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 Post subject: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:24 am 


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This is the thread where you can comment on your vote, or on those of others.
Let's talk about the reasons why we inculde certain games in our lists, or why we exclude others. What has changed, and why?

Here's a link to last year's vote commentary thread.

(I haven't really made up my mind about my own vote for this year, I'll post my reasons later.)


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:05 pm 


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ketsui nerds in full force, already?


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:38 pm 


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-i've put Dai-ou-jou that high because even if i suck at it, it's DAMN FUN; seriously i can't even get past stage 3 without chaining, but i always practice on it and enjoy the graphics and the music, overlooking the insane difficulty of the game

-Futari BL has got an "historical" feeling to me, it's the very first game i've ever imported, and when i tried it the first time i was really excited; i haven't felt that sensation of enjoying a game in years
by the way, i can play it for score seriously with willpower

-i was not that sure at first of putting Psyvariar 2 to the vote, but that game is unique, in terms of "innovation" it won against many others that crossed my mind

-R-type delta was my very first shmup, i still remember when i was a kid, credit feeding through the game, and being frustrated to the fact that when you die, you go back; i've played it so many times, i can remember almost everyting, it's a very important game in my "carreer"

-i thought of putting Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun in an higher place, but then i realized how the hype of these 2 games cooled down quickly, they came and went, especially RSG; i doubt we'll ever see an XBLA port

-Galaga was my father's favourite, he was the one who brought me into these kind of games; damn, he got skills when he was young, now from time to time he plays the game with MAME, but less seriously

-Finally, the original 1942 is there for a reason: fuck that remake Joint Strike, the original one it's still better!

ps: japjac vote is hilarious, it's like "KETSUI ONLY FUCK THE REST OF THEM!" ;D


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:51 pm 


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Still preferring score-centric, less-linear shooters for the most part. Gained an appreciation for pure console shooting with Thunder Force IV. DX (order) and Garegga (batshit chaos) still rule my list. New picks:

22 - Border Down: Classic terrain-laden hori with deep, exploitable scoring. Modern amenities (tiny hitbox, speed adjust, terrain contact not instantly fatal) implemented perfectly. Synthy YACK OST is gorgeous.

19 - Gunbird 2: Perfection of Psikyo's simple, hard and instantly compulsive flash-grab model.

17 - Raiden Fighters Jet: Raiden DX's stuntman* model at 9000BPM. "Manic" in the truest sense of the word. It may be the Ixion and Judge Spear show, but with stuntin' this good, I gladly forgive. Hyperventilating soundtrack makes my boner rage**. *(c)Twiddle **(c)Zebra Airforce

16 - Ketsui: As evidenced by my list, I love point-blanking, rampant pace, extreme destruction, helicopters, 100% military aesthetics and Manabu Namiki, and it's finally ported.

15 - Giga Wing 2: Extreme yet malleable bullet overload. A more deliberate game than Mars Matrix's frantic rush, with supremely gratifying medal volcanos. Sense of altitude and speed is striking - excellent use of its 3D graphics.

14 - DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou: Notable for sheer challenge, but also intricate level designs, ultra-smooth control and overflowing devastation.

13 - Batsugun Special: Rock-solid Toaplan quality with more bullets, more firepower, more ships, more scoring and less hitbox. Lots to love here. Counter-stop included!

10 - Soukyugurentai: What it loses in precision compared to Rayforce, it gains in free-form action. Would place higher with better-integrated shooting. Very cool future-militant style.

09 - Raiden II: Not much of a scoring system, and absolutely refreshing for it. Riveting intensity on survival alone. Tenacious, meticulously exploding enemies make the tiniest popcorn kill satisfying.

08 - Shikigami no Shiro II: Not a great blaster, but finessed buzz scoring and a deep roster pack it with replay value.

07 - Psyvariar 2: Like fellow buzz shooter SNSII, built for scoring replay. Skirting death on crackling "LVLUPS" a unique rush. Two ship types put it over the excellent Revision for me. Some of the most spectacular boss explosions of the genre.

06 - R-Type Delta: Classic Irem, enhanced by improv room and simple, engaging scoring. "Bydo" difficulty plays with the challenge and pacing of a lost arcade entry. Immensely atmospheric, at zero compromise to the action.

05 - Sexy Parodius: Classic Konami, again enriched by the addition of simple scoring mechanics.

01 - Thunder Force IV: Serious, challenging shooter with a focus on pure entertainment. Consistently great level, weapon and boss designs for straight blasting. Soundtrack is pure FM synth bliss.
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Last edited by BIL on Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:53 pm 


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I really hate how we have to allocate 1-25 for each game. I wish it was just 1 is your favorite, 25 is your least favorite.

Oh, and i'm tired of all this bullshit...it's time for Ikaruga to reach the top. It won't...but it's time! :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:10 pm 


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I have 3 Touhou games in my top 25. Fascinating.

also
evil_ash_xero wrote:
I really hate how we have to allocate 1-25 for each game. I wish it was just 1 is your favorite, 25 is your least favorite.

Herr Schatten wrote:
Can I just give a simple ranked list of 25 games instead?
Yes, though the weight of each part of your vote will be calculated as normal. Follow the format above and be sure to give your top pick 25 points, like so:
    [25] [Favorite]
    [24] [Second Favorite]

    ... etc ...
    [2] [24th Favorite]
    [1] [25th Favorite]


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:04 pm 


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Yeah, but I think his complaint is that people who are actual enthusiasts of the genre will have lots of favorite games, and thus will not abuse the system, but unfortunately, there are plenty of people who will abuse the system and give 25 points to the one game they have really enjoyed, and 1 point to every other game (some of which they probably haven't played much/at all). I think this is a decent system, but as acknowledged in the voting topic, it's not perfect. I think I'd prefer a straightforward top 25 as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:30 pm 


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Looks like the fix is in for Ketsui already.. It would be nice if the voting was taken seriously.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:47 pm 


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Yeah I left Ketsui off my list because of that. I wish we could assign a negative value to downvote that kind of shit.


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:55 pm 


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Herr Schattens list is the most intresting so far. Does Batsugun and Batsugun special count as diffrent games btw?
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:01 am 


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Hey guys about Ketsui and 25/1/1/etc:

JAPJAC is JAPJAC, but Sonic R's ballot is due to this thread and Ketsui Defense Force and all that. He did the same thing last year and it was awesome and funny as shit, but this year it seems a little misplaced. Although he's taking the piss out of pointdumping Ketsui and then JAPJAC has the very next post. :lol:

Ketsui and Cave games in general always have the best drama. Look at last year's thread for "90% of Ketsui players haven't really played the game" and more great hijinks I forget. 8)

Oh also you used to be able to allocate points however you wanted (then they got scaled to 100% for each voter), but then this guy put like 9999999999999999999999 for Stargate and 1 for everything else and singlehandedly got it on the honorable mention list one year. I think the current system is a good compromise. BTW every year this guy comes out of the woodwork at this time to righteously defend Stargate, gets trolled, handles it terribly, and hijinks ensue so getcha popcorn ready for that too.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:50 am 


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I hope Dragon Blaze will make it. I mean, come fucking on, how come THIS game is so underexposed?
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:58 am 


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I feel kinda like shit at the moment, but more to the point I'm falling far enough behind the curve of new releases (pretty much anything not covered by MAME) that it seems unfair to the new stuff to not give it a fair shake. I like the simple classics - I live on them - but I've been down that road and don't really see the point of going against people who have either an arcade nearby and disposable income, or who have disposable income and room at home for an arcade. If I get $2500 that's going to a pro camera lens (or two), yo. To be fair I don't think it would be appropriate to skew the results against people who I'm assuming have a wider view of the genre than just 1977-~2000 (but really more like 1981-1993). Ironically, since getting more serious about PCBs I ended up playing the classics far less. All that stuff tends to drive me back to FPSes...not to mention the actual supergun is a bit unwieldy to set up and play.

I don't wanna end up like Bloodreign ( :mrgreen: ), voting some crusty Taito hack of Twin Cobra in higher than TC itself just to give it a spot on the final list. :mrgreen: *

Yes, you Ketsui punks haven't seen nothin' yet, you haven't seen the future and that is Ashura Blaster. That shit is gonna school you all on how a vote fix is DONE

The most important point, which I kind of alluded to above, is that I simply have been out of practice (as has been obvious from all my posts in the FPS thread). I don't know what I would or wouldn't like most now. I may well go over what I have played, months ago mainly, to see what I think is best; I think that there would be enough changes. Wait, I just completed Sigma Star Saga a few days ago, does that count? :mrgreen: And in other news I think that Mystic Riders is a lot better of a game, and a lot better-sounding, than I initially assumed it would be. I'm not sure that's top25 material, though.

About Ketsui:

Voting is a social function. Social functions cause the dramas. If you don't want drama, then just vote your own top25 and hold it close to your heart. :o :o :wink: :lol:

[25] [MAJOR STRYKER]
[24] [Ashura Blaster]
[23] [Sigma Star Saga]
[22] [Huygenslide]
[21] [Twin Hawk]
[20] [Strikers 1945 free online flash game.]
[1] [Mystic Riders]

* Note: this didn't actually happen this year. I remember when it did though :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:22 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
people who I'm assuming have a wider view of the genre than just 1977-~2000

You've made a crazy assumption.


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:32 am 


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Rob wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
people who I'm assuming have a wider view of the genre than just 1977-~2000

You've made a crazy assumption.

I know!!!

I LOVE IT!

(imagine there is a picture of a rotating red strobe light here, I looked for one but I got distracted by pictures of girl flashers. anyway here is a picture that should satisfy both demands at least a little)
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:30 pm 


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I was seriously beginning to doubt this would happen this year. Good news! Perhaps preparing my list will get me to play a shmup. It's been months since I last played.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:24 pm 


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I made my list and then I compared it to my last year list. The major difference is the absence of Gunnac, and the addition of Mushihimesama Futari, which I finally got to play thanx to the Region Free release of it on the 360.

As every year, my lonely vote for Hype is there. It's a shame it's such an obscure game, it's one of the finest old school shmups ever made.


And I always find interesting to notice how my list has lots of common games with Herr Schatten's list every year :) .
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:32 pm 


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I'm gonna sit this one out. But, I would really like to see more votes for, the 1st Shikigami, Twinbee Yahoo, Shock Troopers,Gekirindin, and Raiden 4.
Can't wait to see the results!
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:15 pm 


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Bvork's list is awesome, really good variety. Moving Ikaruga down is also a plus.

Ed I don't think anyone can play everything, Not even us. You should make a list you always have the best trivia on obscure arcade companies your list would be very interesting.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:16 am 


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xris wrote:
I'm gonna sit this one out.


Okay...

Quote:
But, I would really like to see more votes for, the 1st Shikigami, Twinbee Yahoo, Shock Troopers,Gekirindin, and Raiden 4.


Then just vote dammit.


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:21 am 


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Vyxx wrote:
xris wrote:
I'm gonna sit this one out.


Okay...

Quote:
But, I would really like to see more votes for, the 1st Shikigami, Twinbee Yahoo, Shock Troopers,Gekirindin, and Raiden 4.


Then just vote dammit.

I agree not voting is just silly. You can't expect people to give what you like praise if even you won't support it.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:58 am 


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You have a point, but as prefered, I don't have enough experience with enough of the games to vote. I have some catching up to do for next year. I'll cheer from the sidelines fot now.
Go team!
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:43 am 


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Quote:
I don't have enough experience with enough of the games to vote.


Nice mentality there. :roll: With this kind of thought process the only people who should vote are those who started gaming with space invaders. The whole point of a top 25 vote is to compare which games get voted by the enthusiasts on this site. Not to create some kind of law or factual based list, it's all about opinions, personal experience, and dodonpachi vs battle garegga :?
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:37 am 


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First year I get to vote, barely was familair with enough of the games, and even then, some of them it was a stretch. Like, "Oh yeah, bakraid, garegga, batrider... I know those games, seen footage and streams... rank wank, yeah, but never really played 'em much." so I took a little liberty as far as being familiar with the old top 25 and honorable mentions. I think some users should try to do the same so we can get a larger vote. As such, had a little trouble picking the last few of my votes. But I'm happy anyway.

Mushi1 is on the top of my list because it's the first Cave game I really got into, with the cooky chain-tapping scoring mechanic. It was really unique and VERY addicting to me. Don't know how I managed spending 5 hours a day on Maniac mode but I did, it was an exciting time when I was discovering TATE and all that.

I'm pretty glad to be giving Dragon Spirit and Raiden IV some love. Both games I got to enjoy more than I expected. Dragon Spirit is just plain fun, love to play it without autofire. Wrenchingly difficult at times but incredibly rewarding to progress. Another fantasy shmup that captivated me like Mushi1. Hishozame (Flying Shark) is just one of those games shmup fans have to play.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:46 am 


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professor ganson wrote:
I was seriously beginning to doubt this would happen this year. Good news! Perhaps preparing my list will get me to play a shmup. It's been months since I last played.


That's sad, man.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:27 am 


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xris wrote:
I don't have enough experience with enough of the games to vote.


If you've played 25 Shmups, you can vote. I'm sure you have one way or another...


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:52 am 


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Or rather, if there is at least 25 shmups you've enjoyed to an extent, it's a reason enough to vote, thus letting people know those shmups can be enjoyable.
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:46 pm 


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Thanks for the encouragement guys!
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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:51 pm 


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Obiwanshinobi wrote:
Or rather, if there is at least 25 shmups you've enjoyed to an extent, it's a reason enough to vote, thus letting people know those shmups can be enjoyable.

Especially if all of those shmups are Major Stryker.


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 Post subject: Re: 8th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - commentary thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:38 pm 


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Major Stryker is great! Can you name another shooter where you play as a baked potato?
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