Ketsui: Kizuna Jigoku Tachi Extra (XBox 360)

[Special World]

Ketsui is HELLA tight..and the scoring system is HELLA easy to understand..

I'm just arguing for the sake of conversation right now.

Futari isn't exactly deep as the ocean, either.

But I do feel DOJ is much too restrictive.

[-Bridget-]

Hmm, methinks you guys need to spend more time with the Cave back catalogue. Although we're in agreement regarding Futari's greatness, I don't know how much it trounces the rest of the offerings (if at all).
I'd put several earlier shmups, including Progear and Ketsui, above it in my list.

Personal tastes differ of course, it just sounds like Futari is the first Cave shmup that really grabbed you, hence you have a soft spot for it.

Actually it was the original Mushi that grabbed me; which was also one of the two shmups (the other being Giga Wing) that really got me interested in the genre.

This is DESPITE the fact that the scoring in the first Mushi is a hideous, cryptic mess. To me, anyway. I never DID fully understand it, alot of my enjoyment from that one eventually came from Ultra mode (which I eventually beat after great, great deals of swearing).

I'm pretty familiar with all of the older games, and have all 4 of the PS2 ports. And of course the games on Mame. Though honestly, I find it a bit hard to go back to some of the older ones, after playing the newer ones, which in my view were just a bit better overall. Progear is probably the big exception to this rule for me; if I had to pick a third favorite Cave title, after Futari and Ketsui, Progear is definitely it. I've played it to death, though it's been a little while since my last run; I got a little annoyed at it last time, since I very nearly killed the final boss, but lost my final plane like, RIGHT before it would have exploded. Aaagh, I was so annoyed. lol.

Futari still stands at the front of the pack though as far as I'm concerned. Though I like Black Label a little more than 1.5, mostly due to God Mode being excellent (albeit rather irritating at times). The inclusion of the excellent Arrange mode just furthers my liking of this game. My only problem with it, really, is the first stage in Ultra, which could not possibly be more obnoxious. Whoever came up with those exploding boulders needs a boot to the head.


Anyway, back to Ketsui, where I have a couple of questions for you guys:

1. Why is it that most players seem to prefer using the... uh... ah geez, I forget the names... the helicopter with the wide shot, over the other one? Is there some scoring-based reason I'm missing?

2. For X-mode, could someone tell me exactly what it is that determines what level of chip appears when you pop a red foe? There's numerous points while playing that mode where it's like, ok, why did I just get a string of 2-chips instead of 5's here?

3. What in the world do these EX options do exactly? Some of them arent exactly very explanitory.

[Skykid]

Well from a completely non-scoring perspective, I always felt the pacing of the first Mushi was better than Futari (which has odd stage lengths and a tedious first two levels), the stage designs in the first are more inventive (bar Futari's last stage, which is gold) and the music is better overall in the original game.
Futari's biggest draw is it's scoring system though, which is light years ahead and obviously counts for a lot.

DDP DOJ is for men.

This. DOJ isn't for the faint of heart, it constantly pummels you with the most relentless bullet hails ever. I don't dig the chaining completely either, but I've never stopped enjoying the survival aspect. For me it's the game that really defines 'bullet hell', and when you're in the thick of it there are moments of gaming nirvana unparalleled in any other shmup.

It has this kind of apocalyptic feel about it all. Like it says to you "this is the hardest fucking game ever, and I'm going to destroy you. Man up!"

Anyway, back to Ketsui before the thread derails.

[bcass]

It looks like each Leaderboard only stores the first 999 scores for this release. Shame, as it lets you cycle to the end of each Leaderboard, and would have been an ideal way to (approximately) track sales.

I've only played a handful of credits so far (never played the PCB before) and I have to say, to me, it seems just as hard as DOJ!

Hey, why in the hell is the guy on the right side in the wallpaper? It cuts the front of his face off.

Just move the display to the left a bit in the Visual Config section. There's a sorry lack of wallpapers actually. A few more wouldn't have gone amiss.

[Depth Charge]

I'm really enjoying Ketsui and can see it becoming one of my favorites from Cave. I can get to Stage 3 boss consistently but thats about it for right now. Even though it's hard it really isn't frustrating me, the gameplay is just too good. It seems like it really rewards an aggressive playstyle. Stage 2 music really grew on me and I love it.

[antares]

With the overscan set to 83% the waving on the horizontal can be eliminated, while the vertical axis looks good (but not perfect) on this setting. Overall 83% seems to be the best setting though if one doesn't mind the smaller playing area. (Applies to Yoko 720p, Nearest Neighbour only).

Further more, the conversion feels a bit laggy.

I'm playing via scart rgb in 480i and setting the resolution to 93% will eliminate the horizontal waving completely (tate mode). It's still noticeable vertical but I think overall that's the best setting when playing in 480i.

Also I haven't noticed any lag at all when playing with scart rgb cable.

[yosai]

Are there any requirements for reaching DOOM on X mode other than beating Evaccania?

Cheers.

[Kiken]

Are there any requirements for reaching DOOM on X mode other than beating Evaccania?

It seems you have to No Miss to stage 5. And once you do, the regular red suicide bullets are swapped out for Ura-Loop blue uncancellable suicide bullets.

[Trevor spencer]

It seems you have to No Miss to stage 5. .

Thats me never getting there then

[nZero]

1. Why is it that most players seem to prefer using the... uh... ah geez, I forget the names... the helicopter with the wide shot, over the other one? Is there some scoring-based reason I'm missing?

Shorter locking interval with the lockshot.

2. For X-mode, could someone tell me exactly what it is that determines what level of chip appears when you pop a red foe? There's numerous points while playing that mode where it's like, ok, why did I just get a string of 2-chips instead of 5's here?

There seems to be a relation to how many locks you have on an EX enemy when you kill it.

3. What in the world do these EX options do exactly? Some of them arent exactly very explanitory.

Ketsui Bomb - lets you bounce a bomb against the side of the screen if the enemy you're locked onto is beside you and dies at the moment you launch the bomb, won't happen in an XBox Live game
Loop - Off means you never go to the 2nd loop, On means you go to the Front/Back loop if you meet the conditions when beating the first loop, Omote means you always go to the Omote/Tsuujou loop upon beating the 1st loop, Ura means you always to to the Ura loop upon beating the 1st loop
Continue at Doom - Off: lose all of your lives while fighting the TLB and it's GAME OVER
Wait Control - Simulate the slowdown from the PCB or run wide-open all the time
Chip Range Control - Determines how close you have to be to an enemy to get higher-value chips
Chip Drop Control - Determines the amount of chips released by a destroyed enemy
No Bullet - This one at least is self-explanatory I hope

[Strider77]

My vote ranks Futari BL higher than Ketsui also... but I still like Ketsui alot. I've played and own everything cave has put out shooter wise between PCBs and ports, except the newest DDP and Deathsmiles 2.

Ketsui is great, reallly great but I think it's not the clear #1 end all be all some have made it out to be. I can see why some would like it best and I can see why some would pick another cave title over it though. I still like Futari BL the most over all.

But one thig is for sure I like both WAY more than DOJ. I like DDP more than DOJ..... DOJ is great but it's scoring doesn't do anything for me.

[Fudoh]

How do I unlock the EX options besides the Ketsui bomb ? Has problably be explained before, but can't find it right now.

[nZero]

How do I unlock the EX options besides the Ketsui bomb ? Has problably be explained before, but can't find it right now.

Either overall playtime or number of plays, I've heard both, not sure which is correct. Either way, just play the game a bunch and they'll unlock in order.

[velocity7]

Are there any requirements for reaching DOOM on X mode other than beating Evaccania?

It seems you have to No Miss to stage 5. And once you do, the regular red suicide bullets are swapped out for Ura-Loop blue uncancellable suicide bullets.

I just checked actually; no-missing up to 240m points will trigger Ura-loop bullets. Dying after this will revert them to regular suicide bullets, but is likely to have caused DOOM to appear.

For evidence of this, check the replay on XBL Leaderboards by misty3kizuna, 573,445,083, 1-5ALL, Type-A, recorded on 2010.04.26 at 06:19:33. Skip ahead to the beginning of 1-4; you will find regular suicide bullets. Once misty3kizuna passes 240m, they change to Ura. During 1-5 when he dies, they revert back to regular suicide bullets.

[dan76]

My copy arrived today so here are a few impressions of arcade mode (having only played a few credits on the PCB years ago).

The presentation is excellent, virtually no loading. I think the graphics look really good, loving the overall design, DOJ is Kestui's fugly sister. I'm playing yoko on a large 32inch CRT. Screen size at 97% with the bicubic filter and everything is crisp and sharp, no background tearing or weird ripples.

I was kind of expecting an onslaught right from the off, but it's not as difficult as I'd remembered (at the very start anyhow). Stage 3 boss on my first credit, and usually making it to stage 4 boss after a few hours (stage 4 is hard going...). I've quickly found myself running out of space edging around and cutting back into the center - gets pretty full on, and at first impression is harder than ESPII, but not as punishing as DDP DOJ. Both ships feel good - I prefer playing with the wide shot but seem to do better with the narrow shot... The bullet patterns are something else. Really creative, bizarre patterns.

I'm loving the scoring mechanic - took a few goes to get the hang of it. Here it is as basic as I can put it: Shooting enemies releases cubes with a value of 1-5. Shooting an enemy with shot (C) sets the cube value depending on how close you are. Once you get a "5" cube value switch to lock shot (A) and all enemies will release "5" cubes regardless of your distance from them. The cube value quickly runs down to 1, so repeat, repeat, repeat. It doesn't seem as if you have to point blank everything, just the enemy to set the cube value (?). The enemy placement is such that there's almost always an opportunity for scoring. That's my understanding of it anyhow, please point it out if I've got it wrong (as simply as possible, as if explaining it to a monkey). I've been trying to play just for survival and ignoring the cubes but those damn "5"s are more addictive than crack...

The game is what I'd hoped it would be - a more straight forward shooter. Bit more old school and less frills, much like the port itself. I've not really played much of x-mode, though it seems good because they haven't screwed up the survival difficulty.

So yeah, it's the daddy.

[-Bridget-]

My copy arrived today so here are a few impressions of arcade mode (having only played a few credits on the PCB years ago).

The presentation is excellent, virtually no loading. I think the graphics look really good, loving the overall design, DOJ is Kestui's fugly sister. I'm playing yoko on a large 32inch CRT. Screen size at 97% with the bicubic filter and everything is crisp and sharp, no background tearing or weird ripples.

I was kind of expecting an onslaught right from the off, but it's not as difficult as I'd remembered (at the very start anyhow). Stage 3 boss on my first credit, and usually making it to stage 4 boss after a few hours (stage 4 is hard going...). I've quickly found myself running out of space edging around and cutting back into the center - gets pretty full on, and at first impression is harder than ESPII, but not as punishing as DDP DOJ. Both ships feel good - I prefer playing with the wide shot but seem to do better with the narrow shot... The bullet patterns are something else. Really creative, bizarre patterns.

I'm loving the scoring mechanic - took a few goes to get the hang of it. Here it is as basic as I can put it: Shooting enemies releases cubes with a value of 1-5. Shooting an enemy with shot (C) sets the cube value depending on how close you are. Once you get a "5" cube value switch to lock shot (A) and all enemies will release "5" cubes regardless of your distance from them. The cube value quickly runs down to 1, so repeat, repeat, repeat. It doesn't seem as if you have to point blank everything, just the enemy to set the cube value (?). The enemy placement is such that there's almost always an opportunity for scoring. That's my understanding of it anyhow, please point it out if I've got it wrong (as simply as possible, as if explaining it to a monkey). I've been trying to play just for survival and ignoring the cubes but those damn "5"s are more addictive than crack...

The game is what I'd hoped it would be - a more straight forward shooter. Bit more old school and less frills, much like the port itself. I've not really played much of x-mode, though it seems good because they haven't screwed up the survival difficulty.

So yeah, it's the daddy.

Yeah, I think you're pretty much on the mark as for how the scoring goes.

From what I see, the only real difference between being close to an enemy and not being close, once you've got a chip combo going, is that being close means you get the chips a bit faster, which sometimes seems to be the key to making the combo go on longer. I could be wrong though, maybe I'm just not doing it right, heh.


Personally I prefer X-mode. Even MORE bullets, no lowering of difficulty, and a good scoring system that DOESNT require I point-blank everything all the freaking time. I like Arcade mode's scoring, but it can be aggravating in the same way that Futari BL Original can be aggravating. With enough practice I'll get it down, but... it'll probably take quite awhile. It was that way for BL Original, it took quite some time for me to be able to point-blank most things without dying; and practicing this involved alot of me ramming into stupid birds.

At least Ketsui's doesnt have rank that goes berserk if you're doing good enough though, BL Original does, heh.

I really just am not tiring of this game, overall.

I *am* however tiring of that huge ship that appears right after Black Draft in stage 4. Agh, I hate them things! And of course, cant have just ONE of it, nooooo, gotta be like, 4 of them in the stage. Agh. Aaaaaagh.

[Shelcoof]

Just got my copies in today too.

I'm a bit disappointed that the LE version isn't any different than the SE version regarding box art. Thought they would use something different.

I'm also use to the HD updated graphics on Deathsmiles, Futari and ESPGaluda II as well. So the graphics department was a downer for me.

But aside from all that, I found myself playing 2 hours straight on my first session in arcade mode. The game really rocks, can't wait to try out X mode later.

[Strider77]

That's what you get for buying 2 copies of the same game... sell the other on the forum.

[Shelcoof]

That's what you get for buying 2 copies of the same game... sell the other on the forum.

Too lazy to deal with the hassle of finding a buyer. Not only that but I would also be losing money as well. Might as well keep it for now.

[yosai]

It seems you have to No Miss to stage 5. And once you do, the regular red suicide bullets are swapped out for Ura-Loop blue uncancellable suicide bullets.

Cheers. Really tempted to pick this so I can practice stages 4 & 5. On a good run I can get no miss to stage 4 but it goes to shit after the mid boss.

I *am* however tiring of that huge ship that appears right after Black Draft in stage 4. Agh, I hate them things! And of course, cant have just ONE of it, nooooo, gotta be like, 4 of them in the stage. Agh. Aaaaaagh.

Especially the two just before the end of level boss.

[nZero]

Hmm... Mihara only no-missed to Stage 4 and never activated Ura-loop suicide bullets, but fights Doom anyway.

Kiken did you ever figure out why Doom would or wouldn't appear in X-Mode St.5 practice? It didn't feel totally random but I never could pin down the condition...

[NTSC-J]

I've no-missed to 240 million and triggered the blue suicide bullets three times now but have yet to encounter DOOM. Maybe you can only die once or twice?

[croikle]

EOJ suggests that the condition is (bombs used < 7). Does this jive with your data?

[MSZ]

Personally I prefer X-mode. Even MORE bullets, no lowering of difficulty,

I found it a lot more easier than the arcade mode, I reached stage 4 in X mode just a couple of plays later. At the same time in the arcade mode, second half of stage 2(!!!) still owns me hard.

[Elixir]

I now have some impressions after having Ketsui arrive - http://d.hatena.ne.jp/elixir68k/20100429

X-mode is ridiculously good, I'm surprised 5pb managed to come up with something that's just so much fun to play.

[EOJ]

Something I wrote today that some of you might find to be of interest:

http://eoj-sh3.blogspot.com/2010/04/why ... 0-for.html

[Dave_K.]

Glad you like the port EOJ. Unfortunately I doubt its going to have as big an impact on the PCB prices as you hope. I'd like to see proof of pcb prices in the 50,000 yen range.

We'll be doing a side by side play comparison with the port and PCB at my shmupmeet tomorrow night, and see what people think.

[Animaitor]

Thanks for your thoughts EOJ! Waiting for your update on the X-Mode strategy over at the cave-stg site as the ST from shmups seems will not be updated with the 360 port, at least from Valgar's part.

[EOJ]

Unfortunately I doubt its going to have as big an impact on the PCB prices as you hope.

You've misunderstood. I don't "hope", I merely "expect". I frankly don't care how much the PCB is as I have no intent of ever buying it again after having this port.

I'd like to see proof of pcb prices in the 50,000 yen range.

Here you go:
http://page4.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d105577379

Thanks for your thoughts EOJ! Waiting for your update on the X-Mode strategy over at the cave-stg site as the ST from shmups seems will not be updated with the 360 port, at least from Valgar's part.

Thanks. I will update the X-Mode strategy thread very soon, so stay tuned.

[Elixir]

Anyone know what the requirement is to unlock the Ketsui gamerpic?