Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Slump]

I don't personally see the big deal with being a "niche genre." Other than the fact that it makes it difficult for western gamers, like myself, to get a hold of some of the titles there are in fact some major benefits from being part of a niche. In fact, if anyone has ever taken a business class at nearly any university they'll tell you for a small entrepreneur it can best to find a niche with strong following vs. jumping into a pond highly populated with some big fish (paraphrasing of course ). Just look at all the mainstream games with rave reviews that many here would consider crap. How long do you think it would take shoot 'em ups to do the same when reaching such a status? Don't get me wrong I'd love to see the genre grow and I lament the the dying of arcades and PC gaming as the industry moves more and more to consoles but hey, I enjoy being part of a genre that traces it's roots to the foundation of all gaming. There's a camaraderie and mystery that comes with shoot 'em ups that I don't think you can find anywhere else.

I do wish however, that developers could get the sales numbers more "mainstream" genres get. But I think the genre has a strong enough following that if a developer house performs "smartly" in managing teams, ideas, and resources there is still plenty of money to be had allowing for progression in the genre.

[Exarion]

I'm not hoping for the genre to become mainstream, that certainly won't happen. I'm instead hoping for the genre to have a slightly larger niche, so that the few surviving arcades will actually carry shmup machines, or at least make it so people know what genre you're talking about. The genre is currently so small that very few companies will attempt to move into it unless it expands. I'm still working on getting everything converted to go mainstream sites, and would really like some input on anything.

[ShmupSamurai]

shmups being a niche genre is fine by me

[MachineAres 1CC]

shmups being a niche genre is fine by me

This.

[orange]

shmups being a niche genre is fine by me

This.

[SFKhoa]

shmups being a niche genre is fine by me

This.

[elvis]

(I refuse to call them "shmups")

You must get a real kick out of saying that on shmups.com then.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I think everybody who says that they prefer shmups to be niche and that shmups been mainstream will result in most / all shmups made been tat are forgetting that shooters where once mainstream and many great classics made during that time period (unless your a person who like danmaku only).

If shmups made it to the mainstream in the future it can only be a good thing in my book, all it means is more games to choose from that are eather poor, average or great.

[RHE]

I think everybody who says that they prefer shmups to be niche and that shmups been mainstream will result in most / all shmups made been tat are forgetting that shooters where once mainstream and many great classics made during that time period (unless your a person who like danmaku only).

To that time most of all games were somehow hardcore, and you had less genres to choose from. So less competitions for shmups. And shmups just don't deliver what most people want these times: directive competition and story driven single player gameplay. With shmups you only get indirect competition and short (unless you consider replay value) single player gameplay that lack of a proper story. Only a story driven shmup that somehow features direct competition can probably make the shmup morepopular (not mainstream by any means though).

If shmups made it to the mainstream in the future it can only be a good thing in my book, all it means is more games to choose from that are eather poor, average or great.

I disagree. It's always a niche that creates innovative games. Only sometimes they get big enough to become mainstream, but once they are you only get more of the very same. Most mainstream games have to be very formulatic as well, so they can fit the taste of a majority. I don't see how this is a good thing.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Hmm you might have a point there since mainstream gamers of today and yesterday are a different breed due to everybody and his dog playing games not just the hardcore demographic. This might also means that shmups will probably never become mainstream ever again and will stay as niche, due to the casual demograph.

Also niche games are what indie developers tend make and we all know that indie can produce some great games. If shmups went mainstream the indie boys would certainly leave town. Still i do think that we would benefit from shmups been played by more gamers then what we have atm, since the more ppl who play shmups the more ppl you guys at the top of the leader boards can tell others that your better then them

So ill change my argument to that mainstream would be great for shmups if every gamer was brainwashed into been hardcore or thinking they were japanese, korean or any other eastern country that full of hardcore gamers

[S20-TBL]

Hey, all. Actually a lurker here for a long time, one of those unnamed Guests you see in that "users browsing this forum" stats bar at the bottom. First time for me to post in this new forum format, since I had been a member long ago around 2001-ish but disappeared after a while. So, yeah, I'm guilty of the "this post brings out all the newbs" phenomenon commented on earlier in this thread.

Here's my two cents on this issue, as someone working in game development myself. I will be speaking primarily from experience at first, since for me to analyze the overall market situation would take an arm and a leg, and several days' worth of research. Which I don't have the luxury of.

From what I have observed over the past two years at least a large portion of the market has swung greatly into the realm of casual gaming. We're talking Facebook games like Cafe World and Farmville and all that jazz, not to mention all those games people keep putting out on Big Fish (which are ultimately just clones of Ravenhearst or Dream Chronicles--and I predict, in future, Drawn: The Painted Tower). They certainly aren't kidding about the "A New Game Every Day" tagline, even when most of those "new games" are things we've actually seen before.

Without going too much into the console wars issue, I imagine it would now be pretty easy for folks to see where a sizeable portion of game development has swung towards as well. The casual market is now one of the players with the big bucks and it's dictating what pitches management will accept. Additionally, software development scheduling processes and learning curves aside, casuals are far easier to put out compared to your standard Call of Duty-wannabe FPS or Dead Space on the other side of the spectrum, now that companies like PlayFirst have put out devkits like Playground in order to make hidden object games with, for example. Less manpower, less development time, and more income.

Now note: this is the sort of stuff people would tinker around with while sitting in front of their office PCs just to while the time away. Now, I enjoy Plants vs. Zombies a good deal myself--probably because it was a casual game created by hardcore gamers--and I don't want to shy away from a casual game just because I'm hardcore, but come lunchtime at the office, while others were either busy killing each other in DOTA or managing stuff in Farmville and Pet Society, I'm usually the only one trying to perfect my CRS68K and StellaVanity runs. Heck, there were only two of us struggling to collect mats for building armor in MHFU back when it came out. What does that tell us about our modern demographic?

Personally--and I mean to take this with a grain of salt--the situation screams captain obvious. Lifestyles have changed and trends have as well; it's not something we can chalk up so easily to people getting lazier or whatnot, although there is a measure of truth in that too. With the advent of newer technology, tastes have been altered more and more over the years as new concepts and hardware came out, and I mean that on all fronts; not just gaming. It was the overall lifestyles of those living in countries or states wherein gamer demographics are present that changed.

And as was inevitable, everyone wanted to jump on the bandwagon. More people nowadays have better access to PCs than had ever been before, even in third-world countries like the one I live in. Heck, in fact where I live children from low-income families can find the time and money to play localized Korean-made MMOs in a PC shop; heaven knows how they're going to pay for school lunch the next day. And development wise, it's now easier for people to access PC game development through tools and devkits such as Game Maker or Torque, the former of which I personally use.

Now, gaming trends. I recently went to an arcade and looked around for any Espagaludas or GigaWings, and instead all I found were Initial Ds, Midnight Rs, a LOT of Time Crisis sequels and various rhythm games, along with your standard MvC2s and Tekken 6 BRs. Guess what shooters were available. That's right, Raiden Fighters Jet and Strikers 1945 II (Exarion's research has officially been vindicated ). Not even the arcades here want to carry things like DeathSmiles, Ibara or Mushi; they want Soul Calibur machines and Tekkens lined up end to end, right beside the light gun games. Ironically, very few Guilty Gear XXs or BlazBlues, but you get the idea (I haven't even seen a BlazBlue machine here yet).

Again, it must be mentioned: that's where the money is, and people need to eat too. But on the flip side, It seems people want more direct competition nowadays on arcade machines. Humans are social creatures, after all. Who doesn't crave a little interaction? The big reason a game series like Monster Hunter Freedom is relatively successful is because of the face-to-face interactivity it provides with other fellow "hunters", allowing for on-the-fly strategizing. And let's not forget the plethora of LAN games that Counter-Strike and WarCraft inspired (and arguably, those who went before them like Doom and Quake).

Now, all that I have mentioned doesn't really have anything much to say about shmups. I concerned myself with explaining current trends as I see it unfolding. The question is, how can shmups survive in this environment apart from being a niche genre?

For one, here's a link I retrieved from EDGE Online regarding a 2008 convention of STG developers in Japan. It may have been posted here before, so please excuse me if this is a re-posting (although in fairness, if it had bee posted here before then why was it not mentioned on this very thread?)

http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/sta ... 80%98em-up

Even the Japanese developers themselves are getting skittish over the state of one of their apparently most popular genres.

You guys might also want to take note of a recent shmup MMO that is currently on the market: Valkyrie Sky.

http://valkyriesky.gamekiss.com/main.jce

It's interesting how the Koreans are now exploring these older genres for inclusion in ther MMOs; we currently have Arad Senki (beat-'em-up) and MapleStory (sidescroller).

Well, that's my two cents for now. Going back to work...

[Ed Oscuro]

I disagree. It's always a niche that creates innovative games.

First understand creating an iterative process, then complaining about it

[gray117]

Even the Japanese developers themselves are getting skittish over the state of one of their apparently most popular genres.

I agree with a lot of what you said. The danger of a niche genre is that devlopers find it harder to acquire funds to develop for that niche, especially if that niche looks like its so small that it is potentially endangered.

It was also slightly alarming that Japanese games developers are most of the key players in this genre and have always traditionally had very limited/slow moving ideas towards change - especailly with online development and distribution - exactly the areas you find largely find shmups gaining visibility and reputation. Whilst it's great that amateur and personal funds can be poured into enthusiastic niche developments this is no way to really preserve the market, nor gain the respect, solidarity and recognition, that this niche both deserves and needs. You've got to produce something from a stance that Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo would feel like they were missing out on if they did not sign up to it...

Now, I think that edge article is somewhat dated, but at the time it was a perfect demonstration of how difficult it was to acquire funding for such projects. I think now there are several clears signs from the industry that there is a willingness to explore this niche and that consumer trends [looking at Japanese 360 live downloaded games particularly] do support more flexible channels of distribution and marketing even for niche markets.

As long as this momentum continues, I think we can coax the niche into a solid postion - a position where its still relatively small, but not endangered - something that I think is not only realistic, but also suitable for the genre.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I would think that everybody here whos writing from the Euro zone would like me want shmups to get abit more popular then they are atm just so we can actually get some shmups sent to our part of the world instead of been USAs poor relation when it comes to japanese localisations

[Udderdude]

All the talk from the big name Japanese developers is pretty scary. I'm afraid it will just come down to "Dumbing down the entire genre for western/casual audiences" versus "Staying in business at all". :/

[RHE]

I disagree. It's always a niche that creates innovative games.

First understand creating an iterative process, then complaining about it

[Exarion]

All the talk from the big name Japanese developers is pretty scary. I'm afraid it will just come down to "Dumbing down the entire genre for western/casual audiences" versus "Staying in business at all". :/

You mean like what happened to adventure games? Just look at that genre now, how many games are based upon the sierra style (king's quest, etc.) and how many are based upon the lucas arts style (monkey island, etc.)? The only game left that uses the much harder sierra style of gameplay is The Silver Lining, which has been in development for 10 years is still not out. Though we need to get more people, we can't let that happen.

[Udderdude]

All the talk from the big name Japanese developers is pretty scary. I'm afraid it will just come down to "Dumbing down the entire genre for western/casual audiences" versus "Staying in business at all". :/

You mean like what happened to adventure games? Just look at that genre now, how many games are based upon the sierra style (king's quest, etc.) and how many are based upon the lucas arts style (monkey island, etc.)? The only game left that uses the much harder sierra style of gameplay is The Silver Lining, which has been in development for 10 years is still not out. Though we need to get more people, we can't let that happen.

I think with point and click adventure games, they reached a market saturation point that couldn't be overcome. That and most of the "difficulty" just came from random trial-and-error and the gameplay couldn't really go anywhere or evolve.

[DEL]

I don't think shoot'em ups became such a niche genre because of the points listed in the thread opener. My explanation is thus:
* They are not available (on the whole) on non NTSC-J game consoles.

* The advent of SFII and the huge revenue it created for operators led most developers to try to ride the VS Fighting game wave - SNK being a prime example.
* The advent of better psuedo 3 game engines & graphics - people thinking that "3D is better".

Both the above elements occured at roughly the same time (1992) A double-whammy effect on shooters.

Unless you're 30 to 42 years old or very well informed, you won't have experienced the pre-1992 Golden Era of shoot'em ups in arcades (unless you live in Japan). Hence many younger people stumble across this genre from mainstream PAL releases like Ikaruga, Gradius V or R-Type Final or Raiden.

Pointman wrote;

It is just well remembered by a certain age bracket or by some adventurous gamer who is bored of the countless football or Fiddy Cent games out there. Today is the age of nostalgia.

Not at all for me. It has evolved. Scoring engines are now applied where it used to be just a survival exercise.
I'll leave the nostalgia to other people. 2D shooters still need to be 2D. They are 2D for a reason.

[cul]

Pointman wrote;

It is just well remembered by a certain age bracket or by some adventurous gamer who is bored of the countless football or Fiddy Cent games out there. Today is the age of nostalgia.

Not at all for me. It has evolved. Scoring engines are now applied where it used to be just a survival exercise.
I'll leave the nostalgia to other people. 2D shooters still need to be 2D. They are 2D for a reason.

I agree. I can hardly play any game older than 1997/1998 because the feeling isn't there, it's too rigid, and I never have that "nostalgia feeling". I have no pleasure playing old games (there are rare exceptions of course), even worse, when I play games from my childhood (for instance like duke nukem 1, 2 or 3D), the gaming experience 10 years later is totally ruining my memories because every times I feel disappointed by the huge difference between my embellished memories, and the harsh reality of video games who didn't age well (still in my opinion).

[DEL]

Well thanks for agreeing cul, but while its true that some old games haven't aged well, some actually have. I play both new and old shooters to this day. My point was that I don't play old games for the sake of nostalgia. I play them to improve old scores and distances.
I play Cave shooters, but every now and then I get tired of threading the eye of a needle for the 1,000th time through remarkably similar bullet curtains and hanker for a change of pace and play old arcade classics.
There's room for the quality old titles too. You've just got to know which ones they are.

[MmSadda]

Seeing as I just got into shmups recently, and still really blow at them. Hopefully this will be something of a valid response from an outsider -

Shmups are an absolute rush to play, especially to play well. Particularly in arcade form, they're pure adrenaline without a pause button.

As such, they tend to not be exceptionally long games.

therein lies the problem for most people - most people want to play games that will challenge them, and on the other hand, most people feel like they can use as many credits as they want on a shmup. Think about it - if you weren't trying to play for score, or to see how far you could get on one credit, how fun would a shmup actually be?

It's basically a question of mindset, in that regard - Some people want to seek out a challenge, and those people tend to like shmups much moreso than people who are plenty happy playing games with frequent save points, the ability to pause, etc.

[DEL]

Good point MmSadda.

Anyway, when it comes down to the main 'niche' question, it really all boils down to one thing -> accessibility.
2D Shoot'em ups have been buried by the developers and distributors. So much so that a lot of people don't even know they exist.

I was playing Mush in my local arcade a few years back and this guy came in and watched. He asked; "What kind of game is this?" I replied; "Its a shoot'em up". He answered; "What like Halo?"

He was looking at a 2D shooting game and STILL he couldn't connect the dots

[gray117]

"Its a shoot'em up". He answered; "What like Halo?"[/i]

He was looking at a 2D shooting game and STILL he couldn't connect the dots

So true you'd boggle; but this is exactly what happened with publishers and even developers a couple of years ago. I know younger coders who had no idea what even games like metal slug are - you reckon they had a clue what dodonpachi is? ...

[gs68]

Tetris, instead of shmups could've been really popular in the arcades back in the day

In a way, it was and still is, in Japan, thanks to Sega Tetris and the TGM series.

Going back to the topic at hand, I think what contributes to shmups being niche is the challenge. Go to a highly-viewed video of say, DFK or Futari's TLBs, and note how many comments say something along the lines of "man this shit's impossible I'll never be able to do that" or "lol those crazy Japanese".

Shmups are not a genre for everyone. Being able to 1L0BC the first stage of a Touhou game will have people thinking you're some sort of god--people who can't even pass the second stage on Easy even with all 3 continues. Not everyone has the dedication and patience to be able to 1CC or loop shooters--many would rather play through easier, longer, more disposable games, play those even simpler casual puzzle games, or go multiplayer.

Yes, there are efforts to make the genre more accessible--making a glorified novice mode (Futari 360) and introduce a slowdown buttton (Espgaluda), for instance. There's still another step though: convincing people that not every shooter (especially of the "danmaku" variety) is some sort of killfest where you lose all 3 lives in 3 seconds flat. I once posted a status update on Twitter about me going off to play Futari on Novice mode, and a friend was like "you're kidding right? Isn't that like the hardest shooter ever?"

So now the question is how to implement an easy mode AND make it appealing to beginners.

[cul]

Yes, there are efforts to make the genre more accessible--making a glorified novice mode (Futari 360) and introduce a slowdown buttton (Espgaluda), for instance. There's still another step though: convincing people that not every shooter (especially of the "danmaku" variety) is some sort of killfest where you lose all 3 lives in 3 seconds flat. I once posted a status update on Twitter about me going off to play Futari on Novice mode, and a friend was like "you're kidding right? Isn't that like the hardest shooter ever?"

So now the question is how to implement an easy mode AND make it appealing to beginners.

Yeah, I remember one guy posting a 1CC screenshot of dondonpachi on MAME on an emulation forum a couple of years ago, and most of the people were like "this is fake", "you can't one life this game if you don't have a flux capacitor to bend space and time", "derpderpderp", etc.

But I can't honestly see what shmups companies can do more than providing a novice mode, because honestly anyone can one credit futari on original novice.

[drunkninja24]

I think another issue is that a lot of people nowadays simply have no idea that the genre is even still around. Where I live, we have weekly fighter tournaments in a local game shop/LAN center, and I always bring some shmups to play since a few of us there are fans of them as well. Almost every week, we'll get at least 1-2 people looking at us playing as they're walking by and say something along the lines of "what is this game? This looks awesome!" Granted, a big draw is probably the fact that we play with a tate setup, which tends to turn heads a bit more. But they always seem amazed to hear that the games are actually fairly recent, and they usually ask how we got the games as well. So in a lot of ways, I really think one of the main things the genre needs is just a little exposure outside of online videos, articles, and such.

[gs68]

Going back to the whole YouTube thing, a common misconception of "godly" players is that that's how they play every game, and as such are perfect, and as such think the goal is to be able to play like that every time.

Even so-called gods make mistakes too. I bet the average joe who walks into a superplay of RFJ would be surprised to know what an everyday run of RFJ by high-scoring players looks like. (Well, not always that bad, but you get an idea of how common silly mistakes are.)

[S20-TBL]

Great posts, all. I do agree with the apparently general consensus that it needs more exposure. But perhaps what may also be needed is for the genre to innovate. I don't mean "innovate" in any sense that the genre's core gameplay doesn't remain what it is anymore and completely changes into another type of game (case in point, someone suggested a shmup in which you are the bullet and you have to ram yourself into the enemy--not exactly a shmup anymore).

For one thing, here is a ripe design challenge presented to us. Is it absolutely necessary that almost all modern shmups be bullet hell variants? Can't they be more like, say, U.N. Squadron/Area 88, Strikers or Cho Ren Sha in which twitch playing and fast reflexes matter a little bit more than being able to squeeze between a barrage of tightly packed Pepto-Bismol pills? Or maybe anticipation, careful planning and strategy like Einhander's weapon management or R-Type's maze navigation? What about slightly unorthodox playing styles? Your ship could be using a boomerang (hats off to the SHMUP-DEV forumers who come here too, you guys rock) instead of your standard machine guns and lasers to kill things, among other means. Or bosses could be fought and killed using radically different methods than just plain shooting the core.

I'm personally intrigued at what G-rev is doing, especially what they did with Senko no Ronde DUO. A shmup that manages to combine the best of danmaku, arena shooting and a certain long-forgotten fighting game by the moniker of Psychic Force? Grant me that any day over another CAVE offering. Not to say that I don't like CAVE games or danmaku in general; it's just that we're rather oversaturated with bullet hells nowadays (similar to the oversaturation of Gradius and R-Type wannabes back in the 90's--deja vu?) and it's IMHO one of the factors contributing to the fast decline of shmups into strict niche gaming positions.

Many people here have observed the same phenomenon; namely, that a single video of merciless curtain fire dodging can turn off an ungodly amount of potential fans. Can we really blame people if they find Superplays intimidating? What if, instead of merely attempting to alter the customer paradigm, we change the design paradigm as well in order to cure the stagnation and isolation? Again, I'm not saying we need drastic, sweeping changes to the whole concept of shmups, to the point that they simply could not be categorized in any way, shape or form as shmups anymore (as someone else in this forum wisely pointed out). But as Yuji Naka's innovation philosophy goes, what if we only need to add just the right amounts (and the right kinds!) of change to make it happen?

Just food for thought. Back to work...

[gray117]

Great posts, all. I do agree with the apparently general consensus that it needs more exposure. But perhaps what may also be needed is for the genre to innovate

Agreed, since none of the current developers can afford to buy this exposure; you depend upon a degree by which content and word of mouth raises exposure through saturation. The most efficient way to do this is through innovation; think platformers like braid/'splsion man/Little Big Planet all of which generate a buzz around a genre ... The danger is that saturation could occur through the development of crap, and its too hard to distinguish a good game from a bad one.

... One note about barrier to entry/'scary' bullet hell; we've seen geometry wars do pretty well in this respect for arena shoots; I think there are key thematic/aesthetics that could appeal to westerners more. But yep more in general would be good - and ultimately I think it is coming.

As to barrier to entry Tate and 4:3 aspect is a problem ... I think mainstream gamers are put off by something thats 'not fullscreen' and/or requires them to rotate tvs. I would liken it to a similar stigma of subtitled fillms - which is a shame, but thats the way people think.