction creeps in. You have to play the in-depth nerdy way when you play for score, no matter how many players you've got running around the screen. Now, coordinating 4 people in order to achieve a goal can be a great fun in itself, but the kind of "fun" you're talking about is the "screw around and not give a shit about score" kind. :P

[Sumez]

It is. And there's no reason that can't be good fun, too. It would probably require the game to be relatively forgiving, though.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

It will be intresting to see how the handle scoring, imo theyll be better off getting single player scoring spot on (although maybe a 2 player scoring might be manageable) and have co-op just for fun or add one or 2 simple scoring systems that are easier to co-ordinate.

As ive already said, im quite happy the devs are trying new things out. This kind of oproach is typical of western made shmups, although most devs just dont "get" arcade shmups and make a fuck up (ie euro shmup). It appears that Final Form arnt your typical euro shmup dev team and actually play arcade shmups themselves like DDP so there is a decent chance of this shmup been good

Anyway we have lots of 1 player verts to play already. Im game for something new. This game just like score rush (Im waiting for the steam port) will be just one of those games that is great for getting fellow shmup fans together online or for getting noobs into the genre. Hopefully itll have a solid scoring system so players can play seriously if the want aswell.

I cant wait untill we get to see a gameplay video of a score run of a stage as im very curious if this game will work or not

[Udderdude]

imo theyll be better off getting single player scoring spot on

Balancing scoring across 1/2 player and 4 player mode is a daunting task, and to be honest I don't think these guys can pull it off. Call me negative, but it's not that easy. :P

Not to mention, one player in a widescreen vertizontal (that scrolls!) is going to be very difficult to make workable. It was hard enough balancing things with a standard 4:3 vertizontal (coughxopcough).